[Abandoned] - Second Indochina War

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:55 am

The only major thing holding you up is the question of where the numbers are going to go. You can't put them on the flag... you can maybe put them under the flag. I'm not sure what you guys want to do about that.

Other than that... I have my doubts about the historical accuracy but its certainly improved and no worse than the other "historical maps" we already have.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby grifftron on Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:47 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:The only major thing holding you up is the question of where the numbers are going to go. You can't put them on the flag... you can maybe put them under the flag. I'm not sure what you guys want to do about that.

Other than that... I have my doubts about the historical accuracy but its certainly improved and no worse than the other "historical maps" we already have.


Digi 888's (enlarged 33% w & h)

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:49 pm

In some places it looks like you're got major problems... going for territories would certainly solve this as everythign would be enclosed in a nice area. Plus, in my opinion, it would be more readable.

But it's not as bad as I was prepared for... you can solve that problem outside of the Melting Pot.

So, let's move this.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby grifftron on Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:55 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:In some places it looks like you're got major problems... going for territories would certainly solve this as everythign would be enclosed in a nice area. Plus, in my opinion, it would be more readable.

But it's not as bad as I was prepared for... you can solve that problem outside of the Melting Pot.

So, let's move this.



Thanks IH,

I think even moving terts to the left or right a bit would make the room for the digis.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:48 am

I dunno, I really think you should try a version with actual territories just to see if it makes things any clearer. This map is out of my jurisdiction right now, but I'm afraid you'll be scaring the mods off with its spider-web-like appearance.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby FarangDemon on Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:09 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I dunno, I really think you should try a version with actual territories just to see if it makes things any clearer. This map is out of my jurisdiction right now, but I'm afraid you'll be scaring the mods off with its spider-web-like appearance.


Thanks much! I appreciate your concerns regarding clarity, but hope you appreciate my concern to not want to misrepresent actual point locations as corresponding to a larger region which did not actually exist by that name if at all, and where if the historically accurate name were used, it would not ring any bells for the Vietnam war buffs.

This compromise is taken on most maps, but I think we can simplify the appearance here and still keep to the fundamentals - connection-based scheme using actual locations.

A few things that could help with the spider-web-like appearance:

  • Change connection from Mobile Riverine Force to First Cav Div to curve around Saigon, this way it intersects just one other connection instead of two.

  • Perhaps we could replace the one way connection lines on the map between Hai Phong -> Nha Trang and Nha Trang -> U Minh Forest with text on the map. The lines required to connect them are very long - I believe this should further improve the clarity of the map.

    Could put this text just to the right of Hai Phong:

    "Sea Infiltration Routes (purple or other color for this text)
    Hai Phong - - > Nha Trang
    "Nha Trang - - > U Minh Forest"

    Could change color of the label for these three locations to be purple so that someone can more easily realize that there is something going on with these three locations. They then see that "Sea Infiltration Routes" is also written in purple and are then more likely to inform themselves of these connections. Seems like it would have the desired effect, but I'm not a graphics/artistic person, so feel free to veto if you think the added purple (or other color) would make it seem more complicated.

I think spelling out Sea Infiltration Routes like this raises players' awareness of this facet of the conflict. And one other name change to make the name more meaningful to players - change "Ta Veng" to "Khmer Rouge HQ". :D
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby grifftron on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Added on the above posted by FD


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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:40 am

Cool, that looks a lot clearer. Any feedback?

One additional idea I had (inspired by Stalingrad map) was to put a plane - 4 in total, each labelled Barrel Roll, Steel Tiger, Rolling Thunder, Freedom Deal - in each of the bombing zones. Every airbase one way attacks each of its two planes (as each airbase bombs 2 separate missions). The planes bombard and are bombarded by any region in the bombing zone.

With this change, I think we can do away with the +2 bonus for holding airbases.
In place of this, we could have a +2 Air Superiority bonus for controlling air (the two planes) in both bombing zones from a particular base (Barrel Roll AND Steel Tiger or Rolling Thunder AND Freedom Deal). Its only 2 plane territs to hold for the bonus, but would be hard to hold as they can be attacked from any of the same type of airbase and also from the ground inside the bombing zones.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:55 pm

I like the above idea of the planes, ect. I think that would be quite cool.

I still think you ought to try a version where most everything is territories. This way you get a sense of the land war and political states... though the HCM trail could remain as is.

Also, you guys might want to try a signature with a link to the map to try and drum up some support for this map... there's not a whole lot of people posting in support and that could really stagnate your progress.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:22 am

FD just PM me if you want me to add that stuff you posted above, i am a little busy this new year but i should be able to get some down to some time this month.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:39 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I still think you ought to try a version where most everything is territories. This way you get a sense of the land war and political states... though the HCM trail could remain as is.


Ok I think we'll formulate something like Berlin - we can ditch Thai, Laos, Cambodian, North and South Vietnamese flags and represent them as contiguous territories of a bonus region. Could do something like hold any 4 Cambodian for a bonus, hold 5 Laos (must include Plain of Jars), hold 5 South Vietnamese....

We'd retain the symbols for airbases, US Army, Montagnards and VC.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:14 am

I've made a rough sketch of a version with contiguous regions. It is very hideous.

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Houaphan is shaded in because I made some messups and it makes it easier to see its boundaries.

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image


Grifftron, if this is too rough to work with, let me know and I can make another version that would be more readable.

The borders I have that are thick (between Thailand and Laos) are supposed to represent the Mekong. The borders I have that are thick with jagged lines just means impassable, we can figure out how to graphically represent it later.

I kept all the territ names the same, except changed Kampong Thom to Siem Reap. Hopefully you can match my chicken scratches with the names on the old version of the map, so you'll know how to spell it.

I am thinking that the US Army regions and Lima Site 85 will not count toward the country bonuses. They all represent point locations as opposed to larger regions, so that is kind of intuitive.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:26 am

I think I could work with it FD... we might have to do this by email again until we get something solid if we are going to change it to a pan handle type map, it looks like the game play is changed completely with a glance at it... I will have to work on it when i get a long period of time that i can just sit down and work on just this, lately i have had just short periods of free time so ill try to get it in sometime soon i hope.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:04 pm

I've decided to do a 2nd draft of the rework using google maps geocoding. Better to wait for that rather than attempt to decipher my notes. This is way more accurate than they were anyway.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby theBastard on Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:22 pm

the gameplay looks interesting. just I support Helix - do map with territories. there could be great impassables by jungle, rivers. the routes look bad for me...

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