[Vacation - valid untill July 2014] Central Asia 2020

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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:13 pm

Cmon - gameplay feedback or stamp ;)
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby DiM on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:19 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:Cmon - gameplay feedback or stamp ;)

it doesn't really work like that :)

for example i can't give any pertinent gameplay feedback because the map is too disturbing to my eyes to be able to focus on analysing the gameplay.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby cairnswk on Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:15 pm

not gameplay feedback...but colours...i can see what you are trying guys...and for someone like myself without CB limitations it doesn't look too bad, although i too like Dim find it a struggle to look at.
I have also just examined it for CB (D and P) and sorry...to me it doesn't pass in this respect. i don't know, but have you tried changing those white borders to black/shades of grey so it becomes less demanding on the eyes.

ON your sea Control legend....i think perhaps better would be -> reverts to 3 neutral at the start/beginning of your next turn...there is room enough in there.

in Bonuses...if hold -> change to ....if held - sounds better english :)
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby pamoa on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:14 pm

DiM wrote:for example i can't give any pertinent gameplay feedback because the map is too disturbing to my eyes to be able to focus on analysing the gameplay.
so then
cairnswk wrote:...and for someone like myself without CB limitations it doesn't look too bad, although I too like Dim find it a struggle to look at.I have also just examined it for CB (D and P) and sorry...to me it doesn't pass in this respect.
no need of colours to read the map as regions' borders are marked by double line to differentiate it form simple territories borders and you have a minimap to read the bonuses
cairnswk wrote:I don't know, but have you tried changing those white borders to black/shades of grey so it becomes less demanding on the eyes.
I'll try something on next version but I really prefer to have some gamplay feedback before working more on graphics
cairnswk wrote:On your sea Control legend....i think perhaps better would be -> reverts to 3 neutral at the start/beginning of your next turn...there is room enough in there.
in Bonuses...if hold -> change to ....if held - sounds better English :)
It will be done
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby cairnswk on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:48 pm

cairnswk wrote:...and for someone like myself without CB limitations it doesn't look too bad, although I too like Dim find it a struggle to look at.I have also just examined it for CB (D and P) and sorry...to me it doesn't pass in this respect.
no need of colours to read the map as regions' borders are marked by double line to differentiate it form simple territories borders and you have a minimap to read the bonuses

Ah pamoa, that reply doesn't make sense, if there is no need of colours, why have you used them? If you're going to have colour then make it functional for everyone.
I am well aware that regional borders are double lined..etc etc..what i am saying is that i too struggle with the overal colour scheme on my eyes, and that could be fixed by changing the colour of the border lines. i don't know. i will have to wait and see what yo-u come up with. :)
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby pamoa on Tue May 01, 2012 1:57 am

as I said I'll work on border colours
but I really need to have some comment on gameplay
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby swimmerdude99 on Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 am

The only thing i have to say right now is too many territs.... I think there need to be less.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby pamoa on Thu May 03, 2012 1:05 pm

swimmerdude99 wrote:The only thing i have to say right now is too many territs.... I think there need to be less.
?!? It is intended to be a big map with a lot of territories
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu May 10, 2012 1:17 pm

I will run some gameplay numbers over the next few days and get back to you.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby pamoa on Thu May 10, 2012 1:47 pm

thanks for your help
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby isaiah40 on Thu May 10, 2012 3:16 pm

cairnswk wrote:I am well aware that regional borders are double lined..etc etc..what i am saying is that i too struggle with the overal colour scheme on my eyes, and that could be fixed by changing the colour of the border lines.


This. I know you want to concentrate on gameplay, at the same time the borders are a gameplay clarity issue. I suggest making those double borders a dark color to help out.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby nolefan5311 on Sun May 13, 2012 7:43 pm

I'm not having an issue with the borders right now, though I imagine that will come up after the GP stamp has been issued, so you may want to work on that. One graphic issue I see that will have to be changed is that you need more clearly defined symbols for the Refineries and the Tankers. Trying to locate them right now is too hard.

One of the main issues I see right now that I can't quite put my finger on...are the capitals/metropolis independent of the region they're in? As in, are they separate regions? For example, there is a capital on Kiev. Is the Kiev region ONLY the capital? Or is that capital independent of the Kiev region (and won't be included in the Eastern European bonus)? Another example...Abu Dhabi is going to have 3 armies on it (region army, refinery, and tanker)? How is that going to fit? Where are you going to fit the army for the Uprising on Yerevan?

Is Nepal an unplayable region? If so, it needs to be a different color on the minimap to differentiate it from Kashmir and Arunachal. Or maybe Kashmir and Arunachal need to be different colors to show they're in play.

As far as bonuses are concerned:

Middle East can probably be increased to at least 4 and Russia can probably be increased by 1 or 2.
Kazakhstan needs to be decreased by at least 3. The spreadsheet indicates it should be a +9.
Central Asia needs to be reduced to a +5.

The Refinery and Tanker bonuses are going to have be modified. On a map with this many terts there's over a 34% chance I drop the refinery +4. That number should be under 3% so you're going to have to change the bonus structure there (spreadsheet indicates that requiring 11 to be held to trigger the bonus puts the drop probability under 2.5%). And you have the same problem with the tankers. Distribution is a problem too. Three refineries are included in the 6 Eastern Europe territories, and it borders 3 more tankers. India and AFPAK, a combined 15 regions, has 2 tankers and no refineries.

I haven't run the bonus drop probability for any of the other bonuses yet, but the above is more than enough to keep your time occupied for a little while :). This is a very interesting map and could be a lot of fun. Looking forward to seeing your changes.
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Re: [Vacation valid til Dec 2012] Struggle for Oil: Central

Postby nolefan5311 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:10 am

MOVED

It appears development on this map has stalled. Once an update has been made, let a CA know to get this moved back into the Foundry.
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Re: [Abandoned] Struggle for Oil: Central Asia

Postby Raskholnikov on Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:07 am

To the Foundry Masters:

After spending 8 months in Iraq, I am back in Vancouver. I am really interested in working with pamoa in finalising this very topical map, and he is interested in this as well. Pamoa will re-post the latest version of the map again, and I will go through the foundry comments re:gameplay, reply to them and make the appropriate changes. Meanwhile, pamoa will work on the color scheme to make it acceptable to all players. Could you please move the tread from abandoned to active?

Many thanks,

Raskholnikov
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Re: [Abandoned] Struggle for Oil: Central Asia

Postby cairnswk on Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:13 am

Yay! Best wishes :)
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Re: [Abandoned] Struggle for Oil: Central Asia

Postby pamoa on Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:13 am

latest images
v06s
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v05s
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Last edited by pamoa on Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:25 pm

I will have to put this back in my signature.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby Raskholnikov on Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:56 pm

Hi,

Thanks so much for your input. Here are some preliminary answers to your comments:


nolefan5311 wrote:I'm not having an issue with the borders right now, though I imagine that will come up after the GP stamp has been issued, so you may want to work on that. One graphic issue I see that will have to be changed is that you need more clearly defined symbols for the Refineries and the Tankers. Trying to locate them right now is too hard.

The symbols fit in with the entire "Ops Room" theme. We could make them slightly bigger and use thicker lines....

One of the main issues I see right now that I can't quite put my finger on...are the capitals/metropolis independent of the region they're in? As in, are they separate regions? For example, there is a capital on Kiev. Is the Kiev region ONLY the capital? Or is that capital independent of the Kiev region (and won't be included in the Eastern European bonus)? Another example...Abu Dhabi is going to have 3 armies on it (region army, refinery, and tanker)? How is that going to fit? Where are you going to fit the army for the Uprising on Yerevan?

No, the capitals and metropolis ARE the region - like the capitals in Napoleon 1812 - Paris is both capital and region.

In the same way, symbols only define the properties of the region they are on - they are not independent of it. So, Abu Dabi is one region, with one and only army on it, which is characterised by owning both a refinery and a tanker.



Is Nepal an unplayable region? If so, it needs to be a different color on the minimap to differentiate it from Kashmir and Arunachal. Or maybe Kashmir and Arunachal need to be different colors to show they're in play.

Nepal and Bhutan are both unplayable. They are the color of the unplayable areas in Europe and Africa, and have no army numbers on it. We could try to have Kashmir and Arunchal of a different color....


As far as bonuses are concerned:

Middle East can probably be increased to at least 4 and Russia can probably be increased by 1 or 2.

ME is very easily defendable (two boundaries). Increasing the bonus could create an unfair advantage for someone who could quickly consolidate it.

Russia already gives the highest bonus among active starting regions. We could increase it to 7 though...


Kazakhstan needs to be decreased by at least 3. The spreadsheet indicates it should be a +9.
Central Asia needs to be reduced to a +5.

The entire goal of the game is not to have players just consolidate a region and play defensively, but invade Central Asia and take control of tankers / refineries there as well as prevent others from consolidating either Kasakhstan or Central Asia. The way to achieve this is to mark up the bonuses for both . But, if everyone insists, they could go down to 10/5.

The Refinery and Tanker bonuses are going to have be modified. On a map with this many terts there's over a 34% chance I drop the refinery +4. That number should be under 3% so you're going to have to change the bonus structure there (spreadsheet indicates that requiring 11 to be held to trigger the bonus puts the drop probability under 2.5%). And you have the same problem with the tankers. Distribution is a problem too. Three refineries are included in the 6 Eastern Europe territories, and it borders 3 more tankers. India and AFPAK, a combined 15 regions, has 2 tankers and no refineries.

I need to check with pamoa on the initial status of the Capitals. My original understanding was that all capitals start as neutrals. If this is the case, then drop probability is irrelevant since no bonuses for tankers / refineries are avaialable until players conquer and hold a Capital. I will revert on this once I check.

The reason is that India and Afpak border right on the Central Asia / Kazakhstan regions with lots of bonus territories, while Eastern Europe is very far away from it. So this is done on purpose to balance the play. This will also push the India / Afpak players to move ASAP into the Central Asia / Kazakhstan region, which is the purpose of the entire game.


I haven't run the bonus drop probability for any of the other bonuses yet, but the above is more than enough to keep your time occupied for a little while :). This is a very interesting map and could be a lot of fun. Looking forward to seeing your changes.


I hope this addresses some of your concerns. Thanks.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:22 pm

Just discussed this with pamoa.

All capitals (required for tankers refineries bonus) and metropolis (+1 autodeploy) will be 4 neutrals at the start. The uprisings and terrorists will be part of the freely distributed territories at the start, which will now number 63.

No tanker or refinery bonus will be given out until a player conquers a +4 capital, thus taking care of the lucky drop problem.

I hope this addresses your concern.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby iancanton on Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:16 pm

nice to see this one back in the main foundry workshop!

Raskholnikov wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:As far as bonuses are concerned:

Middle East can probably be increased to at least 4 and Russia can probably be increased by 1 or 2.

ME is very easily defendable (two boundaries). Increasing the bonus could create an unfair advantage for someone who could quickly consolidate it.

Russia already gives the highest bonus among active starting regions. We could increase it to 7 though...

the map is supposed to be about oil mastery, but the balance of oil wealth seems to have changed by too much to be credible, especially since saudi arabia has only 1 region while similarly-sized iran and turkey have 6 each. give more weight to the middle east by adding more regions and refineries. i suggest jeddah (saudi arabia's second city), dammam (saudi arabia's oil capital), doha (the capital of qatar, possibly the most influential small country in the world), dubai (the biggest port in the middle east) and kuwait (having the third largest oil reserves in the middle east, the reason that it was conquered by iraq and therefore a very strange omission). of course, the bonus will need to increase.

Raskholnikov wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:Kazakhstan needs to be decreased by at least 3. The spreadsheet indicates it should be a +9.
Central Asia needs to be reduced to a +5.

The entire goal of the game is not to have players just consolidate a region and play defensively, but invade Central Asia and take control of tankers / refineries there as well as prevent others from consolidating either Kasakhstan or Central Asia. The way to achieve this is to mark up the bonuses for both . But, if everyone insists, they could go down to 10/5.

while central asia has a huge bonus for only 4 regions, kazakhstan has a similar central location but so many regions that it is virtually impossible to hold and therefore most sensible players will avoid attempting this bonus, which is surely not the intention. in an optimistic future, it's possible to see kazakhstan with almost as much wealth and influence as, say, iran or saudi arabia currently have, but certainly not more. a sensible number of regions is therefore 4 or 5, given that it has no natural defensive barriers, but a bonus that is high enough to encourage players to develop this area.

ngari and nagqu can logically disappear and be merged with lhasa, since they are only small, unimportant towns with no significant industry, no oil reserves and no particular reason to feature on this map. similarly, herat and kandahar can disappear and be merged with kabul. incidentally, why have u stopped kabul from having a border with aksu?

this is an ambitious map that is accurate in some of the small details. however, i wonder whether u're trying to do too much with the map, by including local conflicts such as the caucasus, arunachal and kashmir. if u made tblisi and yerevan unplayable, then u'd have more sorely-needed space for the legend. +3 extra for kashmir is also a bit excessive on an oil conflict map for a single region of little strategic importance that has no oil.

what can the US 5th fleet actually bombard? it's confusing to have a bombard line that includes some of the caspian sea tankers, at the same time as the legend says that the bombard range is the indian ocean and kashmir.

Raskholnikov wrote:The uprisings and terrorists will be part of the freely distributed territories at the start, which will now number 63.

why not start the uprisings as n1 neutrals, as implied by the latest version, to avoid players from suffering too much if allocated many uprisings at the start? if all of the above are done, then i think the starting locations will total 52 or 53, which are golden numbers.

ian. :)
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia

Postby Beko the Great on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:50 am

I love the concept! This is a kind of map that is missing on conquer club!

The artwork needs work but seems to be going in the right direction.

Two notes though:
Consider making Kashmir part of both india and pakistan,
Add some impassables: Himalayas, volga river, caucasus, indo river, etc. To make territ bonus with lesser borders and easier to defend. This would make bonus like Central Asia and Kasakstan more tempting ;)

Cheers!
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia 2020 [v.6small march25 p.

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:02 am

Thanks so much for your detailed comments:

iancanton wrote:nice to see this one back in the main foundry workshop!

Raskholnikov wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:As far as bonuses are concerned:

Middle East can probably be increased to at least 4 and Russia can probably be increased by 1 or 2.

ME is very easily defendable (two boundaries). Increasing the bonus could create an unfair advantage for someone who could quickly consolidate it.

Russia already gives the highest bonus among active starting regions. We could increase it to 7 though...

the map is supposed to be about oil mastery, but the balance of oil wealth seems to have changed by too much to be credible, especially since saudi arabia has only 1 region while similarly-sized iran and turkey have 6 each. give more weight to the middle east by adding more regions and refineries. i suggest jeddah (saudi arabia's second city), dammam (saudi arabia's oil capital), doha (the capital of qatar, possibly the most influential small country in the world), dubai (the biggest port in the middle east) and kuwait (having the third largest oil reserves in the middle east, the reason that it was conquered by iraq and therefore a very strange omission). of course, the bonus will need to increase.

Raskholnikov wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:Kazakhstan needs to be decreased by at least 3. The spreadsheet indicates it should be a +9.
Central Asia needs to be reduced to a +5.

The entire goal of the game is not to have players just consolidate a region and play defensively, but invade Central Asia and take control of tankers / refineries there as well as prevent others from consolidating either Kasakhstan or Central Asia. The way to achieve this is to mark up the bonuses for both . But, if everyone insists, they could go down to 10/5.

while central asia has a huge bonus for only 4 regions, kazakhstan has a similar central location but so many regions that it is virtually impossible to hold and therefore most sensible players will avoid attempting this bonus, which is surely not the intention. in an optimistic future, it's possible to see kazakhstan with almost as much wealth and influence as, say, iran or saudi arabia currently have, but certainly not more. a sensible number of regions is therefore 4 or 5, given that it has no natural defensive barriers, but a bonus that is high enough to encourage players to develop this area.

The game is not about oil reserves as such, but about the ability to move and refine the oil. The number of tankers and refineries are pretty close to representing reality. The original map we used for this actually displays them. This explains why we have quite a few refineries in Central Asia, but only a few in the Middle East. As to Kazakhstan, the high bonus number is designed exactly to ensure that no player will easily be allowed to consolidate that bonus, and thus to attract players to move into Central Asia and play "The Game".


ngari and nagqu can logically disappear and be merged with lhasa, since they are only small, unimportant towns with no significant industry, no oil reserves and no particular reason to feature on this map. similarly, herat and kandahar can disappear and be merged with kabul. incidentally, why have u stopped kabul from having a border with aksu?

The balance of the game is having 3 regions with 6 territories and 3 with 10. Kabul is a capital so we wanted not to have it directly as a border territory.


this is an ambitious map that is accurate in some of the small details. however, i wonder whether u're trying to do too much with the map, by including local conflicts such as the caucasus, arunachal and kashmir. if u made tblisi and yerevan unplayable, then u'd have more sorely-needed space for the legend. +3 extra for kashmir is also a bit excessive on an oil conflict map for a single region of little strategic importance that has no oil.

Since this will be a large map, we have enough space for the legend as is. I agree we could reduce Kashmir to +2; this simply reflects that India, China and Pakistan have fought wars over it and it is a key strategic area in Central Asia.

what can the US 5th fleet actually bombard? it's confusing to have a bombard line that includes some of the caspian sea tankers, at the same time as the legend says that the bombard range is the indian ocean and kashmir.

We will try to clarify this.


Raskholnikov wrote:The uprisings and terrorists will be part of the freely distributed territories at the start, which will now number 63.

why not start the uprisings as n1 neutrals, as implied by the latest version, to avoid players from suffering too much if allocated many uprisings at the start? if all of the above are done, then i think the starting locations will total 52 or 53, which are golden numbers.

Thanks for all the good tips; we will take them into account as we develop the next version of the map.


ian. :)
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:07 am

Beko the Great wrote:I love the concept! This is a kind of map that is missing on conquer club!

Thanks for the comments and for the enthusiasm!

The artwork needs work but seems to be going in the right direction.

If you have any specific thoughts please do share them.

Two notes though:
Consider making Kashmir part of both india and pakistan,

That's why it starts as a neutral and gives bonus points to either of them if they can consolidate their region and hold Kashmir with it.

Add some impassables: Himalayas, volga river, caucasus, indo river, etc. To make territ bonus with lesser borders and easier to defend. This would make bonus like Central Asia and Kasakstan more tempting ;)

We have Nepal and Bhutan as impassables, as well as Mongolia. Adding mountains and rivers barriers would be somewhat anachronistic for the 21st century modes of transportation and would make the map too heavy.

Cheers!


Thanks for all your time and suggestions.
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Re: Struggle for Oil: Central Asia

Postby Oneyed on Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:00 am

just now I "found" this map and I must say I like it. it has great potention.
I did not read all 14 pages, so some my notices could be mentioned time ago.

when I look at map I have feeling that it is after nuclear catastrophe. what is good, but graphics needs to polish.

map is from 2020, so why there is shown only power of usa? I think china, india will be great powers not only in asia, but in the world.
it is confused where can fleets bombard. maybe you could try another colour of borders which indicate where can they bombard...

are metropolis needed? even most of them are capitals?

if this would be struggle for oil it is more logic (for me) to have any bonus for holding tankers + rafineries instead + capital.

looking forward on this.

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