[Abandoned] Mississippi Magnolia St

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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby army of nobunaga on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:45 pm

Unless Im missing something that gulf coast bonus is going to be too easy to grab and hold... I would make it a +1 and make the appachian foothills a little easier to hold.

As much as I love the madigascar map, a lot of times its predicated on that super easy bonus to grab and hold at the top.. its a pitfall in a lot of maps.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby vaughn03 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:44 pm

Hi - I'm Vic's 'Production Artist' on his Mississippi Map. Thanks for all your input. I'm happy to hear/try suggestions... I'm really just a Production Artist and not a Designer although I work with them in real life... I'm also trying to 'realize' Vic's vision of his beloved state... Up to this point I've been pretty busy piecing it together but now it's in a much more complete state so I'm coming on the forum at Vic's urging...

I agree with happy2seeyou concerns but this is the best I've got so far... I've tried putting 'backgrounds' behind the type but this map is already so busy... I might try and put them on parchment or old paper..? The colors - I see Vic's rational and I'm open to trying suggestions - I don't think colors currently look too bad... Starting to grow on me maybe...

Tough to make fonts bigger/more readable AND shrink the map. I'm curious as well as to why the supersize seems to be off the table? Am I correct in saying that there are 2 sizes of each map and wouldn't it be better if there was a LARGE size and a smallsize. In other words why not 1024 and something like 640? Am I misunderstanding the application of these maps? Also as Vic has stated Mississippi ain't Kansas. It's a Vertical State...

I like Nobunga's suggestion of making the Boats more dynamic we can think about that and understand his not understanding that they were part of gameplay which again goes up to size - I will see what I can figure out.

Curious what CC's attitude is to ALTERING game play? How much can we change? Can we introduce elements that are not in any other map?
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:10 pm

vaughn03, thanks for making an appearance here. It is finally good to meet the artist behind this great looking map. Let me try to answer some of your points.

Colours - the ones you have on the map blend too much with the colours of the army numbers on the site. Each numbers colour must be clearly visible. Here is a copy of them if you do not already have them. There are a number of ways to make them visible but the two most common ways are to have background colours that do not clash with any of them or if you do, then you can put a white circle under where they will go.
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Fonts - This will be one hell of a sticking point. Trying to find a font that suits the map and is readable, also one that everyone likes will become a huge headache (sit back and tack some aspirin ;) ). What I would suggest you do here is to find a normal font that is pleasant enough but not so heavy on the artistic merits. You have a huge amount of space down the left and right of te map so all of the text will fit. It is up to you to move the text or even try to cut some of it out if you can.

Size - Why you have not been given permission to go larger, is not mine but I believe that you have a map that does not warrant it. You have managed to get the size down to 840 (height) by 840 (width). This alone proves that you have a map that can be made smaller. Losing another 40 pixels of the width should be easy enough. If it becomes a problem along the way, I am sure something will get done. But please, you need to get the map down to 840 by 800 for now.

Gameplay - As long as you are in the foundry, and even after sometimes, game play can and will change. What you have now may not resemble what you have at the end. Be prepared to make changes. ;) As for what you can add, if it can be done with the current xml, you can do it, but I am sure you will find at least one map with it on.

Can you please get VicFontaine to update the opening post with your user name. As this is your artwork, it belongs to you.

Hope this answers your questions.

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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby VicFontaine on Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:38 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Can you please get VicFontaine to update the opening post with your user name. As this is your artwork, it belongs to you.

Hope this answers your questions.

koontz


I will, of course, add his name. He had, to this point, requested NOT to be named. Shame shame, Koontz, thinking I was stealing his thunder ;) I jest.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby vaughn03 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:05 pm

I understand color regarding troop numbers - easy fix. Colors of the territories and map itself are more subjective/artistic and I welcome suggestions from anyone out there.

To me the fonts - w/exception of Universities ARE pretty readable - but as with the colors I welcome artistic suggestions...

I understand what you want me to do with the size and don't really have a problem with it - 40 pixels is nothing - breaks poor Vic's heart though... But I STILL don't understand the REASONING behind it... (I like to know reasons...)

Sure gameplay is moving - mostly curious. Have my own map I'm thinking about... I work in advertising - I'm use to lots of revisions...

I'll get with Vic and get you a new edit soon...

Thank you.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby VicFontaine on Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:55 pm

koontz1973 wrote:vaughn03, thanks for making an appearance here. It is finally good to meet the artist behind this great looking map.


He just does whatever I say. I keep him locked in my basement and only feed and quench his thirst when he designs well. You all should get a Vaughn. Handy when you need them for mapmaking. :lol:

koontz1973 wrote:Let me try to answer some of your points. Colours - the ones you have on the map blend too much with the colours of the army numbers on the site. Each numbers colour must be clearly visible. Here is a copy of them if you do not already have them. There are a number of ways to make them visible but the two most common ways are to have background colours that do not clash with any of them or if you do, then you can put a white circle under where they will go.
Image


koontz1973 wrote:Fonts - This will be one hell of a sticking point. Trying to find a font that suits the map and is readable, also one that everyone likes will become a huge headache (sit back and tack some aspirin ;) ). What I would suggest you do here is to find a normal font that is pleasant enough but not so heavy on the artistic merits. You have a huge amount of space down the left and right of te map so all of the text will fit. It is up to you to move the text or even try to cut some of it out if you can.


Keep in mind the fonts are carefully chosen: each font is distinct and indicates a particular bonus. Put another way: if all the fonts were the same, the gameplay would be wildly confusing. Each font represents a new bonus. This is critical in our decision to 1) Simplify and 2) Clarify.

To change the fonts to some uniformly bland font because it is, supposedly, easier to read (and that's not true, though of course, every font can be tweaked a bit) would destroy the point of making the bonuses, which are legion, obvious. Please consider this carefully. 8-)

koontz1973 wrote:Size - Why you have not been given permission to go larger,


Again I point out we were given permission to go larger. Then the rules were changed on us mid-stream. UNCOOL. This reduces confidence in any mapmaker that what the "Man" says will be, actually, what the Man allows. I urge "the board," (Isaiah, Koonts, The Nobodies, and whoever other Bodies there are) to allow for this exception for no other reason than we were told, by those in charge, that we were allowed to have a larger version. If rules are to be changed, they should be changed from that point of decision and not changed retroactively, which was done to us.

This isn't just a point of order. It's also affecting how I design the gameplay, keeping me from adding in a few things I was considering based on the recommendations of players over the last 11 pages of this thread.

koontz1973 wrote:is not mine but I believe that you have a map that does not warrant it. You have managed to get the size down to 840 (height) by 840 (width). This alone proves that you have a map that can be made smaller. Losing another 40 pixels of the width should be easy enough. If it becomes a problem along the way, I am sure something will get done. But please, you need to get the map down to 840 by 800 for now.


We could make it luxembourg-size. Wouldn't make it necessary to have it small. My point is: what are the reasons for it to be small? Because everything will still fit? My point is: yes, everything still fits, but everything becomes more jumbled, which hurts the widest possible appeal. As Vaughn says, my heart is broken. I'm in counseling for it. I am so sad, boo hoo hoo hoo. :P

koontz1973 wrote:Gameplay - As long as you are in the foundry, and even after sometimes, game play can and will change. What you have now may not resemble what you have at the end. Be prepared to make changes. ;) As for what you can add, if it can be done with the current xml, you can do it, but I am sure you will find at least one map with it on. koontz


As always, Koontz, thanks for your comments. Please don't take my firm stances on things as evidence that I'm a jerk. Conviction isn't the same as meanness. I know what I believe regarding this map because I'm taking it from the viewpoint of a noob to the game (hmm...lemmme see here...oh...this map looks cool. A little complicated, but not hard to understand—nice design to it) to the most XP'd players who know the complex maps are, really, all the same with just a different face.

That's all. Thanks again.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:31 pm

Guys, a generic font is not what I said, you can use whatever font you want, but it has to be readable. You current fonts are not that readable and you will have people saying that they cannot read them. Another rule of thumb is to limit the fonts to three + title. And when it comes to doing the small map, the fonts will be smaller still.

Here is what I would suggest you do... You text layer, turn of and put a more generic font on for now in one size only. You can then colour each of the fonts for each type of bonus. This will then become easier when you get into the game play part of the foundry for everyone to easily understand the map. The last thing you want is players coming into the thread and not understand the map. The previous page army of nobunaga made a mistake with the maps GP because of the text. That alone cannot happen.

Size wise - above my pay grade. You can send a PM to thenobodies and ask why.

Vic, not a problem, I know you are not being a jerk and I understand abut the first map babies. Mine is still in the beta stage and hated every single criticism. Now let vaughn out of your basement so he can see the sun.:)
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby VicFontaine on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:20 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Guys, a generic font is not what I said, you can use whatever font you want, but it has to be readable. You current fonts are not that readable and you will have people saying that they cannot read them. Another rule of thumb is to limit the fonts to three + title. And when it comes to doing the small map, the fonts will be smaller still.

Here is what I would suggest you do... You text layer, turn of and put a more generic font on for now in one size only. You can then colour each of the fonts for each type of bonus. This will then become easier when you get into the game play part of the foundry for everyone to easily understand the map. The last thing you want is players coming into the thread and not understand the map. The previous page army of nobunaga made a mistake with the maps GP because of the text. That alone cannot happen.

Size wise - above my pay grade. You can send a PM to thenobodies and ask why.

Vic, not a problem, I know you are not being a jerk and I understand abut the first map babies. Mine is still in the beta stage and hated every single criticism. Now let vaughn out of your basement so he can see the sun.:)


I don't hate every criticism. Just the bad suggestions. :) As I read his comments, and PM's to me, he (nobunaga) misunderstood because he didn't read it. It was clear. I think he said so after he read it.

We've taken 90% of the suggestions and implemented them.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:51 pm

That is a problem, if someone cannot understand the map by looking at it, it will not get the GP stamp. Please remember, not everyone can read English, even some English cannot read English. :roll:
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby VicFontaine on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:26 am

koontz1973 wrote:That is a problem, if someone cannot understand the map by looking at it, it will not get the GP stamp. Please remember, not everyone can read English, even some English cannot read English. :roll:


LOL so true.

He didn't actually really LOOK at the map, as he told me about it. The arrows up and down, etc. His biggest problem, HE said, was the proximity of the boats to the legend.

MAYBE this is cleared up by moving the legend. It's MORE easily cleared up by a larger map.

Round and round we go. You say: it can all fit on a smaller map. We say: doing so makes it less clear.

My point seems to be proven by player comments. ](*,) \:D/

I don't think I have any hope of winning this, even though all logical argument seems to be on my side. Sounds like we're married.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:48 am

Already married so I know how it feels. :P

Lets see the new draft at the correct size, then we can see where to go from there. ;)

Last thing that has been mentioned before, your images, some are not free to use. How are you solving this problem or have you already solved it?
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby macbone on Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:07 am

Yeah, some of the fonts are still hard to read, like the names of the universities. Maybe go for a thicker font, or larger letters?

This is true for some of the small cities, too. I can make them out, but the medium-sized cities are much easier to read.

For an objective win, all the Cultural Treasures plus Jackson sounds right if the CTs start as neutrals. Southern Miss' ability to assault the other two universities makes a universities + Jackson objective a bit too easy to hold, unless they start out with a sizable number of neutral troops on each one.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby VicFontaine on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:42 am

koontz1973 wrote:Already married so I know how it feels. :P

Lets see the new draft at the correct size, then we can see where to go from there. ;)

Last thing that has been mentioned before, your images, some are not free to use. How are you solving this problem or have you already solved it?


Regarding images: the only ones in question are: Elvis and the universities. We're getting a new Elvis (even though it wasn't copyrighted, though I have no way to "prove" this...what constitutes proof anyway?). The universities we're checking on. I'm not sure they refuse to allow people to use those images or if they're unique in that way.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:59 am

Where did you find that Elvis? Give me a link to that image and if it says free to use then you can use it. As for the unis, they probably will not allow them as they will sell that logo on things. Better to come up with a generic symbol for them.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby vaughn03 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:44 am

OK.

This is size guy - 'thenobodies'? (I gotta know...) But I'm not real worried about the size here. I have a big monitor so I ALWAYS prefer a bigger map - which is why I want to talk to the MAP BOSS... I agree with Vic that it's also better for this map because of so many elements but I can take this to 840 x800 no problem. It's Vic's worry.

I've always been concerned about number of fonts from a design perspective. Putting the map together I think it almost helps me - to keep things separate but we are past that now. I will take a look and try to eliminate some. Thank you for suggestion - will try that as well. TOTALLY agree about Universities being unreadable. Not sure we will keep Universities due to copyright issues. Vic? I could just use a generic symbol and then type out their names, yes? That might make the map cleaner anyways...

Elvis - I don't even know... I'll have to go back and look. Can we BUY USAGE? Some of this stuff is really cheap, I've got $20... Have other options here - really no big deal so long as I'm allowed to use an Elvis image. I can create if necessary - take me longer...

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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby VicFontaine on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:15 am

vaughn03 wrote:OK. This is size guy - 'thenobodies'? (I gotta know...) But I'm not real worried about the size here. I have a big monitor so I ALWAYS prefer a bigger map - which is why I want to talk to the MAP BOSS... I agree with Vic...


You heard it here first, folks. May it be forever immortalized. :)

vaughn03 wrote:...that it's also better for this map because of so many elements but I can take this to 840 x800 no problem. It's Vic's worry.
:roll: :-^

vaughn03 wrote:I've always been concerned about number of fonts from a design perspective. Putting the map together I think it almost helps me - to keep things separate but we are past that now.


What "almost helps"? The number of fonts, or eliminating them?

vaughn03 wrote:I will take a look and try to eliminate some. Thank you for suggestion - will try that as well. TOTALLY agree about Universities being unreadable.


vaughn03 wrote:Not sure we will keep Universities due to copyright issues. Vic? I could just use a generic symbol and then type out their names, yes? That might make the map cleaner anyways...


The universities stay, even with no image. V's correct there: we can make it work.

Huge part of the state. Huge part of gameplay. We will find an image, however. For instance, Ole Miss used to be "Ole Miss Rebels." They can't copyright the image of a rebel, so we could use that. Mississippi State BULLDOGS. They don't own images of bulldogs. We can use one we like that we find. Golden Eagles = USM. Again, we could find something to use, even if it's just the letters, in black and gold, "USM" (they use black and gold uniforms for their sports teams).

vaughn03 wrote:Elvis - I don't even know... I'll have to go back and look. Can we BUY USAGE? Some of this stuff is really cheap, I've got $20... Have other options here - really no big deal so long as I'm allowed to use an Elvis image. I can create if necessary - take me longer...


vaughn03 wrote:From the basement...
go back to your dungeon. Just kidding! :)
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby vaughn03 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:15 pm

It helped me to have the different fonts when I was putting it together but NOW I will eliminate some and I think it will be better. It will look better for sure.

Like they actually teach anything in a Mississippi College...

And please slow down with the emoticons... Put the coffee down...
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby vaughn03 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:17 pm

I DON"T like the idea of 'some' Bulldog for your little college... I'm going to have a standard image and write the name of the college.

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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:50 pm

Concerning the size, I have talked with thenobodies80 about it and he mentioned that it could be cut down in size some more (width wise).

Concerning the fonts, it is a good idea to use no more than 2-3 different fonts as it makes it harder to read. One font for the title, one for the legend, and one for the territories. The font size in the legend can be increased as you have plenty if room!! The increase in size will make the legend easy to read, and clear.

Concerning the images, if you purchase the rights to use them commercially, then that would be okay. I believe that thenobodies80 would need to see proof that you purchased commercial rights. In this way tnb80 can pass them on to lackattack so he has prove of permission to use the images.

Concerning the Universities, I believe that you can use the names just not their logos.

Anyways I'll comment more later! Keep up the good work!!
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby vaughn03 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:42 pm

See how big Isiahh's map is Vic? Mega. You should have called it Mega Mississippi...
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby VicFontaine on Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:42 pm

vaughn03 wrote:See how big Isiahh's map is Vic? Mega. You should have called it Mega Mississippi...


Where is his map?

Onward: V and Vic are discussion the latest update which, in keeping with previous promises, should be ready for display tomorrow.

It's awesome. Now you need 3-D goggles to view it, but we have actual yankee and rebel soldiers who jump out at you whenever you roll a 6.

;) --> a smiley for you, V.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby koontz1973 on Sat May 19, 2012 7:27 am

Any word on when the next update is coming for this one?
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby army of nobunaga on Sat May 19, 2012 7:01 pm

I just do not feel like Mississippi needs this much love.

When is someone going to do an Arkansas map? Thats something I would commission actually.

In regards to this map, still looking good, cant wait to see the updates.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby VicFontaine on Sun May 20, 2012 3:02 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:I just do not feel like Mississippi needs this much love.

When is someone going to do an Arkansas map? Thats something I would commission actually.

In regards to this map, still looking good, cant wait to see the updates.


I don't know. I lost a lot of drive for this map with the anal map-size requirements. Plus, 2 1/2 weeks ago, I got the flu, then had to quickly move 10 miles across town, which I'm still doing.

I've sent updates to Vaughn and he's working on them, so I'll post when he's finished.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [April 22, '12] - Page

Postby army of nobunaga on Sun May 20, 2012 9:08 pm

With the size of the average monitor now-a-days, I hope that the map size thing can be resolved with common sense. gl man and sorry about the bad rl luck
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