[Abandoned] - Second Indochina War

[grifftron]

Think that's it. Comments

Draft 4

Click image to enlarge.

-griff

[grifftron]

FD had a few changes made from yesterday, here it is again

Click image to enlarge.

-griff

[grifftron]

OK i messed up on the bombardments, they are suppose to be one ways, this fixes it... keeping it as draft 4

Click image to enlarge.

-griff

[Industrial Helix]

Hmm... I really like how you did the US navy.

Hanoi and Pathet Lao are still really close.

I still think the Viet Mihn can be worked in here some how, perhaps on the Ho Chi Minh Trail a set of three flags or something. Maybe a dual bonus system with the N. Vietnamese army?

And as a personal request, I'd still like to see territories over connectors. I think i makes even the most omplicated maps more understandable and might really aid your map in its development.

In the meantime, let's sticky this and see if it draws

[whitestazn88]

Hmm... I really like how you did the US navy.

Hanoi and Pathet Lao are still really close.

I still think the Viet Mihn can be worked in here some how, perhaps on the Ho Chi Minh Trail a set of three flags or something. Maybe a dual bonus system with the N. Vietnamese army?

And as a personal request, I'd still like to see territories over connectors. I think i makes even the most omplicated maps more understandable and might really aid your map in its development.

In the meantime, let's sticky this and see if it draws

Agreed, everything on land at least could be turned into territories of some sort.

[FarangDemon]

Hmm... I really like how you did the US navy.

Thanks!

Hanoi and Pathet Lao are still really close.

You are right, we'll need to remove link between Pathet Lao Caves and Vinh. Then it should be ok.

I still think the Viet Mihn can be worked in here some how, perhaps on the Ho Chi Minh Trail a set of three flags or something. Maybe a dual bonus system with the N. Vietnamese army?

When you say Viet Minh, I think you really mean Viet Cong. While it is clear who Viet Minh are in the 1st Indochina war, I'm having a hard time figuring out who they represent during the 2nd Indochina War (circa 1970) if not the Viet Cong. I recommend we try to add Viet Cong instead, as it is clear who these people are at that time, and they constitute the bulk of the forces fighting on behalf of the north in South Vietnam (until after Tet Offensive, when VC control of South Vietnam was essentially broken and VC became a shadow of its former self, largely confined to Cambodia so it could no longer recruit and had to instead be bolstered by NVA troops).

Here is their flag:



"Nov 1960 - Thousands who fear arrest flee to North Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh will later send many back to infiltrate South Vietnam as part of his People's Liberation Armed Forces (Viet Cong). Called Viet Cong by Diem, meaning Communist Vietnamese, Ho's guerrillas blend into the countryside, indistinguishable from South Vietnamese, while working to undermine Diem's government." http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

"Southern Vietnamese communists established the National Liberation Front in 1960 to encourage the participation of non-communists in the insurgency. Many of the Vietcong's core members were "regroupees," southern Vietminh who had resettled in the North after the Geneva Accord (1954). Hanoi gave the regroupees military training and sent them back to the South along the Ho Chi Minh trail in the early 1960s. The NLF called for Southerners to "overthrow the camouflaged colonial regime of the American imperialists" and to make "efforts toward the peaceful unification." The Vietcong's best-known action was the Tet Offensive, a massive assault on more than 100 South Vietnamese urban centers in 1968, including an attack on the US embassy in Saigon. The offensive riveted the attention of the world's media for weeks, but also overextended the Vietcong. Later communist offensives were conducted predominately by the North Vietnamese. The group was dissolved in 1976 when North and South Vietnam were officially unified under a communist government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong

[FarangDemon]

3 Proposed Viet Cong positions:

Iron Triangle / Cu Chi Tunnels - just northwest of Saigon. If we can fit "Cu Chi Tunnels" as label I think that would be a better name, as players would realize that they are fighting through the famous tunnel system. This was an extensive tunnel system and VC base of operations for conducting attacks against Saigon. Central Office for South Vietnam (COSVN) headquarters was located around this area, which controlled all PAVN/VC activities south of the triborder region of Laos, Cambodia, and South Vietnam. Maybe we can move labels around and fit this in - can also move First Cav Div further north to make space. I'd add connections between Cu Chi Tunnels and Kratie (HCMT), Cu Chi Tunnels and First Cav Division. Add one-way attacks from Cu Chi Tunnels to Saigon and My Tho.

U Minh Forest - South of Binh Thuy AB. Connects Mobile Riverine Forces and Binh Thuy AB. I think extend the HCMT trail from Binh Thuy AB to U Minh Forest.
Could add 1-way attack from Nha Trang to U Minh Forest so North Vietnamese player can get to there by boat from Hai Phong.

Kratie - We could change Kratie to be Viet Cong (I see many references made to VC presence in Cambodia), and make Vinh be PAVN instead. This makes it easier for North Vietnam player to get their flags, but since Vinh can be bombarded easily, the advantage seems to be evened out.

We could make it control 2 out of 3 VC for a +1. All VC for +2. And if you control a PAVN bonus, then it could double.

Additional note - consider making 1 way attacks a different color (red?) as the one from Dong Hoi to Khe Sanh is hard to see as it is.

[grifftron]

FD, just PM me when its all cleared up for the new additions, khoopkhunkhrap

-griff

[Industrial Helix]

Ah yeah, Viet Cong... I dunno why I get those two mixed up.

[grifftron]

Introducing VCong.

Draft 5

Click image to enlarge.

[jabajabba]

Wow, impressive stuff guys ....... Should be fun to play. Get it on here and lets try it out

[Industrial Helix]

What about Viet Cong at Xepon and Nam Ngang? Those would have been locations they would have held but the added threat of air raids would act as a balancing force against the reality of 5 Viet Cong symbols?

[FarangDemon]

What about Viet Cong at Xepon and Nam Ngang? Those would have been locations they would have held but the added threat of air raids would act as a balancing force against the reality of 5 Viet Cong symbols?

Sounds good to me. I was trying to come up with additional VC positions, but was afraid of crowding. Makes sense to use these positions we already have, and they are on the HCMT so it provides extra reason to bomb it.

[Industrial Helix]

What about connecting the Pathet Lao Caves starting point to having a better move on the Vietcong positions rather than Laos or N. Vietnam? This owuld be better than having two players fight over the Laos bonus. This way, each starting position has a tendency to become a force in the Indochina war that would have been in existence during the actual war.

[FarangDemon]

I feel like we should have both Laos factions vying for control of Laos. This is consistent with your suggestion to make Plain of Jars more strategic by making it a flag. Each of these factions can go for something else - Vientiane can go for Thailand bonuses and Pathet Laos can go for HCMT.

I like your suggestion to have the Laos player have connectivity to HCMT. Originally it connected to Vinh but this made Pathet Laos too close to Hanoi. Maybe we can insert connection between Houaphan and Nam Ngang. This connection would not be HCMT, which actually started from Vinh. This way the Pathet Laos player can go for the HCMT without having to be at loggerheads with Vietnamese over Vinh.

I really like your suggestions, especially the navy and VC suggestions, which I think contribute very greatly to the historical accuracy and historio-gaming experience of this map (i.e. Cu Chi Tunnels and battleship USS New Jersey). But we don't want to keep making changes only to have you then come back at the end and tell us we need to scrap the entire scheme of having connections with icons instead of contiguous bonus regions. You did mention you did not like this aspect of the map, though you didn't outright veto it. I have additional ideas for improvements as well, but it makes sense to first get approval for our proposed underlying foundation before building more onto it.

So after we make these additional changes can we then get this map promoted out of the Melting Pot and into the Gameplay Workshop?
Otherwise, please let us know what in addition would be required.