[Abandoned] - Vietnam

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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:20 am

MarshalNey wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:Well, first off I can't read anything. The font is a bad choice and, especially in the mekong delta, is completely illegible.


I can read it- it's not super clear and the font is way too small, but 'illegible'? That's a bit harsh.

The draft could work, gameplay-wise. The legend bonuses are too small to read. You'll have to get rid of some of the flavor stuff and make the fonts much bigger.

Otherwise a very nice first go. =D>

PS - Use the 'BigImg' button to put tags around your image next time.


Well, the illegible bits are the white on white.
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby The Bison King on Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:07 pm

Has potential, looks like you have some interesting gameplay worked out. I hate the colors, but I'm sure that's something that can be worked on later.
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:00 pm

I like the idea of a Nam map.

However, The name that you have chosen is not the best, IMO.

First, The region, like just about any other, has seen many wars throughout history.

Second, The US never declared war. In most history books, it is described as a "police action", or "conflict".

"The Conflict" may be a good choice. I suggest some thinking on this. I am sure that you will come up with something better, than what you have now.

Your main problem is the shape of the country. It is one of those "skinny" ones that have not been attempted, because of that fact. Maybe you could do a side by side. This would allow you to enlarge things to a workable size. So to be clear, Cut the country in half. then put them side by side.
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby kengyin on Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:56 pm

i'll just make a note of all the suggestions
-make it more clearer: im not sure whether you are talking about the writing the colours or the whole thing in general
-font is too small: i'll try to fix this, but if i cant i might have to combine territories to save space
-legend bonuses too small: i might make the whole legend bigger eventually
-flavour: huh?
-wrong proportions: yeah i thought it meant 840 high. easy fix i think
-reduce number of territories: i probably will considering the trouble i had making the names fit, but not sure yet which ones to merge, because if i do it bad it might make the gameplay stale
-white on white: more like white on green but i see what you mean, i'll make this black
-bad colours: the text or the image? the text is definitely bad but i quite like the image
-bad name: i'll have to think about this
-side by side: but the total area wouldnt change much would it? if i enlarged it also then i wont have much room for the legend
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby kengyin on Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:55 am

i wont bother posting a picture after every detail i fix so heres what i have done so far. i have started fixing up the legend area, with the continent bonuses. yeah the black for north and white for south vietnam was rather unnecessary, so i have better colours now, contrasting colours (but not too contrasting) eg. yellow on blue and blue on red (using opposite colours would be too contrasting such as orange on blue or green on red). i upped the font from 7 to 10 for the numbers and to 8 for the words because thats the highest it can go in order for mekong river delta to fit. osaka is the best font for these purposes because it takes up less space, using other fonts would mean i would have to go even below size 8. its significantly better than before though
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby kengyin on Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:10 am

ok nevermind here is a picture. just the legend, i will do the rest later. the text seems to be the main problem right now
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby kengyin on Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:07 am

Image
version 1.1
-territory titles from sans 8 to osaka 9
-territory titles now with mildly contrasting colours thus increased legibility especially mekong river delta
-military briefing text changed to osaka 9 (i think or 8) with yellow, which i believe is clearly to read than white
-bonuses text changed to osaka 8 with also contrasting colours purple on light orange, blue on orange, black on pink, light blue on red, yellow on brown, white on purple, yellow on blue, red on light blue, dark yellow on green, black on light green.
-bonuses numbers changed to osaka 10 with same colour scheme as text, now very easy to view

goals accomplished in this minor update
-text bigger and easier to read, less straining on the eyes
-better colour contrast also easier to read a huge improvement graphically

well thats graphic improvements how about gameplay? how developed do they need to be in order to move on anyway? remember i havent been here for long. because those things get covered in depth later on so how good does it need to be now? just wondering
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby natty dread on Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:24 am

The bright and saturated colours are the (graphically) weakest point of this map currently.

See how much easier on the eyes it can be if you just use less saturated colours:

Click image to enlarge.
image
Image
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:51 pm

Forgive me for being harsh, but I think a hefty amount of edits are in order:
1. The fonts all around are still too small.
2. The different colored territory names make things not so easy to read.
3. I don't understand the boats in the Gulf of Tonkin/South China Sea. Why are they there? What is their importance?
4. Some of the Mekong River Delta's (and maybe the Red River Delta's, too) territories should be merged to eliminate the confusing minimap in the bottom right hand corner.
5. Natty's right about the over-saturated colors. They are a bit harsh on the eyes.
6. The overall look of the map seems messy and pixelated. The impassables don't look like much of anything, and the river bridges that are all over the northern portion make things look really complicated.
7. The name of the map should be changed , like porky said.

This map has potential - don't give up! Don't take these comments like an attack against you, just trying to help the map get to CC standards ;)

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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby kengyin on Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:34 pm

notes after the 1.1 update
-too saturated
-fonts still too small
-territories should be merged
-too pixelated
-bridges too complicated
-change the name

got it
the boats are for the covert operation 34a whereby they landed south vietnamese commandoes to raid the north at strategic points
http://www.mrfa.org/Operation34a.htm
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Re: vietnam maps - a draft posted

Postby kengyin on Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:08 pm

i just changed the saturation by -20, i think its good not sure how much you changed it by. i think i will merge 4 pairs of territories so that i can have 72 left and thus after neutrals on saigon and hanoi then it will be a golden number, but i have yet to decide just which ones. if i merge them well i might be able to bump up every piece of text by 1 or maybe 2 sizes. once again if i merge it strategically i can also get rid of some bridges. its pixelated because of when i enlarged it several times, i suppose i can go over it with pencil that should do the trick for the borders. change the name, this is a bigger change and i might see the opinion of a number of others before changing to see if enough people think it is bad to justify the change. im not sure what you mean when you say the impassables dont look like much of anything
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:15 am

i am currently in the process of some major territorial changes, hopefully making the gameplay and graphics better at the same time in that bonuses between regions wont be so skewed and also less regions in congested areas such as the two deltas makes it easier to read and look at. i am planning to cut the number by 4 in the north and 4 in the south, so far i have reduced red river delta from 10 to 7 and also merged a pair of territories in the northeast. i plan to merge more in the northeast so to balance it out i am dividing up territories which have surplus space, anyways the ones im dividing are only 4 territory regions so they could use some more
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:12 am

i havent finished my improvements yet but i have for the top half so here
Image
i have made it less saturated by 20 points, the titles have been increased from 9 to 11 and most importantly i have cut 3 territories from red river delta and 3 territories from northeast and added 1 each to northwest and north central coast making a total of 4 territories cut. i also made the borderlines sharper by replacing the pixelated and blurry lines with pencil, taking up less space and is sharper.
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:16 am

oh and i havent come up with a good name to replace this yet so that will have to wait until the next update. also i cut one bridge but the rest i deemed necessary. sorry for not doing this in one post i just thought of it later
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby natty dread on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:18 am

What software are you using?
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:21 am

gimp ;) is it bad?
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby natty dread on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:27 am

Gimp is fine.

Remember to put everything on it's own layer though. Everything... background on one layer, land colour on one, borders on another, text on another... it will be much easier to make changes this way.
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:29 am

yup, i have 128 layers right now :)
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby natty dread on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:35 am

Sounds about right for a map this size.
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:33 pm

not really many comments since yesterday so i'll just continue doing my territories overhaul
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:16 am

Image
version 2.0
first the graphics updates
-every territory title changed from size 9 to size 11
-one bridge taken out in the north
-less saturated by 20 points
-thick blurry lines replaced with thin sharp pencil lines
-new red arrows indicating one way attacks
gameplay updates
-territory count reduced by 8 of the following
--northeast 11 to 8
--red river delta 10 to 7
--northwest 4 to 5
--north central coast 4 to 5
--south central coast 8 to 7
--operation 34a 4 to 6
--southeast 7 to 5
--central highlands 5 to 6
--mekong river delta 13 to 9
--ho chi minh trail stays the same
-bonuses adjusted following reduced territory count
--northeast 8 to 5
--northwest 3 to 4
--red river delta 9 to 6
--north central coast stays the same
--ho chi minh trail stays the same
--operation 34a 1 to 2
--south central coast stays the same
--central highlands stays the same
--southeast 6 to 5
--mekong river delta stays the same
--hanoi and saigon stay the same

goals accomplished in version 2.0
-easier to read texts
-larger territories, text not cramped and allows for the larger text
-clearer lines for better well, clarity
-more even gameplay
-not so confusing since less territories
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:44 am

Ditch the army circles... they make it exceptionally ugly.

I have a problem with the USA and landing craft in North Vietnam because landings didn't happen. The USA's military actions in the north were generally limited to air strikes, making North Vietnam the most heavily bombed country in the history of war.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:33 am

I like what you did with the color change.
The legend is not legible. It is too small. Just enlarge it so that it reaches all the way to the edge of the canvas. You can move that star up or down.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:14 pm

A few things for this update:
1. You still need to have the same color font for all territory names, so to make it easier to look at from afar and easier to read up close (the grey in North Central Coast is extremely hard to read).
2. I don't understand the one-ways in Ho Chi Minh Trail. They make that bonus area rather overpowered (though the small +2 bonus does a decent job to balance this)
3. I had trouble finding Hanoi and Saigon. You should highlight those more since they yield a +2 bonus.
4. The Operation 34a territories aren't purple, but it's purple in the legend...?
5. Good job with the Mekong River Delta close-up ;)

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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby kengyin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:57 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Ditch the army circles... they make it exceptionally ugly.

I have a problem with the USA and landing craft in North Vietnam because landings didn't happen. The USA's military actions in the north were generally limited to air strikes, making North Vietnam the most heavily bombed country in the history of war.

oh, operation 34a did happen, it was covert and it was landing south vietnamese commandoes it didnt really mention american troops landing though it was coordinated by them. it just wasnt a big deal since it wasnt landings like say d-day, they would have been at night and only small amounts of troops at a time to attack small targets like bridges and stuff. ;)
porkenbeans wrote:I like what you did with the color change.
The legend is not legible. It is too small. Just enlarge it so that it reaches all the way to the edge of the canvas. You can move that star up or down.

i will try but i have to make sure all the layers line up properly :)
Victor Sullivan wrote:A few things for this update:
1. You still need to have the same color font for all territory names, so to make it easier to look at from afar and easier to read up close (the grey in North Central Coast is extremely hard to read).
2. I don't understand the one-ways in Ho Chi Minh Trail. They make that bonus area rather overpowered (though the small +2 bonus does a decent job to balance this)
3. I had trouble finding Hanoi and Saigon. You should highlight those more since they yield a +2 bonus.
4. The Operation 34a territories aren't purple, but it's purple in the legend...?
5. Good job with the Mekong River Delta close-up ;)

-Sully

im afraid same colours fonts would make some bits hard to read, i mean dark on dark or light on light isnt very good thats what i had before kind of. different colours also helps to distinguish between regions. i could use some more opinions on this.

hmm, maybe but then australia is +2 with less territories and thats alright

yup, i will probably make them brighter, you are talking about on the legend right? or on the map as well?

oh well, they arent really any specific colour on the regular map but i thought it would be more coherent to have one colour for it in the legend so i thought purple which is a cool (as in cool or warm) colour and close to blue would suit. because i was making north vietnam have the reddy warm colours and the south have bluey cool colours making a nice contrast :) i could make them purple in the main map, but that would look a bit weird i think

thanks :D

summary of points
-ditch the army circles
-enlarge the legend (the whole thing)
-same colour fonts*
-ho chi minh trail over powered*
-highlight hanoi and saigon
-better link between purple in legend and colour of boats

*discussion to follow

discussion
these points are ones which have been suggested but i am not too sure about, remember i am an amateur so i dont have much experience but i am not too sure about these 2 points.
-is the colour fonts good now or should they all be the same colour?
-is ho chi minh trail overpowered?
if other people could share their opinions about these points it will be appreciated
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