[Abandoned] War of Wizards

[natty dread]

Just bumping this up - I think more discussion is needed...

Click image to enlarge.

[J_Indr]

Natty, could you distinguish light and dark towers more than by their flags? Light towers could use a lighter shading, for example.
Hopefully I will have time for a proper look later.

[natty dread]

That's a bit problematic since there's a bonus that requires an icon for either tower.

[J_Indr]

Surely you could (if it is unclear) then put the both symbols to the legend? If really needed.

Also, the light/dark bonuses - can you get them only if you have the particular wizard, or are they opened to all?

[natty dread]

No I couldn't, that would imply that you would need one of both towers.

Light/dark bonuses are for light/dark wizards.

[isaiah40]

Heirn Tower/Wizard has a very big advantage over Tamar wizard/tower. Heirn can get the shrine and village long before Tamar can get the unicorn/gold bonus. Heirn has to go through 12 neutrals to receive the shrine village bonus. Heirn now has approxiamately 7 men per turn plus the +2 auto on the village while Tamar is getting the minimum of 5. In a couple of more turns Heirn now has Spirit guard and receiving 10 men per turn while Tamar is fighting to get 5. I suggest swapping Mana5 and S06 around. In this way it will give Tamar an opportunity to at least have a fighting chance.

[J_Indr]

No I couldn't, that would imply that you would need one of both towers.

Light/dark bonuses are for light/dark wizards.

I think you need to write it there; it's not absolutely obvious. And, in light of your previous stuff, does it mean that dark wizard gets bonus for an ownership of a light tower + a graveyard?

[natty dread]

Heirn Tower/Wizard has a very big advantage over Tamar wizard/tower. Heirn can get the shrine and village long before Tamar can get the unicorn/gold bonus. Heirn has to go through 12 neutrals to receive the shrine village bonus. Heirn now has approxiamately 7 men per turn plus the +2 auto on the village while Tamar is getting the minimum of 5. In a couple of more turns Heirn now has Spirit guard and receiving 10 men per turn while Tamar is fighting to get 5. I suggest swapping Mana5 and S06 around. In this way it will give Tamar an opportunity to at least have a fighting chance.

Swapping Mana5 away from Tamar is not a really good idea, the Mana fountain after all gives an instant bonus so depriving Tamar of it would do more harm to him than good I think...

What if I move the unicorn from Ta08 to Ta09 so Tamar has fewer neutrals to get to the gold and shrine?

[natty dread]

No I couldn't, that would imply that you would need one of both towers.

Light/dark bonuses are for light/dark wizards.

I think you need to write it there; it's not absolutely obvious. And, in light of your previous stuff, does it mean that dark wizard gets bonus for an ownership of a light tower + a graveyard?

Yes, it does mean that. How is "light bonuses / dark bonuses" not obvious? The name clearly implies they only apply to light/dark wizards... otherwise, there'd be no reason to divide them in light/dark groups and they'd be called just "bonuses".

[J_Indr]

No I couldn't, that would imply that you would need one of both towers.

Light/dark bonuses are for light/dark wizards.

I think you need to write it there; it's not absolutely obvious. And, in light of your previous stuff, does it mean that dark wizard gets bonus for an ownership of a light tower + a graveyard?

Yes, it does mean that. How is "light bonuses / dark bonuses" not obvious? The name clearly implies they only apply to light/dark wizards... otherwise, there'd be no reason to divide them in light/dark groups and they'd be called just "bonuses".

Maybe because they could as well mean that it's enough to hold a tower of that colour?
Or maybe because it's just storyline thing?

[natty dread]

Sorry, but I'm going to wait to hear some more opinions about this. So far no one else has had problems understanding what the Light/dark bonuses refer to, to my knowledge. If people generally agree that it is necessary to clarify this part of the map more then I will make the according changes.

So in other words, your opinion has been noted, but I will wait to hear more feedback on this.

As for the towers, they will likely be redrawn at some point. In fact I believe a lot of the graphics of this map will be changed/improved somewhat after the gameplay is fixed in place.

[J_Indr]

As for the towers, they will likely be redrawn at some point. In fact I believe a lot of the graphics of this map will be changed/improved somewhat after the gameplay is fixed in place.

Then, just as an addition to what I said above, here is how I think towers could be changed:

Since there are different sorts of magic surrounding white and dark tower, I quickly need to see which are which. Unless you'd be willing to make slightly different, i.e. just faintly visible, shading of the territories in a relevant distance around the tower, this needs to be done by the shading of the tower.

You could have a silhouette of a tower or a neutral coloured tower in the legend (even now it seems more brownish than those on the map itself!) and then have lighter and darker shaded towers on the game plan. Or you can show both lighter and darker towers in the legend, separating them with "/" or "OR". Since you use "+" for showing that you need to have both, it should be quite clear that you don't need to have both dark and light tower to trigger the bonus.

Feel free to wait for further opinion. This is what I personally think would improve the map.

[natty dread]

Heirn Tower/Wizard has a very big advantage over Tamar wizard/tower. Heirn can get the shrine and village long before Tamar can get the unicorn/gold bonus. Heirn has to go through 12 neutrals to receive the shrine village bonus. Heirn now has approxiamately 7 men per turn plus the +2 auto on the village while Tamar is getting the minimum of 5. In a couple of more turns Heirn now has Spirit guard and receiving 10 men per turn while Tamar is fighting to get 5. I suggest swapping Mana5 and S06 around. In this way it will give Tamar an opportunity to at least have a fighting chance.

Swapping Mana5 away from Tamar is not a really good idea, the Mana fountain after all gives an instant bonus so depriving Tamar of it would do more harm to him than good I think...

What if I move the unicorn from Ta08 to Ta09 so Tamar has fewer neutrals to get to the gold and shrine?

Isaiah, got any input on this?

[isaiah40]

Um, yea, sorry forgot about this. Anyways, looking at this again, how about moving the shrine at S06 to TA5? Yes Tamar tower will have to go through 2 more neutrals to get the bonus. Not exactly the same as Heirm Tower, but at least Tamar will have a chance. You can then leave the unicorn where it is to help block Heirm a little from getting the second shrine.

[natty dread]

Um, yea, sorry forgot about this. Anyways, looking at this again, how about moving the shrine at S06 to TA5? Yes Tamar tower will have to go through 2 more neutrals to get the bonus. Not exactly the same as Heirm Tower, but at least Tamar will have a chance. You can then leave the unicorn where it is to help block Heirm a little from getting the second shrine.

But the idea sort of is that the wizards have to compete over the same shrine, or go over to the dark side lands for other shrines... that's how it is on the Northern side too, and if I give both wizards their own shrine on the south side, then they have a clear advantage over the northern guys... ugh, this is giving me a headache now.

How about I just rearrange some of the Tamar & Heim regions so that both wizards have equal neutrals to the Gold & Shrine?

[isaiah40]

That may work. Tamar and Heim are the only ones that are grossly unbalanced right now. All the rest are a few neutrals off from each other, so they are fine IMO.

[iancanton]

i agree that heim has a big advantage, not only in the arrangement of the bonus icons, but also because every other tower apart from tamar (whose position is probably inferior, as isaiah has already postulated) and oloch is so far away that heim tower cannot be attacked easily. to remedy heim being hard to reach, is it possible to widen the heim river, move the s06 shrine to s04 and move the s04 boat to s06? also, all towers are 2 steps away from the nearest bonus, except heim, who is only one away. swapping he07 with mana6 is an easy fix.

the other change i'd like to see is for the n04 shrine to move to me06 to provide some protection for merin tower (especially from aris tower, but also from forces coming via the n05 boat) if desired or an alternative bonus to mana2 if combined with deyr village. merin is fairly easily reached from most towers except heim.

ian.

[natty dread]

is it possible to widen the heim river, move the s06 shrine to s04 and move the s04 boat to s06?

It's doable... a bit of a pain in the ass, but doable...

also, all towers are 2 steps away from the nearest bonus, except heim, who is only one away. swapping he07 with mana6 is an easy fix.

Actually, that'd bring the shrine even closer to Heim, and that won't do... I'll just redraw some regions to make the distance 2.

the other change i'd like to see is for the n04 shrine to move to me06 to provide some protection for merin tower (especially from aris tower, but also from forces coming via the n05 boat) if desired or an alternative bonus to mana2 if combined with deyr village. merin is fairly easily reached from most towers except heim.

Sure, that can be done.

[Victor Sullivan]

*yawns and stretches* Oh, shit! I forgot to follow-up on this

I'll be back after your next update, I'm sure. Feel free to bother me via PM. That's generally the best way to get me to post, ha.

-Sully

[iancanton]

also, all towers are 2 steps away from the nearest bonus, except heim, who is only one away. swapping he07 with mana6 is an easy fix.

Actually, that'd bring the shrine even closer to Heim, and that won't do... I'll just redraw some regions to make the distance 2.

trees between mana6 and he02 will do it.

azael is the only other tower that has only one step to the nearest bonus. taking just three regions secures an additional bonus of +3. trees between az02 and mana8 will help to reduce this quick advantage.

ian.

[natty dread]

Sorry I've been lagging on updates with this one... I've been thinking about some possible graphical changes, but haven't been able to just get to work on them...

I'll try to have an update posted as soon as.

[Victor Sullivan]

'Look forward to it

-Sully

[natty dread]

Ok, finally got an update done. There was so much stuff to do, if I forgot anything that I've promised to do, just let me know...

You may also notice the borders were completely redrawn. I tried to go for a bit more organic feel for them, to make them look less artificial, which IMO is often a problem on fictional maps...

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

Made a bit more touch-up to borders, and moved the gold from Az7 to Az9.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

For the fans, here's some original artwork done for the map. You can find all of these on the map in a smaller size...