[Abandoned] - Vietnam

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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:21 am

gimp ;) is it bad?
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby natty dread on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:27 am

Gimp is fine.

Remember to put everything on it's own layer though. Everything... background on one layer, land colour on one, borders on another, text on another... it will be much easier to make changes this way.
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:29 am

yup, i have 128 layers right now :)
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby natty dread on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:35 am

Sounds about right for a map this size.
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:33 pm

not really many comments since yesterday so i'll just continue doing my territories overhaul
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Re: vietnam map - comments on v1.1

Postby kengyin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:16 am

Image
version 2.0
first the graphics updates
-every territory title changed from size 9 to size 11
-one bridge taken out in the north
-less saturated by 20 points
-thick blurry lines replaced with thin sharp pencil lines
-new red arrows indicating one way attacks
gameplay updates
-territory count reduced by 8 of the following
--northeast 11 to 8
--red river delta 10 to 7
--northwest 4 to 5
--north central coast 4 to 5
--south central coast 8 to 7
--operation 34a 4 to 6
--southeast 7 to 5
--central highlands 5 to 6
--mekong river delta 13 to 9
--ho chi minh trail stays the same
-bonuses adjusted following reduced territory count
--northeast 8 to 5
--northwest 3 to 4
--red river delta 9 to 6
--north central coast stays the same
--ho chi minh trail stays the same
--operation 34a 1 to 2
--south central coast stays the same
--central highlands stays the same
--southeast 6 to 5
--mekong river delta stays the same
--hanoi and saigon stay the same

goals accomplished in version 2.0
-easier to read texts
-larger territories, text not cramped and allows for the larger text
-clearer lines for better well, clarity
-more even gameplay
-not so confusing since less territories
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:44 am

Ditch the army circles... they make it exceptionally ugly.

I have a problem with the USA and landing craft in North Vietnam because landings didn't happen. The USA's military actions in the north were generally limited to air strikes, making North Vietnam the most heavily bombed country in the history of war.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:33 am

I like what you did with the color change.
The legend is not legible. It is too small. Just enlarge it so that it reaches all the way to the edge of the canvas. You can move that star up or down.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:14 pm

A few things for this update:
1. You still need to have the same color font for all territory names, so to make it easier to look at from afar and easier to read up close (the grey in North Central Coast is extremely hard to read).
2. I don't understand the one-ways in Ho Chi Minh Trail. They make that bonus area rather overpowered (though the small +2 bonus does a decent job to balance this)
3. I had trouble finding Hanoi and Saigon. You should highlight those more since they yield a +2 bonus.
4. The Operation 34a territories aren't purple, but it's purple in the legend...?
5. Good job with the Mekong River Delta close-up ;)

-Sully
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby kengyin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:57 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Ditch the army circles... they make it exceptionally ugly.

I have a problem with the USA and landing craft in North Vietnam because landings didn't happen. The USA's military actions in the north were generally limited to air strikes, making North Vietnam the most heavily bombed country in the history of war.

oh, operation 34a did happen, it was covert and it was landing south vietnamese commandoes it didnt really mention american troops landing though it was coordinated by them. it just wasnt a big deal since it wasnt landings like say d-day, they would have been at night and only small amounts of troops at a time to attack small targets like bridges and stuff. ;)
porkenbeans wrote:I like what you did with the color change.
The legend is not legible. It is too small. Just enlarge it so that it reaches all the way to the edge of the canvas. You can move that star up or down.

i will try but i have to make sure all the layers line up properly :)
Victor Sullivan wrote:A few things for this update:
1. You still need to have the same color font for all territory names, so to make it easier to look at from afar and easier to read up close (the grey in North Central Coast is extremely hard to read).
2. I don't understand the one-ways in Ho Chi Minh Trail. They make that bonus area rather overpowered (though the small +2 bonus does a decent job to balance this)
3. I had trouble finding Hanoi and Saigon. You should highlight those more since they yield a +2 bonus.
4. The Operation 34a territories aren't purple, but it's purple in the legend...?
5. Good job with the Mekong River Delta close-up ;)

-Sully

im afraid same colours fonts would make some bits hard to read, i mean dark on dark or light on light isnt very good thats what i had before kind of. different colours also helps to distinguish between regions. i could use some more opinions on this.

hmm, maybe but then australia is +2 with less territories and thats alright

yup, i will probably make them brighter, you are talking about on the legend right? or on the map as well?

oh well, they arent really any specific colour on the regular map but i thought it would be more coherent to have one colour for it in the legend so i thought purple which is a cool (as in cool or warm) colour and close to blue would suit. because i was making north vietnam have the reddy warm colours and the south have bluey cool colours making a nice contrast :) i could make them purple in the main map, but that would look a bit weird i think

thanks :D

summary of points
-ditch the army circles
-enlarge the legend (the whole thing)
-same colour fonts*
-ho chi minh trail over powered*
-highlight hanoi and saigon
-better link between purple in legend and colour of boats

*discussion to follow

discussion
these points are ones which have been suggested but i am not too sure about, remember i am an amateur so i dont have much experience but i am not too sure about these 2 points.
-is the colour fonts good now or should they all be the same colour?
-is ho chi minh trail overpowered?
if other people could share their opinions about these points it will be appreciated
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:04 pm

What do you mean Ken "the layers must line up" ? :?
Don't you have the legend on its own layer ?
Just scale it up.

You have not optimized that layer, have you ?

If you did, you will need to make another one from scratch, detail will be lost if you scale up "optimized" text, because it is no longer a vector image.
Last edited by porkenbeans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby kengyin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:06 pm

i have one layer for the legend background and one for the stuff on top plus all the text. its probably possible to merge them but i wouldnt know how.....yet.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:10 pm

kengyin wrote:i have one layer for the legend background and one for the stuff on top plus all the text. its probably possible to merge them but i wouldnt know how.....yet.
lock those layers together, then scale them up together.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:11 pm

Do you use photoshop ?
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby kengyin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:13 pm

gimp, its similar though right?
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:19 pm

kengyin wrote:gimp, its similar though right?
Sorry, but I do not know a thing about gimp. I am afraid that you will probably have to redo everything except maybe the text. If you were scaling down you would not have any problems, but like I said, You will loose image quality when you try to scale something up. That is unless it is text that has not been optimized, as it is vector based and can be scaled to any size, up or down.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:25 pm

In photoshop you can scale up as many layers as you want together. You just click on one of the layers, then check the little box next to the layers that you want to include with the re-size. the box will display a little chain link. when it is on it is locked to the layer that is highlighted. it will scale or move together with that layer. You can link as many layers as you want. I do not know if GIMP is anything like this or not.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby kengyin on Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:55 am

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v2.1
-army circles removed
-purple tags added next to boats to relate to the purple in the legend
-side flag backgrounds narrowed
-thus main image width increased
-whole legend increased in size
-all text in legend size increased by 1 size
-yellow circles indicating hanoi and saigon
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby tokle on Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:12 am

porkenbeans wrote:In photoshop you can scale up as many layers as you want together. You just click on one of the layers, then check the little box next to the layers that you want to include with the re-size. the box will display a little chain link. when it is on it is locked to the layer that is highlighted. it will scale or move together with that layer. You can link as many layers as you want. I do not know if GIMP is anything like this or not.


gimp has the same function. It works in exactly the same way.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:01 am

kengyin wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:Ditch the army circles... they make it exceptionally ugly.

I have a problem with the USA and landing craft in North Vietnam because landings didn't happen. The USA's military actions in the north were generally limited to air strikes, making North Vietnam the most heavily bombed country in the history of war.

oh, operation 34a did happen, it was covert and it was landing south vietnamese commandoes it didnt really mention american troops landing though it was coordinated by them. it just wasnt a big deal since it wasnt landings like say d-day, they would have been at night and only small amounts of troops at a time to attack small targets like bridges and stuff. ;)


Well yeah, it may have happened but it was not a large scale thing, which is what this map is proposing it is. When players play this game, they're going to be invading the north in droves and that is totally contrary the American part of the vietnam war.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:00 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:
kengyin wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:Ditch the army circles... they make it exceptionally ugly.

I have a problem with the USA and landing craft in North Vietnam because landings didn't happen. The USA's military actions in the north were generally limited to air strikes, making North Vietnam the most heavily bombed country in the history of war.

oh, operation 34a did happen, it was covert and it was landing south vietnamese commandoes it didnt really mention american troops landing though it was coordinated by them. it just wasnt a big deal since it wasnt landings like say d-day, they would have been at night and only small amounts of troops at a time to attack small targets like bridges and stuff. ;)


Well yeah, it may have happened but it was not a large scale thing, which is what this map is proposing it is. When players play this game, they're going to be invading the north in droves and that is totally contrary the American part of the vietnam war.
IH is right. However they did bomb the shit out of Hanoi.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:11 pm

kengyin wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:A few things for this update:
1. You still need to have the same color font for all territory names, so to make it easier to look at from afar and easier to read up close (the grey in North Central Coast is extremely hard to read).
2. I don't understand the one-ways in Ho Chi Minh Trail. They make that bonus area rather overpowered (though the small +2 bonus does a decent job to balance this)
3. I had trouble finding Hanoi and Saigon. You should highlight those more since they yield a +2 bonus.
4. The Operation 34a territories aren't purple, but it's purple in the legend...?
5. Good job with the Mekong River Delta close-up ;)

-Sully

im afraid same colours fonts would make some bits hard to read, i mean dark on dark or light on light isnt very good thats what i had before kind of. different colours also helps to distinguish between regions. i could use some more opinions on this.

Just make HMCT lighter and use black or you could make Red River Delta and Northeast a tad darker and use white :)
kengyin wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:A few things for this update:
1. You still need to have the same color font for all territory names, so to make it easier to look at from afar and easier to read up close (the grey in North Central Coast is extremely hard to read).
2. I don't understand the one-ways in Ho Chi Minh Trail. They make that bonus area rather overpowered (though the small +2 bonus does a decent job to balance this)
3. I had trouble finding Hanoi and Saigon. You should highlight those more since they yield a +2 bonus.
4. The Operation 34a territories aren't purple, but it's purple in the legend...?
5. Good job with the Mekong River Delta close-up ;)

-Sully

yup, i will probably make them brighter, you are talking about on the legend right? or on the map as well?

I meant in the map. Maybe try making them a nice, bright color (you still need to desaturate your colors more, anyway) to make them more easily spotted.

-Sully like you mean it
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.1

Postby RedFlyingGolf on Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:32 pm

I like this. I recommend saving it as a .png, because the quality is always better. I agree with Victor Sullivan, you should keep the color of the font the same and make it a bit easier to read.
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.0

Postby kengyin on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:23 am

Industrial Helix wrote:
kengyin wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:Ditch the army circles... they make it exceptionally ugly.

I have a problem with the USA and landing craft in North Vietnam because landings didn't happen. The USA's military actions in the north were generally limited to air strikes, making North Vietnam the most heavily bombed country in the history of war.

oh, operation 34a did happen, it was covert and it was landing south vietnamese commandoes it didnt really mention american troops landing though it was coordinated by them. it just wasnt a big deal since it wasnt landings like say d-day, they would have been at night and only small amounts of troops at a time to attack small targets like bridges and stuff. ;)


Well yeah, it may have happened but it was not a large scale thing, which is what this map is proposing it is. When players play this game, they're going to be invading the north in droves and that is totally contrary the American part of the vietnam war.

dont some maps deviate from reality for the sake of gameplay also? whether it be geographically or politically or whatever many maps adjust the real life situation so that the gameplay is enhanced right? i mean this is for CC not a history lesson. for example in the western front map italy is included though western front generally refers to the sweep through france and belgium into germany, the campaign through north africa and italy was started long before d-day and not really western front. is that not the same reasoning?

Victor Sullivan wrote:
kengyin wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:A few things for this update:
1. You still need to have the same color font for all territory names, so to make it easier to look at from afar and easier to read up close (the grey in North Central Coast is extremely hard to read).
2. I don't understand the one-ways in Ho Chi Minh Trail. They make that bonus area rather overpowered (though the small +2 bonus does a decent job to balance this)
3. I had trouble finding Hanoi and Saigon. You should highlight those more since they yield a +2 bonus.
4. The Operation 34a territories aren't purple, but it's purple in the legend...?
5. Good job with the Mekong River Delta close-up ;)

-Sully

im afraid same colours fonts would make some bits hard to read, i mean dark on dark or light on light isnt very good thats what i had before kind of. different colours also helps to distinguish between regions. i could use some more opinions on this.

Just make HMCT lighter and use black or you could make Red River Delta and Northeast a tad darker and use white :)
kengyin wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:A few things for this update:
1. You still need to have the same color font for all territory names, so to make it easier to look at from afar and easier to read up close (the grey in North Central Coast is extremely hard to read).
2. I don't understand the one-ways in Ho Chi Minh Trail. They make that bonus area rather overpowered (though the small +2 bonus does a decent job to balance this)
3. I had trouble finding Hanoi and Saigon. You should highlight those more since they yield a +2 bonus.
4. The Operation 34a territories aren't purple, but it's purple in the legend...?
5. Good job with the Mekong River Delta close-up ;)

-Sully

yup, i will probably make them brighter, you are talking about on the legend right? or on the map as well?

I meant in the map. Maybe try making them a nice, bright color (you still need to desaturate your colors more, anyway) to make them more easily spotted.

-Sully like you mean it

i will make a new version with black fonts all around and compare them side by side ;)

yellow would probably be suitable or maybe just blue on red and red on blue as with the legend hanoi and saigon text
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Re: Vietnam war map - please comment on v2.1

Postby kengyin on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:42 am

im going to start a poll about this, so far 2 people think all one colour and 1 person (me) think separate colours. the one with at least 10% more than the other will go through, if less then i will make the final decision (unless the majority of voters for the other option are more experienced and thus unofficially have more weighting).

All black text
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vs

coloured text
Image
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