[Abandoned] - Lorn Empire

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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 6 - Page 5)

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:51 am

OK, I've had a better look now. First, let me say that I love the graphics, the little story is nice and overall the theme is good.

Now, here are some clarity issues:
(1) Need to define on the map clearly what constitutes an Empire region and a Farm region. I'm assuming that the Farmlands are all the regions that start with "F" and the Empire regions are everything else, but I hate to make assumptions when playing a map for the first time.

(2) The rule "Barracks bombard adjacent Farmlands", I've no idea what 'adjacent' means here, given my assumption in (1) above.

(3) At some point, you need to put in the legend the symbols for a Castle, maybe a Post if you want to save legend space, (and possibly Barracks if you change the names- you can't have them all be the same name). Also need to show sample symbols for impassible terrain.

As for the gameplay, here are my thoughts:
(1) Conquest maps are tricky, and most require extensive Beta testing. The trouble is always balancing the neutral values to prevent 'quick' eliminations, while providing room for players to accomplish something useful on their turn. Let me go into this in more detail with my next two points.

(2) The current neutral values are too high in some places. As Sully posted, 28 is enough to ensure that any decent player will avoid the center like the plague. Especially when the benefit is so low. Far smarter to just take the 5 regions around them for a +4 bonus, then stack and stack and hope that an opportunity comes around to bull rush and elimate a neighbor. This sort of gameplay experience doesn't seem terribly fun, as the options are currently very 1(maybe 2)-dimensional. Plus, the strategy is minimal and dice will play a major role in determining a victor.
However, a similar argument can be made about Feudal War, so perhaps it will have an appeal (if that's what you're aiming for in terms of a gameplay framework).

(3) The bonuses are okay, perhaps too low for the center (farm) regions. Conversely, perhaps the neutral values can be lowered to 1s for most of the center. Sixteen neutrals for a +6 auto-deploy is fair enough, but considering the awful risk that players take by exposing themeselves to a quick kill, I could even see the bonus as high as +8 autodeploy.

(4) The map needs to have more options. Opening up the center will help a lot; adding in some more impassibles for entering the center might help give the castles more protection. Alternatively, you could make entry into the center a one-way attack (say through the Castle, or Barracks, or some new type of place) and then have no way to attack back out except through a Post, which would guard against quick kills as each Post has a substantial number of neutrals.

Anyway, hope this helps, and keep up the good work!

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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 6 - Page 5)

Postby OliverFA on Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:20 am

Apologies for not having discovered this map until now. At first glance, it looks so nice!
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 6 - Page 5)

Postby ISN2 on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:54 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Yes, yes! Nice to see an update! ;) Some comments:
ISN2 wrote:End the wars once and reunite the former Great Empire.
This should be "End the wars once and for all and reunite the former Great Empire" or just "End the wars and reunite the former Great Empire".


Thanks it's going to be fixed in my coming update. And again thanks for the overall story :D


Victor Sullivan wrote:
ISN2 wrote:Map Rules:
1. Each player starts the game on 1 or 2 castles depending on number of players.
Yes, good. And with the new XML we can make it so that the maximum amount of castles one can have is two.
ISN2: Well by default if we divide 8 castles for any of 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 players they will get 1 or 2 castles and I don't think there is any need for that new XML feature :D

2. Each castle has 4 armies at start and has a +1 deployment bonus.
Alright, I think this is good.

3. Players get 1 army per every 3 territories. The minimum army getting is 3 armies (Like normal maps).
Yup, this is fine, too.

4. There is a barracks territory in each empire bordering the castle with 4 naturals on it. The barracks territory has an auto deploy bonus of 4 per turn.
Meh, I think you could stand to increase the neutrals to like 12, so you have to invest in it.
ISN2: Well I don't want the players to get a hard start, I think it should be fair to let them get the auto-deploy bonus in first turn, then they can focus on other bonuses or eliminations :D

5. All other empire territories will start with 2 naturals on them except 2 bordering territories with other empires that will start with 16 naturals.
Okay, I agree you have the right idea, but maybe consider increasing it just a bit more - to around 19-21. Like I've said before, quick elimination = bad.
ISN2: Well there are two 16s there, so it is actually 32 between them in total.

6. Having any 5 empire territories will have a +4 bonus.
Note: castle and barracks are counted as empire territories too.
I think this is a little high. Maybe do something like "hold all regions surrounding your castle for +3". You could potentially exclude the Barracks from this - it might be a good idea, actually.
ISN2: Well since there are 7 territories in each Empire and 2 of them are 16, so I think the bonus still should be for having 5, but I can lower the +4 to +3 ...

7. Having any 2 farmland territories will have a +1 bonus.
Note: posts are counted as farmland territories too.
Is this in addition to the standard territory bonus? I think it should be - promote movement into the center farmlands.
ISN2: Yeah this is in addition.

8. Every player must have at least 1 castle or will be eliminated.
Yes, good.
ISN2: O:)

9. The farmlands in middle of map have low number of naturals on them, 2 or 4 except bordering farmlands with empires that have 28 naturals.
Whoa! 28 neutrals?? You want them to go in the middle. Make those 2 neutrals, as well, not 28.
ISN2: Yeah, if you look at the map, from a castle to another are 2 ways, for example from Western Empire Castle too Snowy Lands Castle: WE 1 (16), SL 3 (16) 2 territories and 32 naturals, now other way: WE 2 (2), F15 (28), SL 3 (2) here it is 3 territories and still 32 naturals, and yes you are right, this is a problem and players will not go into the middle, but if I lower them then there will another way for quick elimination. But I guess MarshalNey about 1 way attack is really, really and really nice, I'm going to use it and fix this problem in game-play ...

10. There are territories in farmlands named "Grail Caravan", "Silk Villages", "Viller Camp" and "Tent" that will start with 16 naturals on each and will have an auto deploy of 6 each turn.
Alright, this is decent. 16 seems fairly reasonable, though since it's in the middle you should consider lowering it to 12.
ISN2: Well I'm going to make the bonus more :D

11. Out ways of each empire will start with 16 naturals at start.
You already said this :P But I'll say again, these territories should have around 19-21 neutrals, I think.
ISN2: ^^^^^


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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 6 - Page 5)

Postby ISN2 on Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:12 pm

MarshalNey wrote:OK, I've had a better look now. First, let me say that I love the graphics, the little story is nice and overall the theme is good.

Now, here are some clarity issues:
(1) Need to define on the map clearly what constitutes an Empire region and a Farm region. I'm assuming that the Farmlands are all the regions that start with "F" and the Empire regions are everything else, but I hate to make assumptions when playing a map for the first time.

(2) The rule "Barracks bombard adjacent Farmlands", I've no idea what 'adjacent' means here, given my assumption in (1) above.

(3) At some point, you need to put in the legend the symbols for a Castle, maybe a Post if you want to save legend space, (and possibly Barracks if you change the names- you can't have them all be the same name). Also need to show sample symbols for impassible terrain.

As for the gameplay, here are my thoughts:
(1) Conquest maps are tricky, and most require extensive Beta testing. The trouble is always balancing the neutral values to prevent 'quick' eliminations, while providing room for players to accomplish something useful on their turn. Let me go into this in more detail with my next two points.

(2) The current neutral values are too high in some places. As Sully posted, 28 is enough to ensure that any decent player will avoid the center like the plague. Especially when the benefit is so low. Far smarter to just take the 5 regions around them for a +4 bonus, then stack and stack and hope that an opportunity comes around to bull rush and elimate a neighbor. This sort of gameplay experience doesn't seem terribly fun, as the options are currently very 1(maybe 2)-dimensional. Plus, the strategy is minimal and dice will play a major role in determining a victor.
However, a similar argument can be made about Feudal War, so perhaps it will have an appeal (if that's what you're aiming for in terms of a gameplay framework).

(3) The bonuses are okay, perhaps too low for the center (farm) regions. Conversely, perhaps the neutral values can be lowered to 1s for most of the center. Sixteen neutrals for a +6 auto-deploy is fair enough, but considering the awful risk that players take by exposing themeselves to a quick kill, I could even see the bonus as high as +8 autodeploy.

(4) The map needs to have more options. Opening up the center will help a lot; adding in some more impassibles for entering the center might help give the castles more protection. Alternatively, you could make entry into the center a one-way attack (say through the Castle, or Barracks, or some new type of place) and then have no way to attack back out except through a Post, which would guard against quick kills as each Post has a substantial number of neutrals.

Anyway, hope this helps, and keep up the good work!

Marshal Ney

Thanks for all of those good suggestions, I really loved many of them, especially the one-way attack that is going to fix the problem of big naturals for middle =D> :D

I will use many of your suggestions in my coming update, Also I will make the legend more clear for the things you said, thanks again O:)

OliverFA wrote:Apologies for not having discovered this map until now. At first glance, it looks so nice!

Thanks mate O:)
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 6 - Page 5)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:07 pm

ISN2: Well by default if we divide 8 castles for any of 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 players they will get 1 or 2 castles and I don't think there is any need for that new XML feature


8/2 = 4
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 6 - Page 5)

Postby ISN2 on Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:17 pm

natty_dread wrote:
ISN2: Well by default if we divide 8 castles for any of 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 players they will get 1 or 2 castles and I don't think there is any need for that new XML feature


8/2 = 4

Well I believe it was yourself who did teach me that in 1v1 (2 players) it gets divided into 3 and 1 of them goes natural right? So in a 2 players game it is still (8/3), right?
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 6 - Page 5)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:18 pm

ISN2 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
ISN2: Well by default if we divide 8 castles for any of 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 players they will get 1 or 2 castles and I don't think there is any need for that new XML feature


8/2 = 4

Well I believe it was yourself who did teach me that in 1v1 (2 players) it gets divided into 3 and 1 of them goes natural right? So in a 2 players game it is still (8/3), right?


That only applies to regular territories, not starting positions. Starting positions are always divided equally. And if you want the castles to start with 4 troops, they must be coded as starting positions.
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 6 - Page 5)

Postby ISN2 on Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:26 pm

natty_dread wrote:
ISN2 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
ISN2: Well by default if we divide 8 castles for any of 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 players they will get 1 or 2 castles and I don't think there is any need for that new XML feature


8/2 = 4

Well I believe it was yourself who did teach me that in 1v1 (2 players) it gets divided into 3 and 1 of them goes natural right? So in a 2 players game it is still (8/3), right?


That only applies to regular territories, not starting positions. Starting positions are always divided equally. And if you want the castles to start with 4 troops, they must be coded as starting positions.

Oh, thanks for the info, didn't know that for starting with an amount we should use starting positions, thanks O:)
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby ISN2 on Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:28 am

Update 7:
1. Empires now can one-way attack into farmlands and farmlands can not attack back.

2. Posts are renamed into Villages.

3. Each village can now one-way attack into two empires through tunnels that can bee seen on the map.

4. Graphical tunnel ways added into the map to show exactly where each village can attack.

5. A change in Snowy Lands borders is made to make the Snowy Lands Castle connected into all other Snowy Lands territories like all other Empires (For balancing things).

6. Legend has been rebuilt with 50px more height for adding new info, a small map added to show where are Empires and where are Farmlands, also symbols are added and new rules are written in legend.

7. A few small problems fixed.

8. Natural numbers changed into new rules on the map.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Map Rules:
1. Each player starts the game on 1 or 2 castles depending on number of players.

2. Each castle has 4 armies at start and has a +1 bonus.

3. Players get 1 army per every 3 territories. The minimum army getting is 3 armies (Like normal maps).

4. There is a barracks territory in each empire bordering the castle with 4 naturals on it. The barracks territory has an auto deploy bonus of 4 per turn.

5. All other empire territories will start with 2 naturals on them except 2 bordering territories with other empires that will start with 16 naturals.

6. Having any 5 empire territories will have a +3 bonus.
Note: castle and barracks are counted as empire territories too.

7. Having any 2 farmland territories will have a +1 bonus.
Note: villages are counted as farmland territories too.

8. Every player must have at least 1 castle or will be eliminated.

9. Six of farmlands in middle of map have low number of naturals on them, 2 or 4. Sixteen of bordering farmlands with empires have 8 naturals and the other four farmlands are villages.

10. Villages are territories in farmlands named "Grail Village", "Silk Village", "Viller Camp" and "Tent" and will start with 16 naturals on each and will have an auto deploy of 8 each turn.

11. Villages can one-way attack into empires using tunnels shown on them map.

12. Empires can one-way attack into farmlands.
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:45 pm

It would be nice to show the one-way attacks more clearly. The tunnels are kinda cool, but it makes it look two-way. And the one-way empire-to-farmland arrow or whatever doesn't even show up on the map. You should try to make it so people don't have the chance of screwing up an Escalating Spoils cash run, if you know what I mean...
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby OliverFA on Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:12 am

A bit late, but here are the promised comments. Please take them as constructive comments. If something looks offensive, it's because I didn't explain myself properly.

If I understand correctly the map, there are 8 Empires, that border the farmlands. However, there is an empire called "Braves Kingdom" and other empires called in different ways. I think it would be nicer if you said that the succesor states of the Empire are just kingoms. Instead of saying "eight empires were formed" I would say "eight kingdoms were formed". This would express the idea that there is only one Empire, and that the little succesor estates are by no mean an empire. And of course, change "Empires" to "Kingdoms" like when you say "+3 for any 5 territories in each empire" it would say "+3 for any 5 territories in each kingdom". Then the fought would be for reuniting The Empire.

The +3 for holding 5 territories in each empire can be a bit confusing for new players. Each empire has 5 numbered territories plus a barrack and a castle. It's easy for a new player to misunderstand that those 5 territories are exactly the 5 numbered territories

In the mini-map I would color each kingdom in a different way. Or, if you want to keep just red colour, remove a couple of "Empires" labels leaving it at only two labels but allowing to see the division between the sub-empires more clearly.

I don't really get the thing about villages one way attacking the empires. On one way it does not make much sense to me. But on the strictly gameplay side I think it is already a pretty open map. There is no need to make it even more open.

Why the barracks can only bombard the farmland territories adjacent to their empire? In my opinion, it does not make much sense to me either. They should be able to bombard all their empire too. I would remove their autodeploy and place it in the castles. This would help protecting castles and avoid sudden eliminations, specially in the early game. Maybe also rename them "defense turrets" instead of barracks so it acts as an explanation of why they can bombard.

If you don't want to provide +4 autodeploy to the castles, what about dividing Barracks into Barracks and Defense Turrets? This would provide another special territory and also avoid the 5 territories misunderstanding.

I think that's all for the moment. Keep up with the good job :)
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby MarshalNey on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:18 am

OliverFA wrote:If I understand correctly the map, there are 8 Empires, that border the farmlands. However, there is an empire called "Braves Kingdom" and other empires called in different ways. I think it would be nicer if you said that the succesor states of the Empire are just kingoms. Instead of saying "eight empires were formed" I would say "eight kingdoms were formed". This would express the idea that there is only one Empire, and that the little succesor estates are by no mean an empire. And of course, change "Empires" to "Kingdoms" like when you say "+3 for any 5 territories in each empire" it would say "+3 for any 5 territories in each kingdom". Then the fought would be for reuniting The Empire.

I second this suggestion, good change even though it's flavor it definitely helps the theme.

OliverFA wrote:The +3 for holding 5 territories in each empire can be a bit confusing for new players. Each empire has 5 numbered territories plus a barrack and a castle. It's easy for a new player to misunderstand that those 5 territories are exactly the 5 numbered territories

In the mini-map I would color each kingdom in a different way. Or, if you want to keep just red colour, remove a couple of "Empires" labels leaving it at only two labels but allowing to see the division between the sub-empires more clearly.

Also in agreement with these, although I think little by little the clarity will improve as the gameplay solidifies.

OliverFA wrote:I don't really get the thing about villages one way attacking the empires. On one way it does not make much sense to me. But on the strictly gameplay side I think it is already a pretty open map. There is no need to make it even more open.

Hmmm, with the neutrals beforehand, I disagree that it was an open map. Plus, I think the tunnels not only look nice but from a gameplay framework standpoint give the center an importance that it would not have otherwise. Without a one-way attack in and out, the center will likely become either ignored completely or overpowering. The losing conditions make all the difference here; a 'wise' player would just stack on his castle and then go for a quick elimination without the incentive of a medium-risk, high-benefit carrot.

OliverFA wrote:Why the barracks can only bombard the farmland territories adjacent to their empire? In my opinion, it does not make much sense to me either. They should be able to bombard all their empire too. I would remove their autodeploy and place it in the castles. This would help protecting castles and avoid sudden eliminations, specially in the early game. Maybe also rename them "defense turrets" instead of barracks so it acts as an explanation of why they can bombard.

The verbage was (is) confusing to me as well, but I think what is intended is that the Farmlands are only the 'F' regions, so that the Barracks don't bombard the 'home turf (empire regions)' but rather bombard the 'F' regions in the center that border the empire.

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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:11 pm

After a fortnightly review, I noticed there hasn't been an update for sometime. So, come the next fortnightly review, if there isn't an update made, we will have to move into the Recycling Bin until the mapmaker makes an update. :cry:
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby ISN2 on Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:26 pm

I will have an update in next few weeks (Not sure exactly when), I'm so busy these days with my job and my life and I have not much time to be around and work on this map like first days, but that doesn't mean I didn't read reviews and comments, I always check them and will use them in my next update. O:)
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby OliverFA on Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:06 pm

Looking forward to this new update!
Welcoming the long awaited Trench Warfare Setting (Previously Adjacent Attacks).

My Maps:
Research and Conquer - Civilization meets Conquer Club

Best score: 2,346 - Best position: #618 - Best percentile: 4.87%
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Re: Lorn Empire (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:57 am

first of all i do like the idea, however:

Graphics:

- The legend does not match the map at all
- The army circles are unclear and also do not match the map
- the font and especially the white glow behind the letters does not match the map.
- the white dots in the water are superfluous, everyone with half a brain knows that the docks connect, even without the dots.

Gameplay

- It's unclear why farmlands can't attack back, it's flat land, so what is even blocking the attacks back to the empires?
- a tent is not a village, nor is a camp, you should seriously consider renaming to avoid massive confusion.
- it's hard to tell if snowy lands 2 and 3 connect or not, there's trees in front (or on top of) the borders, but it's not sure if they're ment to block the path or not, the same counts for many other borders.
- it took me several minutes to figure out where the tunnels where, it's also unclear to me why tunnels would be one-way, unless they were hidden from one side, i understand the gameplay reason and it's quite fun, it just doesn't make sense the way it's now. at the very least a tunnel on the legend should look more like a tunnel on the map (add an actual tunnel and not just the exit/entrance)
- The legend sais +3 for 5 territories in each empire, can i have 3 territories in the woodland and 2 in the infernal empire and still get the bonus, or do i need 5 in the woodlands alone? it makes a huge difference in gameplay.
- why can barracks bombard? it trains soldiers, soldiers don't bombard? make an archery range or siege workshop to bombard. and why would anyone bombard farmland in the first place?


it's a map with potential, but a lot of work has to be done before it gets playable.

P.S. sorry if i sound offensive, i do not mean to be offensive i'm just trying to give you my opinion on the map.
Last edited by zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lorn Empire [Graphics Designed + Updated]

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:05 am

natty_dread wrote:You don't have that dark parts in there. Most of your territories are pretty light.

The army circles do not fit the semi-realistic style of your map. They clutter it up, and cover up the nice graphics you have. If you remove them, your map will look 156.2% better.


i think he should try to come up with army circles that actually fit the theme.
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Re: Lorn Empire [Graphics Designed + Updated]

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:09 am

natty_dread wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image



this image actualy looks quite good.
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Re: Lorn Empire [14 Apr 2011] (Update 7 - Page 6)

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:11 pm

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made. ;-)
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Re: [Vacation - valid untill Jan 2012] - Lorn Empire

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:41 am

Forgot about this map...but I kind of like it. Hopefully you'll come back to it!


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Re: [Abandoned] - Lorn Empire

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:24 pm

The six months of vacation has expired, for this reason this topic is now labeled as [Abandoned]. If the original mapmaker wants to continue this map project it's fine but an update must provided. From this moment anyone else is free to take this project without the original mapmaker permission, but it has to be started from the scratch.

Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
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