Clash of Kings - [14.03.14] - V18.1 - Pg 1&16

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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:01 pm

natty_dread wrote:
DiM wrote:also the main problem with making this smaller is the legend. even if i bring the ships closer and shave of a few pixels from the right side i'll still have the same amount of text in the legend


The middle part of the legend has lots of empty space on the sides though. You can make it narrower.

DiM wrote:what sort of bombardment is that if the ships are all grouped together?


Well I think keeping the image at a compact size should take priority - supersize is only supposed to be granted for maps that can't fit everything in normal size, not for giving the map more "realistic" graphics...


the little space i have in the legend will be filled to the brim in the small map. take a look at the images i posted above and you'll see how much the text needs to be scaled up to be made visible. so regardless how much space i save by cramping the ships together it won't mean anything because i can't make the legend much smaller.

here's a resize of the map to 800*800 (my small) notice how the text in the legend fills everything up?
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/DiM-topia/ClashofKings-L.jpg

now ofcourse i could jam al the ships together but that wouldn't help a bit. in fact it would jut cause the map to look imbalanced with a lot of unused space in the lower part and filled to the brim in the upper part. the way i have it now makes use of space in a very balanced manner.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:59 pm

Well, you could always redraw & rearrange the legend to make it fit in the new image... I'm sure you'd manage.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:05 pm

natty_dread wrote:Well, you could always redraw & rearrange the legend to make it fit in the new image... I'm sure you'd manage.


i can reshape and rearrange the legend all i want, the text still needs to fit and what i take from the width i must add to the height. so instead of a nice rectangular map i'd end up with a rectangular tall map. of all the types of maps, rectangular tall is the worst cause it involves the most scrolling since most displays are wide.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:13 pm

No, what I mean is you have lots of extra graphical stuff in the legend you can scrap to make the legend more compact. Have one box, instead of 3, and cut down on the fancy clip art a bit... You could easily reduce the image size by around 100 pixels both width & height.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:35 pm

natty_dread wrote:No, what I mean is you have lots of extra graphical stuff in the legend you can scrap to make the legend more compact. Have one box, instead of 3, and cut down on the fancy clip art a bit... You could easily reduce the image size by around 100 pixels both width & height.


yeah and i also have some fancy sea and grass and walls.
i could maybe replace all the graphics with 40 circles for terit names and some arrows showing the connections.
could probably fit it all in 200*200 px.
then we'd call it IMAGINATION map cause you'd have the chance of imagining whatever theme and setting you feel like :lol:

if first nations americas got approved with over 40% dead space then i surely won't start erasing my fancy title and legend to save a few pixels.
800*800 for small map is the bare minimum i need in order to preserve theme aspect and legibility.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:10 pm

This one looks good enough for a sticky.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:29 pm

DiM wrote:yeah and i also have some fancy sea and grass and walls.
i could maybe replace all the graphics with 40 circles for terit names and some arrows showing the connections.
could probably fit it all in 200*200 px.
then we'd call it IMAGINATION map cause you'd have the chance of imagining whatever theme and setting you feel like :lol:


No, the grass and walls would stay. You wouldn't have to remove any other graphics, just make the title more compact. I don't see why you act like I'm suggesting something other than what I'm actually suggesting.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:35 pm

natty_dread wrote:
DiM wrote:yeah and i also have some fancy sea and grass and walls.
i could maybe replace all the graphics with 40 circles for terit names and some arrows showing the connections.
could probably fit it all in 200*200 px.
then we'd call it IMAGINATION map cause you'd have the chance of imagining whatever theme and setting you feel like :lol:


No, the grass and walls would stay. You wouldn't have to remove any other graphics, just make the title more compact. I don't see why you act like I'm suggesting something other than what I'm actually suggesting.



i was making a point. i'm not gonna cut the fancy frames and make a squishy title and cramp all the ships and troops together just to save 50 pixels on either side when a map like first nations americas has 40% of his surface with nothing but dead space. that indian image is as big as the fortress on this map. if tisha was allowed to do that, then i can surely have my title and frames ;)
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:45 pm

DiM wrote:i was making a point. i'm not gonna cut the fancy frames and make a squishy title and cramp all the ships and troops together just to save 50 pixels on either side when a map like first nations americas has 40% of his surface with nothing but dead space. that indian image is as big as the fortress on this map. if tisha was allowed to do that, then i can surely have my title and frames ;)


Listen... this is nothing personal against you. But when I was making the Antarctica map, I asked if I could get 40 extra pixels of height for the map, above the standard 800 pixel limit. The answer was that I could do it without, all I had to do was fudge up the geography of the map and move the northernmost island south a bit.

And now I see the standards for supersize map are pretty much "ask and you shall receive". It used to be that supersize was only granted when the map could not be done in regular size. There had to be a gameplay justification for the increased size, ie. it wasn't granted just to make the graphics fancy.

Even Tisha's map, it has empty space and Indian images only because of the shape of the land mass. It doesn't have supersize just to add extra graphics to the map, but the extra graphics are added to the empty spaces between land areas.


Anyway, more to the point... this map is one I think can well be done with smaller size, even keeping the fancy graphical elements of the map. What if you make the legend narrower & higher, then reduce the width & height of the image, and then arrange all the territories in the space you have? That way you'll have a more compact image and you don't have to sacrifice your graphics for it.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:51 pm

I made this mock-up to show what I mean. It has 100 pixels less of both dimensions.

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:53 pm

Here's the same in 80% size, which is a 760 * 776:

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby lostatlimbo on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:05 am

zimmah wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:Could the 3rd Artillery bombard the Supply Caravan back?

Seems like if you were trying to take a castle by siege, you would want to cut off their supply too.

I'm not sure if that would improve gameplay or not, but I'm a stickler for story. :)


realism-wise it'd make a whole lot more sense for an attacker to attack a supply caravan then vice versa but gameplay wise i'm not so sure.



Would it really hurt to have a two way bombardment there? I don't think it changes that much.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby lostatlimbo on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:10 am

natty_dread wrote:
DiM wrote:i was making a point. i'm not gonna cut the fancy frames and make a squishy title and cramp all the ships and troops together just to save 50 pixels on either side when a map like first nations americas has 40% of his surface with nothing but dead space. that indian image is as big as the fortress on this map. if tisha was allowed to do that, then i can surely have my title and frames ;)


Listen... this is nothing personal against you. But when I was making the Antarctica map, I asked if I could get 40 extra pixels of height for the map, above the standard 800 pixel limit. The answer was that I could do it without, all I had to do was fudge up the geography of the map and move the northernmost island south a bit.

And now I see the standards for supersize map are pretty much "ask and you shall receive". It used to be that supersize was only granted when the map could not be done in regular size. There had to be a gameplay justification for the increased size, ie. it wasn't granted just to make the graphics fancy.

Even Tisha's map, it has empty space and Indian images only because of the shape of the land mass. It doesn't have supersize just to add extra graphics to the map, but the extra graphics are added to the empty spaces between land areas.


Anyway, more to the point... this map is one I think can well be done with smaller size, even keeping the fancy graphical elements of the map. What if you make the legend narrower & higher, then reduce the width & height of the image, and then arrange all the territories in the space you have? That way you'll have a more compact image and you don't have to sacrifice your graphics for it.


There's plenty of former restrictions that have been loosened in the spirit of making more involved maps. There's no reason to restrict something solely on previous guidelines. DiM's small seems like a perfectly reasonable size to me and everything is clear. Thats all that matters, imo.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby natty dread on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:13 am

lostatlimbo wrote:DiM's small seems like a perfectly reasonable size to me and everything is clear. Thats all that matters, imo.


It's not really. A map that is unnecessarily large is simply inconvenient for the players. There's more scrolling, etc. So from an ergonomics point of view, map images should only be as big as necessary to portray the gameplay clearly.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby BadgerJelly on Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:15 am

natty_dread wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:DiM's small seems like a perfectly reasonable size to me and everything is clear. Thats all that matters, imo.


It's not really. A map that is unnecessarily large is simply inconvenient for the players. There's more scrolling, etc. So from an ergonomics point of view, map images should only be as big as necessary to portray the gameplay clearly.


I dont have to scroll to look at it?
Is it being clear to every player LESS important?
Funny here you want maps to look perfect BUT when they do you want to shrink them so they dont? :?
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:42 pm

natty_dread wrote:Even Tisha's map, it has empty space and Indian images only because of the shape of the land mass. It doesn't have supersize just to add extra graphics to the map, but the extra graphics are added to the empty spaces between land areas.


actually that whole unused space could have been used better by changing the orientation of the continents. something similar to what you did in eurasia.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:49 pm

natty_dread wrote:Here's the same in 80% size, which is a 760 * 776:

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1227/cokmocks.jpg



yeah and my small is 800*800 so for just 40 pixels you cut a portion of my castle and made the text more squishy. great.
well i bet i can make any image smaller by cropping pieces of the map.
hey, look at classic. who needs that title with the pointless lines and all. cut it and move it some place else and make it in a smaller font.
then take all the continents and bring them closer, the oceans don't need to be that big, it's a waste of space. do that and you'll shrink the classic by at least 25%.
as you said:
natty_dread wrote:map images should only be as big as necessary to portray the gameplay clearly.


right?
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:51 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:Would it really hurt to have a two way bombardment there? I don't think it changes that much.


i think it would give the attacker too much power.
perhaps i could remove the bombardment on the ammo depot and make a 2 way bombardment with the caravan. it would add more realism while maintaining a ballance.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby natty dread on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:02 pm

Oh come on, you're just being purposefully obtuse now.

You don't have to crop the castle, you don't have to make the text squishy. You know this. I had to do it because I don't have access to your layered files and I only made a quick mock-up to show how to save some space.

This is starting to be a common theme in this thread... I make a suggestion and you exaggerate it way out of proportions and then act like I suggest something totally ridiculous so you can easily dismiss it. If you don't want to consider my ideas, fine, but don't claim they are something impossible or ridiculous.

Classic isn't comparable. Classic is already a very nice, compact size and shrinking it would serve no purpose. This map however has about the same number of territories as Classic, yet it is way larger, and the only reason it is that large is that you have to fit in so much graphics. I mean seriously, your current map image is about the same size as Eurasia, although Eurasia has 130 territories and this has what, a third of that?
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:06 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:There's plenty of former restrictions that have been loosened in the spirit of making more involved maps. There's no reason to restrict something solely on previous guidelines. DiM's small seems like a perfectly reasonable size to me and everything is clear. Thats all that matters, imo.


in my opinion if a map uses its space in a balanced manner and fills it nicely then it's ok to supersize.

this map doesn't have empty areas, i have either terits, text or artwork going from edge to edge.
the terits aren't needlessly large, the text is just above the legibility minimum and the artwork isn't extensive.

true i could cramp all the ships together, squish all the troops against the castle walls, cut a piece of the castle like natty did, reduce the size of the streets and houses, get rid of the fancy title and legend and replace it with a simple box and i could probably save 200px on either side for the large image. but that would look nothing like a siege and would have zero feeling to it.

small at 800*800 with a large at 1000*1000 are reasonable dimensions within which i can keep the feel of the siege, the legibility of the text, the clarity of the gameplay and visual theme.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:09 pm

natty_dread wrote:Classic isn't comparable. Classic is already a very nice, compact size and shrinking it would serve no purpose. This map however has about the same number of territories as Classic, yet it is way larger, and the only reason it is that large is that you have to fit in so much graphics.


actually you're wrong. cut away the huge legend and i can make this the same size as classic.
so it's not about the artwork it's about the long explanations in the legend.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby BadgerJelly on Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:28 pm

I think the artwork is worth the extra space anyway!

I'd rather play a VERY nice looking map like this than a lot of maps here.

I can understand why it looks the way it does because the more realistic looking maps are more difficult to plan out. I am having the saem issue with my map Polderand (Barely made a start yet!). Some regions are connected on it and some are not so you have to spread things out more, use one way borders and work the map around the image and not an image around a map.

Anyway I do like having info on the map and for me I find maps here very cluttered looking compared to what I am used too. I am guessing there used to be a set size limit? If there was then I guess there isnt anymore?

If it fits the screen its the right size. With even bigger maps I personally dont mind scrolling a tiny bit if the maps worth it.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:31 pm

DiM wrote:small at 800*800 with a large at 1000*1000 are reasonable dimensions within which i can keep the feel of the siege, the legibility of the text, the clarity of the gameplay and visual theme.

+1

After discussing DiM's supersize application with thenobodies80, we have come to the conclusion that the map can be cut down on the sides by moving the ships to the left a tad, and moving the decorative legend areas so they are touching. This is all we ask, and if you can post the small and large versions, we can then get the map moving.

Now we all can agree that a map is more fun to play on if everything is clear, readable, and understandable. Now, I see and understand both sides here, as there has been some valid points brought up. Now I know that compromises can be made here, and I'm sure DiM will look at every way and make those compromises. This is what all mapmakers should be doing, not saying out right or by beating around the bush by saying something along the lines of "This is my map and I'm going to do it my way", or "This is the right and only way to do this" attitude. So please let's just end this on move on.
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Re: Clash of Kings [01.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V4 - p1&3

Postby DiM on Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:10 pm

V5:
*reduced large to 1000*1000 and small to 800*800
*moved around a few terit names
*fiddled with the legend text size and artwork.
*removed bombardment of the ammo depot and added a 2-way bombardment with the caravan.

keep in mind the small is just a straight resize. i normally start work on the small after i have the gameplay badge. this is just to get an idea on how it would look.

large:
Click image to enlarge.
image


small:
Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Clash of Kings [08.Jan.12] - 1v1 map - V5 - p1&6

Postby lostatlimbo on Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:23 pm

Supply Ship 2 text is cut off a bit.

I like the bombardment switch for gameplay as well as theme, since it is a little easier to get to the ammo from the front gate and would have been hard to get to the caravan otherwise. Good call.
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