[Abandoned] - Second Indochina War

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:55 am

The only major thing holding you up is the question of where the numbers are going to go. You can't put them on the flag... you can maybe put them under the flag. I'm not sure what you guys want to do about that.

Other than that... I have my doubts about the historical accuracy but its certainly improved and no worse than the other "historical maps" we already have.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby grifftron on Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:47 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:The only major thing holding you up is the question of where the numbers are going to go. You can't put them on the flag... you can maybe put them under the flag. I'm not sure what you guys want to do about that.

Other than that... I have my doubts about the historical accuracy but its certainly improved and no worse than the other "historical maps" we already have.


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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:49 pm

In some places it looks like you're got major problems... going for territories would certainly solve this as everythign would be enclosed in a nice area. Plus, in my opinion, it would be more readable.

But it's not as bad as I was prepared for... you can solve that problem outside of the Melting Pot.

So, let's move this.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby grifftron on Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:55 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:In some places it looks like you're got major problems... going for territories would certainly solve this as everythign would be enclosed in a nice area. Plus, in my opinion, it would be more readable.

But it's not as bad as I was prepared for... you can solve that problem outside of the Melting Pot.

So, let's move this.



Thanks IH,

I think even moving terts to the left or right a bit would make the room for the digis.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:48 am

I dunno, I really think you should try a version with actual territories just to see if it makes things any clearer. This map is out of my jurisdiction right now, but I'm afraid you'll be scaring the mods off with its spider-web-like appearance.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby FarangDemon on Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:09 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I dunno, I really think you should try a version with actual territories just to see if it makes things any clearer. This map is out of my jurisdiction right now, but I'm afraid you'll be scaring the mods off with its spider-web-like appearance.


Thanks much! I appreciate your concerns regarding clarity, but hope you appreciate my concern to not want to misrepresent actual point locations as corresponding to a larger region which did not actually exist by that name if at all, and where if the historically accurate name were used, it would not ring any bells for the Vietnam war buffs.

This compromise is taken on most maps, but I think we can simplify the appearance here and still keep to the fundamentals - connection-based scheme using actual locations.

A few things that could help with the spider-web-like appearance:

  • Change connection from Mobile Riverine Force to First Cav Div to curve around Saigon, this way it intersects just one other connection instead of two.

  • Perhaps we could replace the one way connection lines on the map between Hai Phong -> Nha Trang and Nha Trang -> U Minh Forest with text on the map. The lines required to connect them are very long - I believe this should further improve the clarity of the map.

    Could put this text just to the right of Hai Phong:

    "Sea Infiltration Routes (purple or other color for this text)
    Hai Phong - - > Nha Trang
    "Nha Trang - - > U Minh Forest"

    Could change color of the label for these three locations to be purple so that someone can more easily realize that there is something going on with these three locations. They then see that "Sea Infiltration Routes" is also written in purple and are then more likely to inform themselves of these connections. Seems like it would have the desired effect, but I'm not a graphics/artistic person, so feel free to veto if you think the added purple (or other color) would make it seem more complicated.

I think spelling out Sea Infiltration Routes like this raises players' awareness of this facet of the conflict. And one other name change to make the name more meaningful to players - change "Ta Veng" to "Khmer Rouge HQ". :D
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war (draft 5)

Postby grifftron on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Added on the above posted by FD


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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:40 am

Cool, that looks a lot clearer. Any feedback?

One additional idea I had (inspired by Stalingrad map) was to put a plane - 4 in total, each labelled Barrel Roll, Steel Tiger, Rolling Thunder, Freedom Deal - in each of the bombing zones. Every airbase one way attacks each of its two planes (as each airbase bombs 2 separate missions). The planes bombard and are bombarded by any region in the bombing zone.

With this change, I think we can do away with the +2 bonus for holding airbases.
In place of this, we could have a +2 Air Superiority bonus for controlling air (the two planes) in both bombing zones from a particular base (Barrel Roll AND Steel Tiger or Rolling Thunder AND Freedom Deal). Its only 2 plane territs to hold for the bonus, but would be hard to hold as they can be attacked from any of the same type of airbase and also from the ground inside the bombing zones.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:55 pm

I like the above idea of the planes, ect. I think that would be quite cool.

I still think you ought to try a version where most everything is territories. This way you get a sense of the land war and political states... though the HCM trail could remain as is.

Also, you guys might want to try a signature with a link to the map to try and drum up some support for this map... there's not a whole lot of people posting in support and that could really stagnate your progress.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:22 am

FD just PM me if you want me to add that stuff you posted above, i am a little busy this new year but i should be able to get some down to some time this month.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:39 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I still think you ought to try a version where most everything is territories. This way you get a sense of the land war and political states... though the HCM trail could remain as is.


Ok I think we'll formulate something like Berlin - we can ditch Thai, Laos, Cambodian, North and South Vietnamese flags and represent them as contiguous territories of a bonus region. Could do something like hold any 4 Cambodian for a bonus, hold 5 Laos (must include Plain of Jars), hold 5 South Vietnamese....

We'd retain the symbols for airbases, US Army, Montagnards and VC.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:14 am

I've made a rough sketch of a version with contiguous regions. It is very hideous.

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Houaphan is shaded in because I made some messups and it makes it easier to see its boundaries.

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Grifftron, if this is too rough to work with, let me know and I can make another version that would be more readable.

The borders I have that are thick (between Thailand and Laos) are supposed to represent the Mekong. The borders I have that are thick with jagged lines just means impassable, we can figure out how to graphically represent it later.

I kept all the territ names the same, except changed Kampong Thom to Siem Reap. Hopefully you can match my chicken scratches with the names on the old version of the map, so you'll know how to spell it.

I am thinking that the US Army regions and Lima Site 85 will not count toward the country bonuses. They all represent point locations as opposed to larger regions, so that is kind of intuitive.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:26 am

I think I could work with it FD... we might have to do this by email again until we get something solid if we are going to change it to a pan handle type map, it looks like the game play is changed completely with a glance at it... I will have to work on it when i get a long period of time that i can just sit down and work on just this, lately i have had just short periods of free time so ill try to get it in sometime soon i hope.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:04 pm

I've decided to do a 2nd draft of the rework using google maps geocoding. Better to wait for that rather than attempt to decipher my notes. This is way more accurate than they were anyway.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby theBastard on Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:22 pm

the gameplay looks interesting. just I support Helix - do map with territories. there could be great impassables by jungle, rivers. the routes look bad for me...

good luck.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:48 am

FarangDemon wrote:I've decided to do a 2nd draft of the rework using google maps geocoding. Better to wait for that rather than attempt to decipher my notes. This is way more accurate than they were anyway.


Ok sounds good FD. I am in Chiang Mai this coming week for about 10 days. Ill try to get on some.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:05 am

Hey Grifftron - Here is a sneak peak. It is mostly complete, I just left out the area around Saigon, which has always been pretty cluttered in our previous incarnations.

It's not ready for you to begin working from it yet - please just let me know if you think the size of the territs I have so far here is workable - then I'll work out the Saigon area and add other details.

Light blue border separates territs within same bonus region. Darker blue means impassable border within bonus region. Black border is used to demarcate bonus regions, dark black means impassable.

http://www.killersapp.com/Second%20Indochinese%20War%20-%20Revamp.htm

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:15 am

I like the look of the terts, it would be interesting FD, you would have to come up with some way of putting in mountains, rivers or whatever in those impassible areas. I opened up your sketch there, stretched it a bit in a 800x800 draft, put in black areas for the key on the side & top there (this could change, we could always move the key around some where else if it looks better). I also put enlarged 888's on the terts that i was concerned about, that is what the "small" version would look like in a way, you can see that some terts would be impossible to put both tert names along with the digi 888's in so we would for sure run into problems.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:23 pm

That's great what you did, putting in the numbers and key like that. Yeah I see the issue with not being able to fit labels and numbers in the territs...

Maybe we can try the following to increase the size of our map (in order to avoid having to clump regions together and using too many abbreviations):

  • Trim the ocean from the east side of the map (I know I didn't mention it yet, but I think we can do away with the ocean connecting lines in this version)
  • Remove the key from the top
  • Enlarge the map portion so it goes all the way up to the top of the screen
    • So we'll only have the key on the left side
    • We can put the map title in the body of water just SE of Haiphong

Let's see how well names can fit in the territs like this...
I hope most of them fit, otherwise we'd need to make extensive use of abbreviations.

Once we get the size issues worked out, I'll finalize territs and borders in my draft version, and then formulate suggestions on how to graphically visualize those borders.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:10 am

This is about what the SMALL version would look like FD according to your last post, some of those terts are just so tiny... they rest would be fine tho.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:38 am

FD maybe we drop the original map size and move this map up to a larger size now that they have the new regulations on maps sizes

SuperSize limits: 1000x800 pixels for a small map, and 1400x1200 pixels for a large map

We could fit a ton in there with those sizes! If i understand correctly we can do both small map & large maps to the sizes above without having to do the older size limits, that would be great!

we will wait until after you get that new sketch out tho.

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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:44 pm

Yes if we can supersize it, that gives us more options. Otherwise we can just consider a scaled down version. We can start with what I have now anyway.

Here is the google map (uploaded to same URL as previous):

http://www.killersapp.com/Second%20Indochinese%20War%20-%20Revamp.htm

Please note, I didn't sketch entire outline of NW Laos and North/NW Vietnam but I want it to be included in the map. Just check the map for how it should look. Note also that I do not want to include any of Thailand north of Phitsanulok as it was not relevant to this conflict. You could just put mountains along the Thai side north of Phitsanulok. I think that is preferable to making Phitsanulok reach all the way up north...

Another note: I took some liberties to simplify my work, creating straight edges where the borders are actually curved. In some places, like the border between Mondolkiri and Kratie, my sketch is quite accurate. But between Champasak and Attapeu, I didn't go to so much trouble. Please use the actual political/municipal boundaries where it is apparent from my sketch (as overlaid on top of googlemaps) that the borders follow the actual boundaries.

Impassables

note: Impassables that separate regions of different bonus regions are thick dark black in my sketch. Impassables that separate regions within the same bonus region are dark blue. I did this so you can easily see the black outline which separates bonus regions, regardless of whether parts of the border are impassable or not.

between Thailand and Laos - river
between N. Vietnam and Laos - mountains
within Laos - mountains (indicated in my map by darker blue borders between Laos regions)
between Laos and Cambodia - forests
between Cambodia and Thailand - mountains
between E. Cambodia and S. Vietnam - mountains
between S. Cambodia and S. Vietnam - forest
between N. Vietnam and S. Vietnam - DMZ (some kind of special graphic...)

Starting Locations

I'd like to keep the original starting locations with two modifications:

  • Pathet Lao Caves

    We'll add a note in the legend that the starting location of Pathet Lao Caves can assault and be assaulted by Houaphan. It's too small to graphically represent within Houaphan province, and would also get a bit hairier given that we still want to make Houaphan a bombing target but exclude Pathet Lao Caves from being bombed (because they were safe inside the caves). Doing this also makes it so that Pathet Lao Caves is not too close to Hanoi or Vientiane.

  • Khe Sanh

    This is the US Army starting location. It is the northernmost region of S. Vietnam and will have a US Army icon on it. As will Pattaya, Mobile Riverine Force and 1st Cav Div. I think we'll have these four US Army icon regions be a +2/+3 bonus and all attack one another like the naval bases in Philippines map.

I'll provide a list of territory names shortly.
Last edited by FarangDemon on Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby FarangDemon on Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:16 pm

Territories ordered by northernmost point of each region within the bonus region

Thailand (9)

Udon Thani, Nakhon Phanom, Phitsanulok, Khon Kaen, Ubon Ratchathani, Nakhon Sawan, Khorat, Bangkok, Chonburi

Cambodia (9)


Ratanakiri, Stung Treng, Siem Reap, Battambang, Kratie, Mondolkiri, Phnom Penh, Sihanoukville, Prey Vieng

Laos (14)

Phongsali, NW Laos, Luang Prabang, Houaphan, (Pathet Lao Caves), Plain of Jars, Long Tieng, Vientiane, Bolikhamxay, Khammouane, Savannakhet, Xepon, Champasak, Attapeu

North Vietnam (8)


Dien Bien Phu, Northern Vietnam, Hanoi, Hai Phong, Son La, Thanh Hoa, Vinh, Dong Hoi

South Vietnam (15)


Khe Sanh, Danang, Pleiku, Quy Non, Buon Ma Thuot, Nha Trang, Da Lat, 1st Cav Div, Cu Chi Tunnels, Long Khanh, Saigon, My Tho, Tan Chau, Can Tho, U Minh Forest

Other smaller territs I hope we will add to the map later...

  • Pattaya (located within Chonburi region)
  • Mobile Riverine Force (graphically represented on the water because I think there is more room there, borders Can Tho and My Tho)
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:17 pm

Ill really need some downtime to read that stuff above and get it down, i am just testing the digis on the new map style to make sure we have no complications in the future FD. Since we SUPERSIZED it, i think we got the GO :mrgreen: :shock: :-$

1400hx1200w
Click image to enlarge.
image


933hx800w
Click image to enlarge.
image


if we could get a mod to concur that those would be OK size wise with the dimensions i used that would be great. And we could always move this back into the chop shop since we are totally changing the game play.... or leave it here, whatever.

***once i do work on graphics i am going to move away from the google earth look of our original versions and try something new out for once.


-griff
‹army of nobunaga› me and so many other people including people in your own clan look at you as a joke
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Major grifftron
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Re: The 2nd Indochina war

Postby grifftron on Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:33 am

I was looking for a map with exact locations for where the boarders should be for each tert. Couldn't find anything for this entire map, you have a link FD? or will have just have to rough it? I would like it to be exact locations.. otherwise we would get yelled at later on.

-griff
‹army of nobunaga› me and so many other people including people in your own clan look at you as a joke
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Major grifftron
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