[Abandoned] - Cairo

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Re: Days of Revolt: Cairo

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:08 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Well, I dont want the bonuses to be even. The anti-gov people won, their bonus should lead to swifter victory. That's why they're uneven.

But the army...? Mubarak didn't use them to their full potential, I think they could have wiped out a lot of people...
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Re: Days of Revolt: Cairo

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:34 pm

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Re: Days of Revolt: Cairo

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:09 pm

;) Thanks!

Yeah, i guess you're right about the army... I can be happy with 5.

Any other gameplay concerns?
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Re: Cairo - Gameplay concerns?

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:54 am

I'll look at this one tomorrow. Sorry for the delays everyone has been experiencing.
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Re: Cairo - Gameplay concerns?

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:57 pm

I have to say that I like the graphics and general layout. A small map makes this a desperate, short battle, so good choice there too.

Unfortunately I've also got a few bones to pick here:

(1) OK, you'll probably hate me Helix for saying this but... your concept here is in direct conflict with what I percieve as balanced gameplay. The idea that the side that 'won' (for however long that may or may not last) should be the best bonus to both have and be the easiest to hold and be the easiest to take is well... let's just say that using "Australia" in the Classic map as a precedent is not a convincing argument for me. Australia in Classic is not so much famous as it is notorious. And it's rare to see arguments that state that it actually enhances the gameplay of the map (most often I see it defended as being a non-detriment).

Really, it's okay for a bonus to payoff better than others, but then that could be balanced by having it harder to hold. Or, it could be harder to take (like starting with neutrals for instance). But the trifecta of rich, defensible and easy is anaethema. Add to this that the map also has its version of "Asia" in the Army bonus, and It will be dubbed the "Pray-You-Drop-in-the-Rebel-Bonus Map".

(2) The dead-ends are ubiquitous for such a small map. A small number of regions does not have to translate to a small number of strategic options, unless you have a lot of dead ends. I'd pity the player who dropped the State Television HQ and Lower Kornish regions in the upper part of the map, as they would have only one option: to attack the Security Forces Base, which is a relatively useless region in a nearly impossible bonus. A similarly one-dimensional (albeit more attractive) attack route would exist for a player who dropped in the lower half. These kinds of drops are much more likely too, since you've only got 20 regions. Which brings me to my last concern...

(3) The number of regions may not mesh well with the layout of map for larger numbers of players. Dropping just 2 regions in a map filled with dead ends and unevenly balanced bonuses makes this even more of a slot machine experience than other maps of similar size. Might I suggest that dropping 3 regions would make a huge difference?

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Re: Cairo - Gameplay concerns?

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:41 am

1 and 2) I see what you're saying. the Rebels are easy to hold, pay off bigger and are easily defensible. Being one or maybe two of those is desirable, but I'm going overkill here. So what I've done is removed some of the barricades and altered some of the borders... I've noticed maybe two dead ends, State tv and the Parliament Building.

3) I'd be hard pressed to fit 6 more regions in there without making stuff up... i've already made too much up, imo. Yes, the map is going to be a little difficult on 7 and 8 player settings, but with 6, a player will get 3 regions and 2-5 players should be a really fun map to play. I argue that the map would be no worse off that Doodle or Lux. when it comes to 7-8 players.

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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/08/11

Postby Riskismy on Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:01 am

I'd argue that we should learn from the weaknesses of prior maps.

You wouldn't need to make things up, just divide up the larger territories a bit. Tahrir sq. in 2-4 territories, some of the longer roads in 2.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/08/11

Postby natty dread on Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:12 am

I have a gameplay clarity suggestion:

The government buildings and Egyptian army are both kinda hard to distinguish from the background. All the other areas are coloured, which makes a nice contrast to the black and white background, but those two are also grey so they are hard to see against the background. I suggest changing the colour of those areas to make them more noticeable.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/08/11

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Riskismy - Well, I want to make this a small map. I would hardly call Doodle Earth a mistake as well, so I'm running on the that precedent. Marshal had some good points about too many dead ends... so I've fixed that. I could open it up potentially more though if necessary.

Natty - Well... I'm trying to run along the lines of the Egyptian flag, red, black, white and gold. The army seems to differentiate just fine, imo. Maybe the gov't buildings are a little tough... but then again, they all have that white line and the texture difference is played down quite a bit by the color over it. Not to mention, the territories all have numbers and names on them. There's quite a bit pointing to what the shape of the territory. Overall, i think it is quite clear that they are separate from the non-playable part of the map.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/08/11

Postby natty dread on Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:54 pm

I'm get the idea of following the flag colours, and it would work if those colours wouldn't mix up with the background so easily.

Yes, of course you can tell where territories are by numbers, but having territories that are so hard to see makes the map hard to read overall. I mean, you can't grasp the shape of the map with a glance, you have to spend that extra time finding the army numbers, which makes it sort of unfriendly to the players.

Playing the egypt theme with the flag colours is all well and good, but may I remind you of the most important gameplay guideline: function trumps form... ;)

Now you're saying that the army area differentiates just fine... sorry, but I beg to differ here. It has exactly the same saturation, level of focus and tone as the background. If it weren't for the white borders, it would be indistinguishable from the river. Heck, I just now found the Al Gezara territory - earlier I mistook it as part of the background...

The goverment buildings are only slightly better... they get lost in between the houses/buildings, being of the same tone.

Now, there are some options on how to solve this. Firstly, you could make the background darker and the Egypt army territories lighter, so that there would be a clear light/dark contrast between playable/non-playable areas. Or, you could blur out the non-playable area, to raise the playable area into focus... but this would lose a lot of detail and realistic feel of the map... the third option would be to change the Egypt army & Goverment areas so that they would be different shades of yellow and red. You would still be using flag colours, just not all of them...

Well, that's my 2 cents... you're doing a good job with the map, I'm sure you'll figure out a way to improve playability while maintaining a strong thematic consistency.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/08/11

Postby Riskismy on Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:08 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Riskismy - Well, I want to make this a small map. I would hardly call Doodle Earth a mistake as well, so I'm running on the that precedent. Marshal had some good points about too many dead ends... so I've fixed that. I could open it up potentially more though if necessary.


I didn't say anything about mistake. I said doodle earth had weaknesses, and those are far from the same. I haven't yet seen a map without weaknesses to some extend.

I know lots of people like the constricted, 'tight corners' feel to the map, and it's not without allure to me, but I nearly always feel too cramped. I guess that's just my personal preferences shining through, when I ask you to open it up. It's fine that you disregard that request, there's plenty of room for niche maps (no offence meant!). I hope myself to put some niche maps out there in good time. 8-)
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/08/11

Postby MarshalNey on Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:46 pm

Yay, a thousand times better Helix :)

I'm seeing better attack routes, more options, better balance here.

My only preference (if you can cook something up) would be to also do something about that "Asia" bonus of 6 contiguous regions and a split-off region; when you think about it, that's over a third of the entire map! That might be an unpredcendented proportion of total regions for a bonus continent, but that's just a guess.

Anyway, it's just a wish, so don't tear your hair out over it, but look into it if you can as I think it would improve the map's gameplay. Maybe a build-a-bonus similar to the government buildings (but slower)? Hmmm, the number 7 isn't quite ideal here... if there were 8, it would be nice to maybe say +2 for any 4, that way it would still be +4 for holding the entire set of 8 regions.

As for adding regions, well... I certainly wouldn't stop you if you could add a couple, but by eliminating some of the dead ends and evening the bonuses a bit, it isn't critical.

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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/08/11

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:57 pm

I was think a build a bonus system might be better as well. This could go two ways:

1)(my preferred choice) Build a bonus with a common piece of the Security Forces Base. Hold Security forces with the two bridges and Al Gazara for +2, Hold Security forces base with the Courtyard and the two Kornish Al Nil pieces for +2. Total value +4. I would do this with a black and dark gray.

2) Hold any 4 for +2, all 7 for +4.

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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/08/11

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:44 pm

Ok, because nobody cares to look at anything but an updated map, here's what I went with for the Army bonus for simplicity's sake.

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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/14/11

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:39 pm

No need to get your bickers in a twist, dear...

Looks good, though I think Anti-Gov't is equally attainable as Pro-Gov't now, correct? Seems they should have equal bonus.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/14/11

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:49 pm

Right, didn't mean to sound upset or angry or anything. But it's true. Moswt people only ever comment when there is a fresh update, if at all.

As for the bonuses... yeah, let's even them out at 3 each.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/14/11

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:44 am

Whoops, didn't answer your question but yes I like the decision you made for the Egyptian Army. I think I'll send this to the others to see what they think, I'm satisfied.

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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/14/11

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:19 pm

Tack has no objections, and ian seems okay with it. Therefore a stamp is warranted. Now where did I put it...

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Aha! Congratulations, Helix, may this be another successful tiny map in the tradition of Doodle and Cyprus.

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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/14/11

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:26 pm

Bam! IH is hot tonight, amiright? 'Grats on stamp number two!...but what about the two map policy? This is his third in this Workshop.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/14/11

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:46 am

Sullivan... always trying to rain on my parade... I'm moving Cuba to the bin anyway so i can sort out what I'm going to do with the graphics.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/14/11

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:44 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Sullivan... always trying to rain on my parade... I'm moving Cuba to the bin anyway so i can sort out what I'm going to do with the graphics.

:( I'm sorry, Helix...


So for this map, what is your plan? I think you could experiment with different fonts, as I'm not convinced this is the most appropriate one out there. Also, I think you could do something with the picture stylistically, like make them not quite so...just pasted on there.
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Re: Cairo - update p4, 04/14/11

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue May 10, 2011 12:52 pm

Ok, I've been getting a lot of feedback off the boards and been deciding what to do.

One suggestion was to take an outline approach to the map... its rough, but here's an idea of where its going... Does this make the map any clearer?
Click image to enlarge.
image


The other approach, I believe I should credit Natty_Dread, increases the opacity of the government buildings and Security forces to better distinguish them from the nonplayable parts of the map.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Personally, I think the second option is better. I think the current layout of the map works, assuming some more adjustments, and I kind of don't like this outline aestetically and functionally.

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Re: Cairo - update p6 5/10/11

Postby isaiah40 on Tue May 10, 2011 2:14 pm

Now that I see it this way, the previous version is clear IMO. I'll think on this some more though.
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Re: Cairo - update p6 5/10/11

Postby natty dread on Tue May 10, 2011 4:13 pm

I believe you posted the same image twice... ;)

Anyway, the black borders could work if they were slightly thinner.

I'll wait until I see the version with the higher-opacity government buildings, but in this one you posted they're still too hard to see... You could try bright white borders for them, maybe?
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Re: Cairo - update p6 5/10/11

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu May 12, 2011 10:07 am

Ah crap... so I did. I updated the original post, here it is again.

Click image to enlarge.
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