Knights & Warlocks - V15 - page 1&12

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [17.Oct.11] - V5 - page 1&2

Postby DiM on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:54 pm

pretty please... 8-[
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [17.Oct.11] - V5 - page 1&2

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:12 pm

isaiah40 wrote:[MOVED] per request.
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Re: [Vacation - valid untill Apr 2012] - Knights & Warlocks

Postby DiM on Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:39 am

V6:

*started working on the legend
*changed some bombardment rules.
*tweaked some text

i forgot to add a losing condition that you must hold at least 1 knight warlock to survive.
and i'm thinking a good winning condition would be to unite all knights or unite all warlocks.

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [23.Nov.11] - V6 - page 1&3

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:20 am

Welcome back! :)

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [23.Nov.11] - V6 - page 1&3

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:42 am

In the legend, I'd consider changing >>> to actual arrows -->, just so that people don't start thinking about greater or less than signs, and try to apply that sort of reasoning to how bombardments work.


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Re: Knights & Warlocks [23.Nov.11] - V6 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:00 am

AndyDufresne wrote:In the legend, I'd consider changing >>> to actual arrows -->, just so that people don't start thinking about greater or less than signs, and try to apply that sort of reasoning to how bombardments work.


--Andy


already changed those to arrows.
the legend was just for gameplay describing purposes.
in the next update you'll see the new legend and the arrows. :D
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [23.Nov.11] - V6 - page 1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:46 pm

Groovy!

I'll have more words in a bit!

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [23.Nov.11] - V6 - page 1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:04 pm

Only two things for now: one, could you clarify the port connections in the legend? IMO, the ports should only connect to other ports along the same body of water. Second, could you post a version without the numbers? I want to start experimenting with the XML.

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [23.Nov.11] - V6 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:16 pm

i'm not sure if separating the ports as you suggest would add anything or change the gameplay significantly.
plus it would be kinda unrealistic to artificially limit them like that.

anyway here's V7:

*finalized legend.
*added arrows requested by andy

still haven't added the wining/losing conditions. would that add anything to the gameplay? should i add them?

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:19 pm

I think the losing conditions are important to have. What kind of winning condition did you have in mind?

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:23 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I think the losing conditions are important to have. What kind of winning condition did you have in mind?

-Sully


DiM wrote:a losing condition that you must hold at least 1 knight/warlock to survive.
and i'm thinking a good winning condition would be to unite all knights or unite all warlocks.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:26 pm

DiM wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:I think the losing conditions are important to have. What kind of winning condition did you have in mind?

-Sully


DiM wrote:a losing condition that you must hold at least 1 knight/warlock to survive.
and i'm thinking a good winning condition would be to unite all knights or unite all warlocks.

Ah, yes. I don't think the winning conditions are really necessary. But definitely go with the losing condition.

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:28 pm

ok, i'll add just the losing condition.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:38 pm

To clarify, are the villages the circles with no symbol or all circles?

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:07 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:To clarify, are the villages the circles with no symbol or all circles?

-Sully



absolutely all terits are villages. some of them are special villages that contain a cleric or a noble, or even a knight/warlock.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:45 pm

Gotcha! Thanks!

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:33 am

The roads could stand to stand out better from the background.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:22 am

DiM wrote:ok, i'll add just the losing condition.

I think I'm just in favor of a losing condition, and no winning condition, if you are adding conditions at all. I think the map is unique enough in theme and graphics you don't need to add too many additional gameplay elements to it.


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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby lostatlimbo on Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:47 pm

You've got some very nice textures in this map.

Judging by your losing condition, I presume that each player starts off with a Knight or a Warlock?

I am also assuming that all Ports connect (the legend doesn't mention this, but it must be so). It seems that it would be very easy to take out someone's Knight or Warlock on the first or second turn with good dice, which forces the losing condition. Am I reading this correctly? Perhaps the ports start at a higher neutral? But then it would make some of the Outlaws inaccessible/unusable.

I think it would really help to see some neutrals on the map at this stage, to help with understanding the gameplay nuances.

In what context does "connected to" refer in regards to the Farm/Mine/Lumber bonuses? Is it how many are chained together? How many are in the same colored region? Does the Farm/Mine/Lumber village itself count? (for example, I have Lo, Rinat, and Didy. Do I get +2 or +3 bonus?).

With such a harsh penalty on the Assassins/Clerics the Flying Monkeys & Griffins seem almost useless. No one will want to keep their troops on an Assassin/Cleric village, so bombarding them will be unnecessary. With a negative 2 bonus, I would want my opponent to keep their Assassin/Cleric. Perhaps you could give those another target? Such as Capitals or Nobles?

Whatever bombardment change you end up with, I think it would help a bit to have the icons laid out in a way that represents this better. For example, first row, Griffin > Assassin > Knight and a note saying arrows bombard. This would A) give you more room to explain some things and B) simplify the learning curve a little. Its easier for some to see it visually rather than read and reference relations separately.

Lastly, have you considered using Dragons instead of Flying Monkeys?

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:45 am

lostatlimbo wrote:You've got some very nice textures in this map.


thanks.

lostatlimbo wrote:Judging by your losing condition, I presume that each player starts off with a Knight or a Warlock?

I am also assuming that all Ports connect (the legend doesn't mention this, but it must be so). It seems that it would be very easy to take out someone's Knight or Warlock on the first or second turn with good dice, which forces the losing condition. Am I reading this correctly? Perhaps the ports start at a higher neutral? But then it would make some of the Outlaws inaccessible/unusable.


the losing condition wasn't set in stone but after some more consideration i have decided to add it, coupled with a few changes to make early eliminations impossible/very hard.

basically the knights/warlocks will be able to one-way attack surrounding terits and they will only be attacked via the bombardments from assassins/clerics.

lostatlimbo wrote:I think it would really help to see some neutrals on the map at this stage, to help with understanding the gameplay nuances.


in an earlier version i had the starting positions as well as the neutrals but i forgot to add them for the latest one. i'll make some changes and post a new version asap which will include neutrals.

lostatlimbo wrote:In what context does "connected to" refer in regards to the Farm/Mine/Lumber bonuses? Is it how many are chained together? How many are in the same colored region? Does the Farm/Mine/Lumber village itself count? (for example, I have Lo, Rinat, and Didy. Do I get +2 or +3 bonus?).


lo + rinat + didy will give you +2 because you have 2 villages connected to the farm. if you capture nec and tulangeo you'll get a further +2 for a total of +4. in somebody comes and takes didy, you'll not only lose the +1 for didy but also the +2 for nec and tulangeo because right now they're no longer connected to the farm in lo. however you can quickly take chu which is connected to tulangeo (and nec) and since it is a port it's also connected to rinat and now you're back to having +4.


lostatlimbo wrote:With such a harsh penalty on the Assassins/Clerics the Flying Monkeys & Griffins seem almost useless. No one will want to keep their troops on an Assassin/Cleric village, so bombarding them will be unnecessary. With a negative 2 bonus, I would want my opponent to keep their Assassin/Cleric. Perhaps you could give those another target? Such as Capitals or Nobles?


they're not useless in the context of being able to eliminate the enemy. see above.

lostatlimbo wrote:Whatever bombardment change you end up with, I think it would help a bit to have the icons laid out in a way that represents this better. For example, first row, Griffin > Assassin > Knight and a note saying arrows bombard. This would A) give you more room to explain some things and B) simplify the learning curve a little. Its easier for some to see it visually rather than read and reference relations separately.


i will try and implement this.

lostatlimbo wrote:Lastly, have you considered using Dragons instead of Flying Monkeys?


the flying monkeys are a special request so i shall keep them.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:50 am

V8:
*made the paths more visible
*added 1 way arrows
*changed the legend.

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [04.Dec.11] - V8 - page 1&4

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:06 pm

Sorry for the delay, I will take a look again at this this evening.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [04.Dec.11] - V8 - page 1&4

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:17 am

Looks epic.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:17 am

The legend looks much clearer now.

DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:In what context does "connected to" refer in regards to the Farm/Mine/Lumber bonuses? Is it how many are chained together? How many are in the same colored region? Does the Farm/Mine/Lumber village itself count? (for example, I have Lo, Rinat, and Didy. Do I get +2 or +3 bonus?).


lo + rinat + didy will give you +2 because you have 2 villages connected to the farm. if you capture nec and tulangeo you'll get a further +2 for a total of +4. in somebody comes and takes didy, you'll not only lose the +1 for didy but also the +2 for nec and tulangeo because right now they're no longer connected to the farm in lo. however you can quickly take chu which is connected to tulangeo (and nec) and since it is a port it's also connected to rinat and now you're back to having +4.


Ah, that's pretty cool. I like the gameplay implications of this.

I also see why you have Sully on this - that seems like an XML cluster only he could sift through. :)

I assume the extent of the "connected to" is within the same colored region?

DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:With such a harsh penalty on the Assassins/Clerics the Flying Monkeys & Griffins seem almost useless. No one will want to keep their troops on an Assassin/Cleric village, so bombarding them will be unnecessary. With a negative 2 bonus, I would want my opponent to keep their Assassin/Cleric. Perhaps you could give those another target? Such as Capitals or Nobles?


they're not useless in the context of being able to eliminate the enemy. see above.


Hmmm... perhaps there's an angle I'm missing. I can see some advantage in team play (bombarding your teammate's last troop to avoid the -2 penalty), but beyond that they seem similar to a killer neutral. The penalty of -2 troops and a decay of 5 makes it undesirable to leave any troops there. If my Knight/Warlock is the target, I'm deploying defensively and letting my opponent take a significant hit.

In All Your Bases, I don't assault the 10 neutral on Tech Level 3 unless I'm pretty sure I can finish with the win. I would think the same thing for Clerics/Assassins. I'm building up a good force and cashing in a set before I take a Cleric territory and if I fail to eliminate my opponent's Warlock, bombarding what's left of my Cleric troops would only help me by negating that -2.

I do like the back and forth of the bombardments, but I don't think I'd use the Griffkeys often.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:15 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:The legend looks much clearer now.

DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:In what context does "connected to" refer in regards to the Farm/Mine/Lumber bonuses? Is it how many are chained together? How many are in the same colored region? Does the Farm/Mine/Lumber village itself count? (for example, I have Lo, Rinat, and Didy. Do I get +2 or +3 bonus?).


lo + rinat + didy will give you +2 because you have 2 villages connected to the farm. if you capture nec and tulangeo you'll get a further +2 for a total of +4. in somebody comes and takes didy, you'll not only lose the +1 for didy but also the +2 for nec and tulangeo because right now they're no longer connected to the farm in lo. however you can quickly take chu which is connected to tulangeo (and nec) and since it is a port it's also connected to rinat and now you're back to having +4.


Ah, that's pretty cool. I like the gameplay implications of this.

I also see why you have Sully on this - that seems like an XML cluster only he could sift through. :)

I assume the extent of the "connected to" is within the same colored region?


i'd love if there were no boundaries to the "connections" but i'm not sure how big and complicated the xml might turn out so i'll have to discuss this with sully.

lostatlimbo wrote:
DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:With such a harsh penalty on the Assassins/Clerics the Flying Monkeys & Griffins seem almost useless. No one will want to keep their troops on an Assassin/Cleric village, so bombarding them will be unnecessary. With a negative 2 bonus, I would want my opponent to keep their Assassin/Cleric. Perhaps you could give those another target? Such as Capitals or Nobles?


they're not useless in the context of being able to eliminate the enemy. see above.


Hmmm... perhaps there's an angle I'm missing. I can see some advantage in team play (bombarding your teammate's last troop to avoid the -2 penalty), but beyond that they seem similar to a killer neutral. The penalty of -2 troops and a decay of 5 makes it undesirable to leave any troops there. If my Knight/Warlock is the target, I'm deploying defensively and letting my opponent take a significant hit.

In All Your Bases, I don't assault the 10 neutral on Tech Level 3 unless I'm pretty sure I can finish with the win. I would think the same thing for Clerics/Assassins. I'm building up a good force and cashing in a set before I take a Cleric territory and if I fail to eliminate my opponent's Warlock, bombarding what's left of my Cleric troops would only help me by negating that -2.

I do like the back and forth of the bombardments, but I don't think I'd use the Griffkeys often.


i thought of making it like this to avoid rushes and to make people think twice before going for an elimination as failure in achieving it could cost them dearly. obviously the values are not set in stone so if others think they need changing then i'm not opposed. some form of closed-circuit pre-beta testing would really come in handy :roll:
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