[Abandoned] - Hawaii Map

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Re: Hawaii Map Ready for Feedback - edited

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:23 pm

saberty wrote:We are using PhotoShop5


Thank God... Yeah, just desaturate them and they should look much better in terms of color. They're pixelated, so you might have to find figures something else out as well.
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Re: Hawaii Map Ready for Feedback - edited

Postby esiemer on Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:27 pm

greenoaks: sorry i didn't reply to your questions earlier, i was too busy voting yes to your awesome ideas of zombies and parachutes (great names, fun ideas).
anyway, when we play the boardgame version of this map, we usually decide beforehand if the two single territory islands will be auto-deploy and/or neutral. autodeploy +1 and a neutral value of 2-3 (depending on # of players) are our most common and favored decisions, but since we can't change settings before each CC game, i am curious to hear what other gamers think... what would you suggest?

i love lonely planet and wikipedia, and i don't want to fight over rainbows :lol: or beat this subject to death, but here is an interesting article about how Hawaii is the Rainbow state and the colors symbolize the island's diversity http://www.guidebookamerica.com/news/hawaii_rainbow/index.htm

all that being said, if we can't make them look better we will drop them. saberty just desaturated them and i changed the image in the first post so check it out and we welcome honest feedback.

Industrial Helix:
They're pixelated, so you might have to find figures something else out as well.

could you clarify this? i think a word might have gotten lost somewhere :)
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Re: Hawaii Map Ready for Feedback - edited

Postby rdsrds2120 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:02 am

esiemer wrote:
Industrial Helix:
They're pixelated, so you might have to find figures something else out as well.

could you clarify this? i think a word might have gotten lost somewhere :)


They have a higher resolution?

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Re: Hawaii Map Ready for Feedback - edited

Postby greenoaks on Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:29 am

esiemer wrote:greenoaks: sorry i didn't reply to your questions earlier, i was too busy voting yes to your awesome ideas of zombies and parachutes (great names, fun ideas).
anyway, when we play the boardgame version of this map, we usually decide beforehand if the two single territory islands will be auto-deploy and/or neutral. autodeploy +1 and a neutral value of 2-3 (depending on # of players) are our most common and favored decisions, but since we can't change settings before each CC game, i am curious to hear what other gamers think... what would you suggest?

i love lonely planet and wikipedia, and i don't want to fight over rainbows :lol: or beat this subject to death, but here is an interesting article about how Hawaii is the Rainbow state and the colors symbolize the island's diversity http://www.guidebookamerica.com/news/hawaii_rainbow/index.htm

all that being said, if we can't make them look better we will drop them. saberty just desaturated them and i changed the image in the first post so check it out and we welcome honest feedback.

Industrial Helix:
They're pixelated, so you might have to find figures something else out as well.

could you clarify this? i think a word might have gotten lost somewhere :)

i'm glad you voted. much like you, i want to add something to this site

(i suppose i could look this up but i'm a bit lazy today, the 1st) is there something significant about those two islands ie.are those 2 islands active volcanoes ? is there something historical that would lend itself to a +1 auto-deploy ?

+ is that a typo 'outriggers can attact each other' - attack
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated 12/31 (happy new ye

Postby rdsrds2120 on Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:05 am

Any word on this? Also, Haniei, the troop circle, and the canoe are all really crammed up there near the top. Is there a way to space it out a bit? Or am I just being too nitpicky?

Also, your smaller version doesn't have the rainbows desaturated yet. Speaking of, they have white streaks where they bend and are still a bit resolution unfriendly. You might have to drop them and go with the conventional dotted line, or maybe something else just as unique that could work. Good luck!

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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated 12/31 (happy new ye

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:15 pm

The rainbow connections... they look pixelated. To be honest, I'd prefer it if you found another way to integrate the rainbows into the map instead of using them like Asgardian bridges.
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated 12/31 (happy new ye

Postby saberty on Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:20 pm

I will make a version without and post it. It will take me a few days now that the holiday break is over :(
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated 12/31 (happy new ye

Postby Fuzzylogic99 on Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:40 am

I like it .though i think you should get rid of the pink and use different colors.I think with the rainbow the pink might be a bit too much.

Cant wait to play this map
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated 12/31 (happy new ye

Postby Ron Burgandy on Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:17 pm

Awesome map guys...keep fighting for those rainbows! Invite me to first game!!!!
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby esiemer on Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:25 pm

without quoting everybody individually:

i finally posted the small version to match the big version with new rainbows and the "attact" typo fixed

saberty and i will work on a new version soon with dotted lines, or maybe lei bridges?

i really dont want to change any of the island colors (from pink or anything) because they are all based on each islands official color -- yes, each hawaiian island has an official color http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/Hawaii/Island_colors.html

i agree about Hanalei being a bit crowded... I will redraw the territory lines and probably move the Kapa'a label south... this will help also because Hanalei Bay (what the territory is named after, where Andy Irons had his ashes spread, and where Puff the Magic Dragon comes from) should be more visible anyway.

And did I mention that 2 autodeploys does sound excessive? There isn't any historical significance I want to add to those islands (will save that for my next Hawaii map)... so i'm now thinking the two single territory islands start with neutral 3... mostly because we dislike maps where some lucky player starts the game with an extra bonus

Aloha all! sorry we slowed down in the new year, but we are committed to finishing this!
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:51 pm

esiemer wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image

I apologize for my lateness in posting my thoughts, as I know youve been holding your breath for this. ;) Allow me to let you exhale (I apologize if some of this has already been covered):
  1. I absolutely love your graphical style, especially those rainbow connectors, that is sexy right there, and I rarely use that word (except when it comes to ljex, but thats another story...)
  2. The outriggers are a nice gameplay touch to balance things out, good thinking!
  3. The (Big Island) could be dropped from the legend, I dont believe you need the extra clarification.
  4. The text colour of Niihau doesnt match the colour of the island.
  5. I say the single territory islands, Niihau and Kahoolawe, shouldnt be autodeploys at all but standard +1 bonuses.
  6. Careful with your borders, they have varying pixelation (as it seems your island images do too, yikes...), as the thick borders in Hawaii are rather pixelated, while the thin borders in Lanai are fine. Consistency in that area is certainly recommended.
  7. Bonus changes: It seems Oahu would be harder to hold than Maui, as it has more borders to defend and more territories connect to its borders, so I think this justifies an increase for Oahu from +5 to +6. In addition, I believe Hawaii should be upped to +8, as it is at least worth +2 more than Oahu and it would be much harder to hold than Asia in Classic (which has a +7 bonus).

Cheers,
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby baco on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:25 am

good work guys. looks like a lot of hard work and constructive criticism. dont have much to add except the boat on top is a little hard to see. cant wait to play it!
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:47 am

If you guys want to get this moving, here's a list of things that must happen:
1) The rainbow connectors do not look good. They're fuzzy, jagged edged and they serve only to divide the theme of the map, rather than unify it. Swap them out for dotted lines. This is not your last draft, you can try out different ways of using the rainbows still in the time you have in gameplay and graphics.
2) Adding square photos of scenes in Hawaii is not a good idea (upper right and lower left). Pull them out for now.
3) Your ocean photo has too much going on for it to work. Everything about is clashing with the playable map. You want something dark blue with little to no white spots on it.
4) You have major problems with your theme. It looks like you're going for the satellite, semi-realistic look (Canada or Iceland). But, none of your islands are in their actual geographic location or relative size. A better route would be to do for something like a cartographic representation (Scotland, Eastern Hemisphere) in the style of an antique map. I mean, there you can exaggerate size and shape and maintain some creative license without being obligated to the rigors of satellite surveillance. Here's a antique style that I'm thinking: http://mysticmana.com/product_image.php?imageid=760
Here's a few Hawaii maps that I found inspirational:
My favorite: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_79TdQF9qAm4/R ... Hawaii.jpg
This one is nice for its compression of the islands, while still maintaining overall shape: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4hSzDourE-Y/S ... stcard.JPG

But yeah, I want to see a solid, unified theme for this map and I think that is the key thing that is missing. Right now, you've got too many themes going on at one time: Photo realism, satellite, rainbow/bright colors/tropical theme, ect. Not that these facets are mutually exclusive, some can work quite well in tandem, but the multiple themes are clashing with each other.

Don't let this get you down though, the gameplay and bonuses seem solid, maybe slightly too open (but that's ok). And lastly, its an area that is interesting enough to deserve a CC map, especially as the foundry is starting to lack in standard gameplay maps as of late. Don't give up, try a theme overhaul and if you need more help let me know.
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby esiemer on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:29 pm

thanks for all the constructive criticism... especially the last 2 posts by Industrial Helix and Victor Sullivan

we will address them all point by point, but for now can anyone help us with activation keys for photoshop? the copy we got came with a file that was supposed to generate a key, but it isnt working. we have 13 days left of our trial, and are scared we wont get everything done before then.

Mahalo!!
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 pm

download a new trial version? Otherwise I'm not going to be a whole lot of help... and you'll need more than 13 days of photoshop to make it through the foundry.
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby esiemer on Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:51 am

here's a new version without rainbows and with a new background:
Click image to enlarge.
image


smaller version:
Image

Thoughts?
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby natty dread on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:20 am

esiemer wrote:we will address them all point by point, but for now can anyone help us with activation keys for photoshop? the copy we got came with a file that was supposed to generate a key, but it isnt working. we have 13 days left of our trial, and are scared we wont get everything done before then.


GIMP is free. It can open PSD files so you don't have to start over... anything you need in mapmaking can be done with GIMP.

http://www.gimp.org/
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Re: Hawaii Map -updated Jan 12 (new map on page 3)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:25 pm

esiemer wrote:thanks for all the constructive criticism... especially the last 2 posts by Industrial Helix and Victor Sullivan

Aw, shucks... :oops: :) Flattery will get you feedback :mrgreen: ;)

The lack of rainbows depresses me... I think if you made them not so pixelated it would be perfectly fine. Did you check your proportions, by the way? The island sizes still seem off (I feel like a complete jack-you-know-what when Helix pointed that out, for the record :P).
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Re: Hawaii Map -updated Jan 12 (new map on page 3)

Postby Wippit Guud on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:15 pm

Ok, so I've been on the site a whopping 20 hours or so, I've yet to even complete a game (well on my way to losing 2 of the 4 I'm in), have never even posted in the forum until this post, and I've never been to Hawaii. I must be imminently qualified to offer suggestions to maps, right? :)

Suggestion: Add 6 volcanoes. One on each island, two on Hawaii. Controlling 3 volcanoes on different islands = +2 units. Three volcanos = +3, and so on counting up. Perhaps even have a bonus for all 6, but didn't want to suggest counting both volcanoes on Hawaii in the chain.

Hawaii - Mauna Loa
Hawaii - Kilauea
Maui - Haleakalā
Oahu - Wai'anae
Moloka'i - Kalaupapa
Lana'i - Kaumalapau
Kaua'i - Wai'ale'ale

Locations I think are accurate for actual existing volcano craters (or volcanoes for the active ones)
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Re: Hawaii Map -updated Jan 12 (new map on page 3)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:58 pm

Sounds quite interesting, Whip It (whip it good). If you add volcanoes, maybe it'd be best to give them bombardment powers. Maybe allow them to bombard all territories in their bonus area, or allow them to bombard designated areas, etc. What are your thoughts, esiemer?
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Re: Hawaii Map -updated Jan 12 (new map on page 3)

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:58 pm

Still not a fan of the photo background, but its an improvement still. For the background I'd try maybe a dark blue, lighly textured (use opacity to do this with a texture image beneath). Then add a white or sandy glow to the islands. It's progressing nicely though and I'll see what the others say.
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Re: Hawaii Map -updated Jan 12 (new map on page 3)

Postby baco on Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:51 pm

i would also like to keep the rainbows instead of the doted lines.
good flavor!

i like the backdrop lighter to.
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Re: Hawaii Map -updated Jan 12 (new map on page 3)

Postby Joodoo on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:16 am

Love the graphics.
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And if they dont suck then they blow.

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Re: Hawaii Map Ready for Feedback - edited

Postby esiemer on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:20 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I apologize for my lateness in posting my thoughts, as I know youve been holding your breath for this.
  1. I absolutely love your graphical style, especially those rainbow connectors, that is sexy right there, and I rarely use that word (except when it comes to ljex, but thats another story...)
  2. The outriggers are a nice gameplay touch to balance things out, good thinking!
  3. The (Big Island) could be dropped from the legend, I dont believe you need the extra clarification.
  4. The text colour of Niihau doesnt match the colour of the island.
  5. I say the single territory islands, Niihau and Kahoolawe, shouldnt be autodeploys at all but standard +1 bonuses.
  6. Careful with your borders, they have varying pixelation (as it seems your island images do too, yikes...), as the thick borders in Hawaii are rather pixelated, while the thin borders in Lanai are fine. Consistency in that area is certainly recommended.
  7. Bonus changes: It seems Oahu would be harder to hold than Maui, as it has more borders to defend and more territories connect to its borders, so I think this justifies an increase for Oahu from +5 to +6. In addition, I believe Hawaii should be upped to +8, as it is at least worth +2 more than Oahu and it would be much harder to hold than Asia in Classic (which has a +7 bonus).

Cheers,
Sully


1-thanks for the support on our graphic style. there is still work to be done, and we are still trying to get the rainbows to look good. living in Hawaii makes me appreciate them, and i realize there is lots of prejudice against them in other places, but we are trying to be true to the Islands. That being said, if they don't look good, they don't stay.
2-yeah, we needed the outriggers. when we play the original board without them, whoever gets Kauai will always win. Also, the yellow canoe symbol on them is a nod to the Kanaka Maoli & King Kamehameha's personal flag.
3-the Big Island thing is something we are undecided on. on one hand, every body in Hawaii calls that island "big island", nobody calls it Hawaii. on the other hand, Hawaii is its name, and the extra clarification in the map key is sorta distracting. i could go either way on it.
4-we will make sure the text color matches the color of the island. like i mentioned elsewhere, we are using each islands official color
5-we have come around to agree with you about changing from autodeploy to standard +1. i assume its possible to have them start neutral though, so during gameplay some lucky player doesnt start with a bonus. makes it less fair.
6-yeah, that variance in border thickness/pixelation has got to be fixed. Maui and Big Island look the worst b/c of all their resizing. we will fix it.
7-bonus changes- we agree with all your sentiments. well put and argued. i'm sure as this map progresses through the foundry other people will have a say in this too, and we are totally cool with changing these values. the map has to be fair to be fun, right?

good input Sully =D>
Mahalo!


greenoaks wrote:(i suppose i could look this up but i'm a bit lazy today, the 1st) is there something significant about those two islands ie.are those 2 islands active volcanoes ? is there something historical that would lend itself to a +1 auto-deploy ?

+ is that a typo 'outriggers can attact each other' - attack


There are no active Volcanoes on those islands, they are special for other reasons, but we were imagining this map as a pretty straightforward traditional map. Our next map (assuming there is interest) will be of Hawaii with Volcanoes, Tiki gods, boats, amakua, Capt Cook, King Kamehameha, Heiau, and all that stuff. Baby steps brah :D
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Re: Hawaii map seeking Feedback -updated Jan 7

Postby esiemer on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:04 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:If you guys want to get this moving, here's a list of things that must happen:
1) The rainbow connectors do not look good. They're fuzzy, jagged edged and they serve only to divide the theme of the map, rather than unify it. Swap them out for dotted lines. This is not your last draft, you can try out different ways of using the rainbows still in the time you have in gameplay and graphics.
2) Adding square photos of scenes in Hawaii is not a good idea (upper right and lower left). Pull them out for now.
3) Your ocean photo has too much going on for it to work. Everything about is clashing with the playable map. You want something dark blue with little to no white spots on it.
4) You have major problems with your theme. It looks like you're going for the satellite, semi-realistic look (Canada or Iceland). But, none of your islands are in their actual geographic location or relative size. A better route would be to do for something like a cartographic representation (Scotland, Eastern Hemisphere) in the style of an antique map. I mean, there you can exaggerate size and shape and maintain some creative license without being obligated to the rigors of satellite surveillance. Here's a antique style that I'm thinking: http://mysticmana.com/product_image.php?imageid=760
Here's a few Hawaii maps that I found inspirational:
My favorite: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_79TdQF9qAm4/R ... Hawaii.jpg
This one is nice for its compression of the islands, while still maintaining overall shape: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4hSzDourE-Y/S ... stcard.JPG

But yeah, I want to see a solid, unified theme for this map and I think that is the key thing that is missing. Right now, you've got too many themes going on at one time: Photo realism, satellite, rainbow/bright colors/tropical theme, ect. Not that these facets are mutually exclusive, some can work quite well in tandem, but the multiple themes are clashing with each other.

Don't let this get you down though, the gameplay and bonuses seem solid, maybe slightly too open (but that's ok). And lastly, its an area that is interesting enough to deserve a CC map, especially as the foundry is starting to lack in standard gameplay maps as of late. Don't give up, try a theme overhaul and if you need more help let me know.


1-roger that, Industrial Helix, we posted a new one with dotted lines (which could use some improvements themselves, but it was our first try). whichever connectors we end up with, we want them to look good.
2-yeah, those were placesavers and they were distracting. they will obviously look better when we are done, but your point is well taken.
3-we changed that ocean photo, but its still not perfect. will work on it more.
4-we would like our theme overall to be a more satellite realistic look. the problem is that with the map size constraints (840x800) we end up having to squish the islands together and change their sizes. if we went with a true sat image:
Image
there is not enough room to label the territories on the smaller islands, and there is so much dead space/open ocean on the map compared with landspace. is there any flexibility in Conquer Clubs rules for map dimensions? if we could use a landscape/widescreen size image it would work much better, and we could better keep the islands relative position/sizes. otherwise, we could just drastically decrease the number of territores (Kauai would have to be 2-3, Lanai 1-2, etc) and attack routes (or maybe just more outriggers? -but if we shrink their size anymore they look terrible).
We played with moving the islands around trying to maintain as much realism as possible, but keeping playability and visibility in mind. Our most recent version of the map is the best compromise we have come up with. Do you have any other suggestions for keeping the realism theme while conforming to the Conquer Club map size requirements?

we really like the maps you posted, and in fact they were ones we have been looking at for inspiration. after this map is done, we really want to do another, more cartographic and creative map of Hawaii with a unification/Hawaii mythology aspect to it. I hope there is still enough interest because working on this first project of a standard, traditional map has just generated about half a dozen ideas to make other Hawaiian themed maps. we will keep going as long as there is interest and we produce quality (not redundant) work.

Mahalo for the feedback and direction, this is going to take longer than we thought, but nothing good comes easy :)

Aloha,
team Hawaii
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