[Abandoned] Tokyo

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Re: Tokyo

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:47 pm

I notice you've got two territories called Kagurazaka and they're right next to each other. Probably would be a good idea to alter that fact.
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Re: Tokyo

Postby zimmah on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:26 am

MrBenn wrote:I like the cartoony style - I think the Animé theme could work well (although I'd switch out for a much cleaner, modern font). Stylistically, I don;t know if you're wanting to reflect something like this: http://www.tourism.metro.tokyo.jp/english/welcome/index.html?



giving it a manga feel would definitly be very suitable for this map.

I think haneda airport should also be on the map, not neccesarely as a conquerable region but at least as a visible place.


also, above the map title (Tokyo) i'd add 東京 the kanji spelling of Tokyo (Actually Toukyou)
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Re: Tokyo

Postby shakeycat on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:25 pm

Evil DIMwit - thanks, I don't know how that happened! Will correct.

Zimmah, kanji sounds appropriate. Haneda is too far off the bottom of the map to include. It's right near Ota, the one missing ward.
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Re: Tokyo

Postby shakeycat on Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:12 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


MarshalNey:

There are now:
29 Suburban regions (added 6 - 1 to Kita, 1 to Katsushika, 2 to Setagaya, 2 in splitting Nakano)
26 Old Tokyo regions (2 are landmarks and will start neutral)
31 Central Tokyo regions (added 1 to Shibuya)

13 parks, all start neutral.
9 landmarks, all start neutral. 2 are also Old Tokyo regions.

86 deployable regions in all, 20 neutral starts, 106 total.

2 or 3 player games, 28 each, 2 neutral (9 troops)
4 player games, 21 each, 2 neutral (7 troops)
5 player games, 17 each, 1 neutral (5 troops)
6 player games, 14 each, 2 neutral (4 troops)
7 player games, 12 each, 2 neutral (4 troops)
8 player games, 10 each, 6 neutral (3 troops)

It seems that:
a deployment of 23 or more regions guarantees at least 3 bonuses (worst case scenario, 9, 9, 5 in the three population bonus areas)
a deployment of 18 or more regions guarantees at least 2 bonuses (9, 9, 0)
a deployment of 13 or more regions guarantees at least 1 bonus (4, 4, 5)

Please correct me if I'm wrong and explain why, because my numbers are different from yours! It changes slightly if my numbers are correct, since 6 player games will include 1 bonus per player. Once you've double-checked this I can put it in he first post.

Instead of adding more neutrals, I could break up 3-region territories using drops.

Player 1
Tabata (Kita)
Minami-senji Rail yard (Arakawa)
Kinegawa (Katsushika)
Mukojima (Sumida)
Koyama (Shinagawa)
Koenji (Nakano)

Player 2
Oji (Kita)
Ogu (Arakawa)
Yotsugi (Katsushika)
Azuma-bashi (Sumida)
Shinagawa Seaside (Shinagawa)
Kosei (Nakano)

Player 3
Takinogawa (Kita)
Nippori (Arakawa)
Takaramachi (Katsushika)
Honjo (Sumida)
Osaki (Shinagawa)
Arai (Nakano)

Do you foresee any problems with an arrangement like this? I know we don't like too many drops, it can take some of the fun out.
It would, in a 2 player game, guarantee each player at least 4 blue territories.
At 86 deployable regions, at least one region will always start neutral, so to take one territory out of the drop and give it a neutral would make no difference.

------------------

I like this activation idea. It just seems too much that someone in a 2 player game would drop with 9 troops, then have a guaranteed +3 bonus, total 12. The first player to go would have an excellent advantage. Those 12 troops could easily mean the next player only starts with 8 troops and no bonus. If the activation has to take place, he would have to aim for a landmark instead of his opponent, and pay the "admission fee".

I made the landmarks neutral. How many neutrals should landmarks start with, if this is the case? Plus I'll need to learn how this activation is done in XML.


2 and 3 bonus region areas - bumped one up to 4, the rest up to 3. Made 3 worth +1 across the board, 4 is +2, 5 is +3. It doesn't look like there are any that will be ridiculously easy to hold, except maybe New Koto.


On clarity and graphics:

(1) Tokyo U and Tokyo Dome - Bunkyo bonus will include them to a total of +2 for 5 territories. It will take killing the neutrals off both, but once held, it could pull in +4 total bonus with 1 more Landmark held elsewhere. Filled in the circles behind other landmarks with grey as a visual cue that they are not part of any coloured bonus group (except Rainbow Bridge, which is between two groups anyway). If the cue is not enough, I can explain that "Landmarks are only part of the Landmark bonus group, except for Tokyo Dome and Tokyo U."

(2) Made colours more colourblind friendly. Still might be difficult to match up territories to their bonus in the legend, and for this reason I do keep the name of each territory on the map portion. No colours are duplicated, except Suburban territories without larger bonus regions which are all the same shade of blue.

(3) Noted in the legend.

------------------

Evil DIMWit: One of them is now called "Suido".
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Re: Tokyo

Postby zimmah on Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:53 pm

shakeycat wrote:I made the landmarks neutral. How many neutrals should landmarks start with, if this is the case? Plus I'll need to learn how this activation is done in XML.


Code: Select all
<territory>
   <name>Roppongi</name>
   <borders>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx></smallx>
      <smally></smally>
      <largex></largex>
      <largey></largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>5</neutral> /* Starting neutrals */
   <bonus>2</bonus> /* Autodeploy (can be negative) */
</territory>


like this. i put an example of the whole territory code as the order is important.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby shakeycat on Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:37 am

I don't think that's the code for activation... neutrals and autodeploy I did with Vancouver :) I'll have to dig through that 2nd Indochina thread, and Napoleonic Europe to see what Marshal meant in his earlier post.

.. and upon looking at Napoleonic Europe, it looks like a nice bunch of bonus groups broken down by the increments by which the bonus goes up, then an override with a bonus when both capital and bonus group are owned.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:59 am

i misunderstood you, i thought you was talking about the autodeploy on the parks for some reason (i don't even know where i got that idea from)

if you mean the manual deploy on the landmarks (+1 for each 3) that's quite simple really.

as for the territory, just make them like any normal territory.

Code: Select all
<continent>
<name>Three Landmarks</name>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Tokyo Tower</territory>
<territory>Tokyo University</territory>
<territory>Thunder Gate</territory>
<territory>Asahi Beer Hall</territory>
<territory>Meiji Shrine</territory>
<territory>Imperial Palace</territory>
<territory>Tokyo Dome</territory>
<territory>Rainbow Bridge</territory>
<territory>Fuji TV Station</territory>
</components>
<required>3</required>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>Six Landmarks</name>
<bonus>2</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Tokyo Tower</territory>
<territory>Tokyo University</territory>
<territory>Thunder Gate</territory>
<territory>Asahi Beer Hall</territory>
<territory>Meiji Shrine</territory>
<territory>Imperial Palace</territory>
<territory>Tokyo Dome</territory>
<territory>Rainbow Bridge</territory>
<territory>Fuji TV Station</territory>
</components>
<required>6</required>
<overrides>
<override>Three Landmarks</override>
</overrides>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>All Landmarks</name>
<bonus>3</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Tokyo Tower</territory>
<territory>Tokyo University</territory>
<territory>Thunder Gate</territory>
<territory>Asahi Beer Hall</territory>
<territory>Meiji Shrine</territory>
<territory>Imperial Palace</territory>
<territory>Tokyo Dome</territory>
<territory>Rainbow Bridge</territory>
<territory>Fuji TV Station</territory>
</components>
<overrides>
<override>Six Landmarks</override>  <!-- Note you don't have to override Three landmarks, as Six landsmarks ALLREADY does that. -->
</overrides>
</continent>


if you want you can even copy-paste this template into your map XML.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby shakeycat on Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:40 pm

Thank you, but that too is something I've done before - it's actually the less common activation bit that is new to me. In Napoleonic Europe, you need to hold a capital in order to get the bonus for the territories with swords on them. But I've looked at it, and when the time comes to write the XML, I think I can wrap my brain around it :) I do appreciate your helpfulness, and will ask if I reach some dilemma when writing it up.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:02 pm

that's easy too, you just use the same code like i wrote above, but you include something extra.

for example, if you want the landmarks to give no bonus, unless you also hold shibuja for example, you use the code i showed above but you set the <bonus></bonus> to 0.

then you write another piece of code that has the other continent as a requirement, in essence you just combine two continents into one, overriding the individual continents.

Code: Select all
<continent>
<name>Shibuja and 3 Landmarks</name>
<bonus>4</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Shibuja</territory>
<continent>Three Landmarks</continent>
</components>
<overrides>
<override>Three Landmarks</override>
</overrides>
</continent>
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby shakeycat on Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:45 am

Yeah, that's something like it. It's a bunch of repeating for each group and overrides and stuff. Anyway - we can talk XML once we get to that stage. First - Gameplay, then - Graphics! So long as we know that the Gameplay I intend for this map is doable in XML (and it is, since we see it in play on other maps), there is no issue at this point in time. Since there may still be changes (and big ones even) to the gameplay, I am holding off on writing out the XML until the rest gets the big rubber stamp.
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Re: Tokyo [Jun 24]

Postby zimmah on Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:20 am

shakeycat wrote:Yeah, that's something like it. It's a bunch of repeating for each group and overrides and stuff. Anyway - we can talk XML once we get to that stage. First - Gameplay, then - Graphics! So long as we know that the Gameplay I intend for this map is doable in XML (and it is, since we see it in play on other maps), there is no issue at this point in time. Since there may still be changes (and big ones even) to the gameplay, I am holding off on writing out the XML until the rest gets the big rubber stamp.


i understand. i was just showing examples tho and those scraps didn't take me more then 1 minute to write anyway :)
if you come up with things that are truly not possible, i'll let you know.
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby shakeycat on Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:17 am

Work in progress:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Put in the neutral numbers for Parks and Landmarks. Is there any gameplay left to clear up?

Are the impassibles all right, do they need to be in the legend or is it kind of obvious? Are there any areas that are just too open? The map is pretty open as it is, but perhaps a few territories have too many borders.

Is the bonus structure fair? Similar Napoleonic Europe, one must take a Landmark before they can start to earn the Population Bonus. Because of the population bonus, the area bonuses are smaller.

The graphics, heading toward a more comic style, still work to do. Must clean up borders, all overlappy and messy. If any ideas on how to go further in this direction, do share!
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:45 am

I think you could use some more contrast between playable/non-playable areas.
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby zimmah on Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:43 am

i don't knopw if i fully understand the population bonus, it's a nice concept, however i don't understand what you mean by 'the same area'.

as far as i can see, there's no park in the suburban area's so it's impossable to get a populaton bonus there?
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby shakeycat on Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:00 am

zimmah wrote:i don't knopw if i fully understand the population bonus, it's a nice concept, however i don't understand what you mean by 'the same area'.

as far as i can see, there's no park in the suburban area's so it's impossable to get a populaton bonus there?


Ah - I switched the wording around and now it doesn't make sense, you're right. I will go back to "Earn +1 for every 5 territories held within the same area of Tokyo (Central, Old, or Suburban) when at least one Landmark is held." I had wanted to make the Landmark part first and foremost, but it ended up changing the meaning.

natty_dread wrote:I think you could use some more contrast between playable/non-playable areas.


Is it clear that the only 'non playable area' is the water and the legend? I'm thinking now that periphery territories where I have faded names (Nerima, Itabashi, Suginami, etc.) are looking almost unplayable, as if they are outlying states we don't care about .. that needs to change. If you meant something else, please tell me.
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Re: Tokyo [9 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:19 pm

shakeycat wrote:Is it clear that the only 'non playable area' is the water and the legend? I'm thinking now that periphery territories where I have faded names (Nerima, Itabashi, Suginami, etc.) are looking almost unplayable, as if they are outlying states we don't care about .. that needs to change. If you meant something else, please tell me.


The legend is ok, being brighter than everything else, but the water is very similar in tone, lightness, texture and saturation as the playable areas - there's not enough contrast between them. Some kind of contrast would do wonders for the clarity of the map. For example, the water could be darker than all of the playable areas - then there would be a lightness contrast between them. Or the other way around.

Another thing that can help is if you make the borders between land & sea stronger than the other territory borders. A dark inner glow for the water could also help.

Or you could utilize texture - give the land a smooth & shiny texture while making the sea coarse and noisy, or the other way around... although if you want to go for a "comic" look then strong textures probably aren't the best idea.

Another way is making the water a colour that is different from all of the land colours, but you have so many bonus areas that this can be difficult to achieve.

There's various ways of achieving contrast, but the important thing is that the playable areas "stand out" from the non-playable/impassable areas, this makes it easy to visualize and grasp the connections between the territories, which makes for a map that is easy to read.
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Re: Tokyo [10 Jul 2011]

Postby shakeycat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:49 am

Would something like this work?

Click image to enlarge.
image


Monochrome water, bold texture instead of more subtle texture on lands. Not sure if I like the texture I added to the land though. But I like the newspaper water compared to the purple water before.
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Re: Tokyo [10 Jul 2011]

Postby natty dread on Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:36 am

Actually, that looks pretty good. Could you try rotating the land texture a few degrees though? It might look a bit more natural that way.
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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby shakeycat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:03 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Thanks - rotated and looks better to me! Also turned the paper texture back on to block the lines behind (oops!). Yesterday's update looks like sitting too close to the TV screen or something.
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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:06 pm

There's a border missing between Nerima and Itabashi (top left).

There's a nice feel to the map now - it definitely works better than the over-brightness of before. What might be nice is a very slight paper texture to the background - not old parchment, but plain newspapery... perhaps one of these might work (especially the top one):

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs4/i/2004/256/6/8/Texture_1___sugar_paper_by_LL_stock.jpg

http://www.deviantart.com/download/125574004/Old_Grunger_Paper_Texture_04_by_fudgegraphics.jpg
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/162/6/6/Old_Grunger_Paper_Texture_08_by_fudgegraphics.jpg
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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby DiM on Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:22 pm

since this is tokyo wouldn't rice paper texture fit better than simple paper? or perhaps a sheet of nori...
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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:50 pm

DiM wrote:since this is tokyo wouldn't rice paper texture fit better than simple paper? or perhaps a sheet of nori...

Here's one that might work:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/201/8/c/Rice_paper_texture_by_MapleRose_stock.jpg
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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:08 pm

I assume the population bonus comes into effect for all regions when a landmark is held? I noticed Suburban Tokyo has no landmark.

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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:47 pm

I like the direction the graphics are going with this map, I think you'll end up with unique graphics.


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Re: Tokyo [11 Jul 2011]

Postby gimil on Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:35 pm

I disagree with the suggestion to add anymore texture, specially a paper texture. In my opinion the current texture and colouring is perfect and give a sort of manga/comic book feel that you sometimes get with the Japaneses.

I would vote for the texture to remain as is.
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