[Abandoned] - CONQUERSHIP (1v1 map)

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Re: CONQUERSHIP v.1 [29 NOV 2011] You sunk my Conquership!

Postby lostatlimbo on Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:25 am

thenobodies80 wrote:Ok, thanks for your confirmation, in this case we should talk about a thing. ;) :-$


About the map?
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Re: CONQUERSHIP v.1 [29 NOV 2011] You sunk my Conquership!

Postby DiM on Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:41 am

i like the idea but wouldn't it be easier to make 1 map for 1v1 and another for 3-8players?
player limitations are possible and have been done in the past so if a map has merit i think it would be done again.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP v.1 [29 NOV 2011] You sunk my Conquership!

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:21 am

lostatlimbo wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:Ok, thanks for your confirmation, in this case we should talk about a thing. ;) :-$


About the map?


Yes about the map. But we can continue with PMs or Live Chat, it's better. 8-[ ;)
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Re: CONQUERSHIP v.1 [29 NOV 2011] You sunk my Conquership!

Postby zimmah on Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:17 pm

original idea to have 2 player mode and 3-8 player mode
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Re: CONQUERSHIP v.1 [29 NOV 2011] You sunk my Conquership!

Postby macbone on Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:16 pm

I love the idea behind this map and the graphics. Very nice so far, guys!
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011]

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:59 pm

Sully and I went back to the drawing board to make this map exclusive for 1v1 play.

Map Name: CONQUERSHIP
Mapmaker(s): Lostatlimbo & Victor Sullivan
Number of Territories: 34 Ship cells (17 each) start with 15, 160 Open Sea cells (divided between both players and neutrals)
Special Features: Receive a bonus for holding ships and sea cells on your side of the map. Hold at least one ship or lose the game.
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: The first map on CC to be designed exclusively for 1v1 play.

Map Image:
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby DiM on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:10 pm

you need approval to make a 1v1 map:

4. Before posting your map in the drafting room is "highly recommended" to send a PM to Foundry Foreman with a draft of your 1v1 map or, if you don't have a draft, at least a clear explanation of what you want to develop. This is required to make sure that CA's can look at your project before proceeding any further. The CA's will give you a detailed reply as soon as possible. In case of rebuttal they will give you a reason.


plus it was much more interesting as it was before with 2 different gameplays.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:17 pm

DiM wrote:you need approval to make a 1v1 map:

4. Before posting your map in the drafting room is "highly recommended" to send a PM to Foundry Foreman with a draft of your 1v1 map or, if you don't have a draft, at least a clear explanation of what you want to develop. This is required to make sure that CA's can look at your project before proceeding any further. The CA's will give you a detailed reply as soon as possible. In case of rebuttal they will give you a reason.


plus it was much more interesting as it was before with 2 different gameplays.


I requested and received permission to post this update.

I think this gameplay will be very fun and challenging. It offers many potential strategies - both offensive and defensive - and has plenty of features that only 1v1 could accomodate.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby DiM on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:19 pm

ah, ok :)
but you could perhaps develop the other one too.
i really liked the 3-8p perspective it had.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:25 pm

That's a possibility. We'll see how this one goes.

I'm interested to see what you'll come up with for 1v1. All Your Bases would be a good fit, in my opinion.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby DiM on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:29 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:I'm interested to see what you'll come up with for 1v1. All Your Bases would be a good fit, in my opinion.


i've had a 1v1 map done and ready to post for more than 3 weeks now but apparently there's no time to get it reviewed and allowed or something. :evil:
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:37 pm

DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:I'm interested to see what you'll come up with for 1v1. All Your Bases would be a good fit, in my opinion.


i've had a 1v1 map done and ready to post for more than 3 weeks now but apparently there's no time to get it reviewed and allowed or something. :evil:

No time to review??? :? Sure there is!! Just send the pm to nobodies and he'll review it. You'll never know what will happen!!
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby DiM on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:41 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:I'm interested to see what you'll come up with for 1v1. All Your Bases would be a good fit, in my opinion.


i've had a 1v1 map done and ready to post for more than 3 weeks now but apparently there's no time to get it reviewed and allowed or something. :evil:

No time to review??? :? Sure there is!! Just send the pm to nobodies and he'll review it. You'll never know what will happen!!


i've sent thenobodies the first pm on the 5th of december. since then i've been postponed 4 or 5 times. today's the next deadline. i wonder if i'm gonna be told to wait again.

i'm tired of people asking me what Besieged is and why there's no thread. when i made my sig i expected it would be a matter of days before i could release the map.

anyway, this is offtopic.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011]

Postby DiM on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:57 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:Sully and I went back to the drawing board to make this map exclusive for 1v1 play.

Map Name: CONQUERSHIP
Mapmaker(s): Lostatlimbo & Victor Sullivan
Number of Territories: 34 Ship cells (17 each) start with 15, 160 Open Sea cells (divided between both players and neutrals)
Special Features: Receive a bonus for holding ships and sea cells on your side of the map. Hold at least one ship or lose the game.
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: The first map on CC to be designed exclusively for 1v1 play.

Map Image:
show



ok so 1 player starts on the left side with all the ships at 15 troops per terit and the other player gets the same on the other side. and all the sea cells are randomly divided among players.

now, i might be wrong here but according to my math whoever goes first and has statistically accurate dice wins.

first, when you start your turn all your ships will decay from 15 to 14. still you have an over 50% chance of wining bombardments vs the opponent's 15 stacks. so bombarding the crap out of him seems like a good option.

also there are 80 sea cells. if the distribution is statistically accurate you'll get 40 cells on your side which equals to a bonus of +8. add the +5 for having 5 ships and that means you'll have a bonus of +13 drop those troops on your ships to improve your odds in the previous bombardments if you want and you could get close to an above 60% chance of success for each bombardment.
this means that whoever goes first will probably do a whole lot of damage to the opponent on round 1 depriving him of a few ships (or in some cases even eliminating him). factor in the possibility of bombarding the enemy ships from the sea cells on his side and you'll see a first round elimination becomes more and more possible.
also if the setting has unlimited reinforcements you could get anywhere from 40 to 80 troops to reinforce your ships after you've bombarded the bejeezus out of your enemy.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011]

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:08 am

DiM wrote:ok so 1 player starts on the left side with all the ships at 15 troops per terit and the other player gets the same on the other side. and all the sea cells are randomly divided among players.

now, i might be wrong here but according to my math whoever goes first and has statistically accurate dice wins.

first, when you start your turn all your ships will decay from 15 to 14. still you have an over 50% chance of wining bombardments vs the opponent's 15 stacks. so bombarding the crap out of him seems like a good option.

also there are 80 sea cells. if the distribution is statistically accurate you'll get 40 cells on your side which equals to a bonus of +8. add the +5 for having 5 ships and that means you'll have a bonus of +13 drop those troops on your ships to improve your odds in the previous bombardments if you want and you could get close to an above 60% chance of success for each bombardment.
this means that whoever goes first will probably do a whole lot of damage to the opponent on round 1 depriving him of a few ships (or in some cases even eliminating him). factor in the possibility of bombarding the enemy ships from the sea cells on his side and you'll see a first round elimination becomes more and more possible.
also if the setting has unlimited reinforcements you could get anywhere from 40 to 80 troops to reinforce your ships after you've bombarded the bejeezus out of your enemy.


There will be neutral sea cells as well - just not sure how many yet - so it won't be a +13 bonus initially. Maybe +8?

Also, please note that sea cells can only bombard adjacent ship cells - they could not reinforce them regardless of the setting.

To your larger point, I don't know that you could really eliminate your opponent on the first turn. You are more likely to weaken yourself to the point that your opponent can turn around and eliminate you on their first turn. The biggest concern - imo - will be manual deployments.

As this map goes through the gameplay grind, I'm sure there will be lots of solutions for this. I'm certain we can work out a fair drop together. We could make the decay -2 or make each ship cell start with a lower amount or limit the range of bombardments. There are many options.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:27 am

With the change from the original idea to this, what is missing game play wise for the 2 player option. I seem to remember telephones and such like for something.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011]

Postby DiM on Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:21 am

lostatlimbo wrote:Also, please note that sea cells can only bombard adjacent ship cells - they could not reinforce them regardless of the setting.


indeed. i must have misread that bit.
i may be the only one cause english is not my main language but the instructions kinda remind me of "she sells sea shells by the sea shore" and somehow it's hard to read. perhaps use another word instead of cells. :lol:
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby lostatlimbo on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:41 am

koontz1973 wrote:With the change from the original idea to this, what is missing game play wise for the 2 player option. I seem to remember telephones and such like for something.


Those map elements that were only necessary when the gameplays were split.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011]

Postby lostatlimbo on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:41 am

DiM wrote:indeed. i must have misread that bit.
i may be the only one cause english is not my main language but the instructions kinda remind me of "she sells sea shells by the sea shore" and somehow it's hard to read. perhaps use another word instead of cells. :lol:



Haha. Fair enough.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:18 pm

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but if I go first, I can bombard the other players ships from my ships or any sea territ I hold next to there ships. If this is correct, then there is a good chance I can win the game first turn.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby lostatlimbo on Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:58 pm

FYI, I'm just waiting for Sully to return and add in his thoughts before making any changes or suggestions.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:03 pm

And here he is!

Valid points all around, therefore I suggest the following:

I discussed with lostatlimbo previously via PM about a set-up where ship cells of one type of ship could only bombard the ship cells of the same type of ship on the other side, and that each coordinate could bombard the corresponding coordinate on the other side of the map (therefore allowing some sea cells on one side to be able to bombard ship cells on the other side). lostatlimbo, however, disagreed, saying it was too open. Valid point, so we changed it to this. Suppose we do a compromise by adding "bombard zones" where only sea cells with corresponding ship cells may bombard across the divider. That's a poor explanation of it, so I've provided a visual aid to help explain my proposal:
show
Obviously we'd have to make some amendments to the current draft, as the Carriers overlap and I think a white peg or two interfere as well.

Thoughts?

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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:55 pm

I'd be okay with that, but does it sufficiently address the unequal starts concerns? Theoretically, you could still go to town on each ship individually and doesn't the cross-board bombardment just potentially add more troops from which to attack a ship on 1st turn?
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:36 am

With Sullys amendment, it would still be possible for me to bombard ship to ship, right. So with the added sea cells from my side and any sea cell I have by the opposing ship, it has made it easier for me to win first turn. Not harder.

Coming up with a solution, maybe look at Arms Race. That is the only other map that has this style of play and has the rockets on each side. You could easily add something like that to this but in the sense of a navy gun.

So you could add territs like

Armory
lift
powder
shell
aiming

That gives you 5 territs that can be attacked by any ship starting at the armory and working up.
Give big enough neutrals to stop it happening straight away but a good sized bonus for holding all of them.

So a game would go one of two ways. An all out attempt of reaching the last part of the shell or an all out attempt of gaining a foothold on the opposing players sea cells. This then allows you to bombard the ships and win. With the cross board shelling, you could have it as a ship can only bombard its opposite cell. In your current draft, B3 is held by both carriers, so this would be able to bombard each side, taking out the bonus. Moving the ships around so only one or two ship territs correspond would then allow players to hit the ships but not sink them. So red A1 can only hit Green A1 and only if both held a ship.

Having a bonus of +1 per ship that has a territ in is to easy to hold. Have it that you need to hold all the territs for the ship and give a decent bonus depending on the size of ship.

Hope I made myself clear.

EDIT: It might also be nice to be able to remove troops from the ships. Almost as if the are abandoning a sinking ship or disembarking in boats to attack.
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Re: CONQUERSHIP 1v1 Map v.1 [26 DEC 2011] - New 1v1 gameplay

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:01 am

lostatlimbo wrote:I'd be okay with that, but does it sufficiently address the unequal starts concerns?

To an extent, to say the least. They would have to be more strategic with their troop placement (since they wouldn't be able to drop all on one sea cell).


lostatlimbo wrote: Theoretically, you could still go to town on each ship individually and doesn't the cross-board bombardment just potentially add more troops from which to attack a ship on 1st turn?

No, I'd adjust neutrals or starting positions to fix that.

@koontz: I'm not too keen on straying that far away from the original concept, but I understand your concerns. I'll think on this more.

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