[Abandoned] Mississippi Magnolia St

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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:15 pm

nolefan5311 wrote: Honestly, other than the Natchez Trace Pkwy, I would suggest getting rid of the interstate bonuses completely. They aren't specific to Mississippi and I think they just add to the "clutter" and confusion of the bonus system. And Jackson appears to be included in all of them.


i completely agree with this.
i like keeping the natchez trace and removing all other interstate bonuses.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby VicFontaine on Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:16 pm

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote: Honestly, other than the Natchez Trace Pkwy, I would suggest getting rid of the interstate bonuses completely. They aren't specific to Mississippi and I think they just add to the "clutter" and confusion of the bonus system. And Jackson appears to be included in all of them.


i completely agree with this.
i like keeping the natchez trace and removing all other interstate bonuses.


Who asked you. Luzer. ;) lol.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby VicFontaine on Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:30 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:VIc,

I have a couple of suggestions on some changes before I can begin running the bonus spreadsheets because I'm a little confused on what territories are part of what bonuses: cities like Cleveland, Clarksdale, Canton, Yazoo City, Brookhaven...what bonuses are these a part of? They are obviously not medium sized cities or Capitals, but the font on those cities is different than the normal territories. It needs to be clarified a little.


Done

nolefan5311 wrote:Also, I suggest, for the interstate bonuses, to use the interstate symbol for ALL regions that are included in those bonuses. Take I20 for instance...I'm not sure if Vicksburg, Jackson, and Meridian are all included in that bonus (because I20 runs through all of those cities). Does I55 include Canton, Jackson, Brookhaven, and Hammond, LA? I can't even see the I59 route at all...is this notated anywhere? Honestly, other than the Natchez Trace Pkwy, I would suggest getting rid of the interstate bonuses completely. They aren't specific to Mississippi and I think they just add to the "clutter" and confusion of the bonus system. And Jackson appears to be included in all of them. I'm not saying you HAVE to get rid of them, but as is, it's very confusing.


You raise good points. Here's my rejoinder:
1) "Use the interstate symbol for all regions including in the bonus." If we do that, we lose other bonuses that are important for the gameplay I've designed. The interstate symbol, running through the cities, is clear. Perhaps writing in the legend: "Cities are part of an interstate bonus if they intersect an interstate" would make it crystal.
2) "Does I55 include"...if it intersects with 55, it includes it. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
3) "I can't even see the 59 route"...yes, because we're stupid and never included it. :lol: Will be corrected on the next update.
4) "I would suggest getting rid of the interstate bonuses completely"... the interstates really are important to Mississippi. We don't have many paved roads...and only got interstates under the Katrina evacuation plans of 2006. So I'd really like to keep those. I think they'll make gameplay more enjoyable. We can always cut it out later but if we can keep them in for now, it'd be nice to have unless absolutely necessary. Also, regarding the "clutter," that would go away if we would actually be granted the supersized status we originally requested and for which we were originally told, "Yes, if you change X and Y," which we did. Then got reneged on. :evil: Sorry, I can't drop this. When the same complaint of "confusion" and "clutter" pop up, and that's the very reason I asked for supersized for to begin with (1) a worthy map (2) with lots to it, rather than just being dumb and big (3) should be granted supsersized, no?

nolefan5311 wrote:The Steamboats I think should border the Fishing Boats, instead of just attacking them. This would facilitate movement across the map.


"Border"? I don't really know what you mean. If you mean, "Move them to the Gulf" that doesn't work because of...wait for it...small space. (See above under #4.) Only ONE steamboat assaults the fishing boats. When it comes to gameplay, this will make it impossible to hole-up in the Gulf and will mean the Gulf player will have two fronts with which to contend. An easy bonus (the Gulf ships) to get, a hard one to keep. Same thing with the Gulf Coast bonus: easy to get, hard to keep, because it can be bombarded by the Gulf ships. Not to mention: steamboats were used on the river (the power of going against the stream). Moreover, we still have them on the river here for the silly tourists.

nolefan5311 wrote:Also, the legend uses the word "Steamships". For consistency, this needs to be changed to Steamboats.
Yep. I blame George Bush.

nolefan5311 wrote:The Appalachian Foothills...the only way to attack in and out of this region is Tupelo > Kosciusko? I know it's only a +1, but it's 8 regions. Was this intentional?


Wrong, but good eye. Tupelo AND Corinth (the red city), which needs to be moved (just noticed this now) so as to make clear that both Tupelo and Corinth are access points, i.e., there are two spots to defend the Foothills.

nolefan5311 wrote:If you add in the cultural treasure, it becomes a +2.


Sort of correct. It's a +1 for the region of the Foothills. Then it's an auto +1 for Tupelo. Then it's an auto +1 for the CT (cultural treasure). Thus, you have 2 spots to defend, only get a +1, but, if you have the cities and the CT as well (which aren't necessary to collect the foothills bonus), you'd have two spots to defend, get +3 total for controlling those regions, but in games with chained or adjacent reinforcements, you can't just overload the checkpoints like you could in unlimited. Even if you played unlimited, there are two check points and would only get, max, +3 bonus and at least a +3 for tert count. That's not much when you have to split it two ways. It works.

nolefan5311 wrote:Similarly, if I'm reading the impassables correctly, the only way into Red Clay Hills continent is via Canton. Kosciusko, Jackson, and Meridian? Seems awfully easy to control those bonuses with the checkpoints.


You're forgetting Southern Miss: it directly assaults both Ole Miss and MSU. You're also forgetting Memphis, which is not placed correctly (again, George Bush). Memphis needs to be moved south, maybe enlarged a bit, in order to "bleed" into two zones: The Delta and Red Clay Hills. Thus, there are 6 regions a player would have as "chokepoints" to control the bonus firmly. It's only worth +5, with the autodeploys, more. But still, very hard to control.

Thanks for taking a serious look at it and offering real suggestions.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:22 pm

VicFontaine wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:VIc,

I have a couple of suggestions on some changes before I can begin running the bonus spreadsheets because I'm a little confused on what territories are part of what bonuses: cities like Cleveland, Clarksdale, Canton, Yazoo City, Brookhaven...what bonuses are these a part of? They are obviously not medium sized cities or Capitals, but the font on those cities is different than the normal territories. It needs to be clarified a little.


Done


Look forward to seeing the update.

VicFontaine wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:Also, I suggest, for the interstate bonuses, to use the interstate symbol for ALL regions that are included in those bonuses. Take I20 for instance...I'm not sure if Vicksburg, Jackson, and Meridian are all included in that bonus (because I20 runs through all of those cities). Does I55 include Canton, Jackson, Brookhaven, and Hammond, LA? I can't even see the I59 route at all...is this notated anywhere? Honestly, other than the Natchez Trace Pkwy, I would suggest getting rid of the interstate bonuses completely. They aren't specific to Mississippi and I think they just add to the "clutter" and confusion of the bonus system. And Jackson appears to be included in all of them. I'm not saying you HAVE to get rid of them, but as is, it's very confusing.


You raise good points. Here's my rejoinder:
1) "Use the interstate symbol for all regions including in the bonus." If we do that, we lose other bonuses that are important for the gameplay I've designed. The interstate symbol, running through the cities, is clear. Perhaps writing in the legend: "Cities are part of an interstate bonus if they intersect an interstate" would make it crystal.

4) "I would suggest getting rid of the interstate bonuses completely"... the interstates really are important to Mississippi. We don't have many paved roads...and only got interstates under the Katrina evacuation plans of 2006. So I'd really like to keep those. I think they'll make gameplay more enjoyable. We can always cut it out later but if we can keep them in for now, it'd be nice to have unless absolutely necessary. Also, regarding the "clutter," that would go away if we would actually be granted the supersized status we originally requested and for which we were originally told, "Yes, if you change X and Y," which we did. Then got reneged on. :evil: Sorry, I can't drop this. When the same complaint of "confusion" and "clutter" pop up, and that's the very reason I asked for supersized for to begin with (1) a worthy map (2) with lots to it, rather than just being dumb and big (3) should be granted supsersized, no?


1) That does clear it up quite a bit.

4) I'm not saying they definitely need to go, but you already have a ton of interesting bonus ideas and special gameplay (CT's, Steamboat bonuses, Universities) specific to Mississippi. I don't think the map is really cluttered as is, or that the interstate bonus makes it cluttered. I was more referring to the bonus system being a little too complex...too much going on. As far as the supersize stamped is concerned, I have no control over that. You will need to run that by the blue names.

VicFontaine wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:The Steamboats I think should border the Fishing Boats, instead of just attacking them. This would facilitate movement across the map.


"Border"? I don't really know what you mean. If you mean, "Move them to the Gulf" that doesn't work because of...wait for it...small space. (See above under #4.) Only ONE steamboat assaults the fishing boats. When it comes to gameplay, this will make it impossible to hole-up in the Gulf and will mean the Gulf player will have two fronts with which to contend. An easy bonus (the Gulf ships) to get, a hard one to keep. Same thing with the Gulf Coast bonus: easy to get, hard to keep, because it can be bombarded by the Gulf ships. Not to mention: steamboats were used on the river (the power of going against the stream). Moreover, we still have them on the river here for the silly tourists.


No, I didn't mean move them to the Gulf. As is, the legend indicates "Steamships assault all fishing boats". I do now see the dotted blue line indicating that only Natchez attacks the steamboats, so the wording in the legend probably needs to be changed. And when I meant "border", I meant make the fishing boats also able to attack the steamboats, instead of a one way attack from Natchez. Just an idea.

VicFontaine wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:The Appalachian Foothills...the only way to attack in and out of this region is Tupelo > Kosciusko? I know it's only a +1, but it's 8 regions. Was this intentional?


Wrong, but good eye. Tupelo AND Corinth (the red city), which needs to be moved (just noticed this now) so as to make clear that both Tupelo and Corinth are access points, i.e., there are two spots to defend the Foothills.


nolefan5311 wrote:If you add in the cultural treasure, it becomes a +2.


VicFontaine wrote:Sort of correct. It's a +1 for the region of the Foothills. Then it's an auto +1 for Tupelo. Then it's an auto +1 for the CT (cultural treasure). Thus, you have 2 spots to defend, only get a +1, but, if you have the cities and the CT as well (which aren't necessary to collect the foothills bonus), you'd have two spots to defend, get +3 total for controlling those regions, but in games with chained or adjacent reinforcements, you can't just overload the checkpoints like you could in unlimited. Even if you played unlimited, there are two check points and would only get, max, +3 bonus and at least a +3 for tert count. That's not much when you have to split it two ways. It works.


Ok, I was confused. I just realized I read the bonuses wrong. I meant Black Prairies, not Appalachian foothills.

And the issue I'm having is that a person can entirely control both a +1 (Appalachian) and +4 (Black Prairies) and another +1 for the CT (legend states each CT gives an additional +1, not an additional +1 autodeploy, for holding the regional bonus, and from what I can tell can CT's can only be attacked by the region it's located in) by holding only Tupelo (or Kosciusko) and Mississippi State. And because only Southern Miss can attack MSU (Ole Miss only bombards) there's only two regions that attack in. This is going to need to be changed to get the stamp.

Running the spreadsheet, it's 8 regions (13 if the cities need to be held to be part of the bonus - Corinth, Tupelo, Starkville, Columbus, Macon) to hold both Appalachian and Black Prairies (+6) with a chance at a +7 with the CT, but only two regions to defend (Tupelo and Mississippi State) and two regions that can attack in (Kosciusko and Southern Miss). It states the bonus value should only be 2.25 (4.08 if its 13 terts to hold and the cities are included). You're going to either need to open up some connections (make all CT's border each other, add some more road connections, remove the black impassable in some places) or reduce the bonus by a large amount (in order to make it work, Black Prairies might need to be lowered to a +1).

VicFontaine wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:Similarly, if I'm reading the impassables correctly, the only way into Red Clay Hills continent is via Canton. Kosciusko, Jackson, and Meridian? Seems awfully easy to control those bonuses with the checkpoints.


You're forgetting Southern Miss: it directly assaults both Ole Miss and MSU. You're also forgetting Memphis, which is not placed correctly (again, George Bush). Memphis needs to be moved south, maybe enlarged a bit, in order to "bleed" into two zones: The Delta and Red Clay Hills. Thus, there are 6 regions a player would have as "chokepoints" to control the bonus firmly. It's only worth +5, with the autodeploys, more. But still, very hard to control.

Thanks for taking a serious look at it and offering real suggestions.


That's my job :D. Let me know if anything I've said is unclear.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby VicFontaine on Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:04 pm

Everything you last posted is 1) clear and 2) helpful 3) even if I still disagree on the bonuses/complexity.

Very helpful. We'll get to it. Thanks, Brees!
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby vaughn03 on Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:43 pm

I can change 'Steamboats assault all fishing boats' to 'Natchez assaults all fishing boats'?

You guys lose me on everything else... Need to be told what to do and then no problem...

Vic tells me you are going to do the code for us - Nolefan5311. That's great but I was hoping maybe you could walk me thru it some? I'd like to learn. I've played around with html a little - just enough to be dangerous I'm afraid but I'd like to learn more. I'm pretty good at PhotoShop - people actually pay me to do it... Would certainly trade knowledge or skills.

Also have my own map that I want to do at some point...
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby VicFontaine on Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:18 pm

vaughn03 wrote:I can change 'Steamboats assault all fishing boats' to 'Natchez assaults all fishing boats'?


CORRECT.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby VicFontaine on Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:21 am

OK, here's the latest written update before we post the image tonight or tomorrow:

1) We've added an objective win: "Control all CT's and Jackson for one turn to win."
2) We've made all the steamboat wheels/army markers WHITE to match their river ports' wheels.
3) We've made "All CT's assault one another" after Nole's strong suggestion to eliminate too many bonuses easily controlled. This will make things much harder.
4) We've moved Memphis further south overlapping 55 and Red Clay/Delta to indicate that Red Clay and Delta are accessible to one another via Memphis.
5) We've changed the legend wording so "steamship" is now "steamboat" for clarity.
6) Adjacent to "The Natchez" steamboat, we've added the following: ("The Natchez" assaults all Gulf Boats)
7) Corinth, a red city in the upper right of the board, has been moved so the city name "Corinth" is over the red city as it should be.
8 ) We've added a red city, plus explanation, in the legend. Can't believe we didn't see this was left out. Good eye Willy Billy Pig.
9) We've added in a symbol for I-59.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [May 26, '12] - Page 12

Postby nolefan5311 on Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:21 pm

All sounds really good. There still may be some recommended changes in gameplay (mainly accessibility and suggested bonus values) but those are all a step in the right direction. Looking forward to seeing the changes.
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [June 7, '12] - Page 14

Postby VicFontaine on Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:54 pm

Image
Map Name: Mississippi Magnolia
Mapmaker(s): Vicfontaine, vaughn03 appearing as The Voice of Reason, aka, the Production Artist.
Number of Territories: 78
Special Features: multi-level bonuses (multiple regions, autodeploys, additional bonuses within regions, etc.), culture-specific to Mississippi
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: There are no unique Deep South (USA) maps and this one provides that as well as detail into some Mississippi history; gameplay is easy but multi-dimensional with bonuses, attacks, defensive positions, etc.

UPDATE AS OF June 7, 2012. Please make this supersized. You have no real quality objections not to and had already told us you would. We continue to get complaints about how "crowded" this looks. We've continued to say, "Make it supersize and it won't be crowded." ](*,) ](*,)

800 size:
Click image to enlarge.
image


1000 size:
Click image to enlarge.
image


WHAT HAS CHANGED:
1) Legend has been clarified
2) Slight alteration of map and tert locations for clarity
3) **OBJECTIVE WIN HAS BEEN ADDED
4) More awesomeness included


(Older Version:)
(update #5)
Click image to enlarge.
image

Click image to enlarge.
image

(update #4)
Click image to enlarge.
image

(update #3)
Click image to enlarge.
image

(update #2)
Click image to enlarge.
image


ORIGINALS (hand-drawn):
Click image to enlarge.
image

Click image to enlarge.
image


— Terts separated by thin black lines (the highways of MS), thick red lines (MS interstates), and the white line (the historic Natchez Trace Parkway). Attacks are made over impassables through cities. Thus, cities sitting on I-55 connect their adjoining terts, etc.

— Many cultural icons scattered in approximately their actual geographical areas; these are accessed via small-towns (where the culture really is anyway) indicated by the "red cities."

— Steamboats, a historical feature of the Mighty Mississippi river (and MS state), as well as Gulf Fishing Boats (a major part of our state). River cities that autodeploy (along with other "blue cities").

— Universities (Ole Miss, Mississippi State [MSU], University of Southern Mississippi [USM] are accessed via their adjoining cities (so: Oxford gets to Ole Miss, Starkville gets to MSU, and Hattiesburg gets to USM).

Multiple bonus features; many angles of attack and defense. This is a strategist's DREAM map:
1) hard to contain and be contained
2) hard to win (objective: hold all CT's and Jackson and Memphis for 1 turn to win), especially on no spoils (my preference in games)
3) having to think several turns ahead and anticipate the enemies movement

http://s1154.photobucket.com/albums/p537/vicfontaine1/?action=view&current=MagnoliaMap.jpg
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [June 7, '12] - Page 14

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:53 pm

looks good...

a few of my thoughts;

1. the legend says
Image
i think this needs clarifying...
one thing is it says something about small cities in the medium city section. this confuses me. probably because i'm from mississippi.
2. another thing is it says;
Image
well, it's easy to see that the closest city to miss. state is columbus. but in real life miss state is in starkville. ( everyone knows this )
Image
3. this may be clearer if worded differently
Image
maybe something like; "steamships assault adjacent steamships N-S
( it's also unclear what the steamship ports assault
4. also do the small cities only assault the CT'S and nothing else?

so, those are a few things i see. actually, i think the whole legend and bonus explanation needs to be reread and reworded. although i think i get it for the most part, it seems to be a little hard to understand. and some questions can be raised.

i'm not trying to be difficult, i think there will be others that feel the same as i do.

other than that. a very nice looking map, and it seems to be shaping up nicely.

:D
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [June 7, '12] - Page 14

Postby VicFontaine on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:03 pm

You know, this would be much easier to clarify (regarding the clogged sections) with a supersized map.

Or we can just cut the size of the map down to have another Luxembourg. :)

The other things do need correcting as you pointed out and gave great pictures for us to see. Thanks for doing that work.

I'll see if I can rewrite the legend and post another update over the next week or so that answers most/all of your objections, instead of doing so here. How's that?
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [June 7, '12] - Page 14

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:31 pm

Universities.
Why does one of the universities assault the other two when they can only bombard each other? Why can the other two not attack southern miss at all?
Would it not make sense (and easier to understand) to have all three connected through assaults or bombardments. Or maybe, remove all of the attacks and give an additional deployable bonus for holding all three.

Steamships.
I am assuming that the white wheel icon is for the steamships and the blue one is the port for each ship. If this is correct then which port connects to which ship? Which port is for Belle of the Bend?
The sentence of Stamships attack each other north and south is not needed at all as you have the attack arrows on the map itself.
Fishing boats, can these only be attacked by the steamships or are they steamboats?

Cultural treasures.
You use the abbreviation CT a lot in the legend. Please use the full wording so as to not cause confusion. You have in the legend small cities assault cultural treasures, does this mean all CTs can be assaulted by all small cities or small cities can assault CT in same bonus area.

Am I correct in saying that if I hold Wolf R, and I want to attack Leaf R, I have to go through Hattiesberg?
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [June 7, '12] - Page 14

Postby vaughn03 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:40 am

Production Team is poised and ready for direction... Will have time today - 6/10 - and tomorrow...
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Re: Mississippi Magnolia State Map - [June 7, '12] - Page 14

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:53 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Issues that I see off the top of my head:

  • There is not a blue wheel that assaults the Belle of the Bend. Is it Memphis? I think you need to put a blue symbol in the legend also showing that blue and white wheels attack each other
  • Adding in the wording of the legend under Capitols, "assaults all adjacent regions and adjacent regions along roadways" or something like that.
  • I still don't see an I-59 marker. And again, I have to suggest to get rid of the road bonuses outside of the Natchez Trace completely. Like I said previously, nothing about them is unique to Mississippi and the only serve to add an unnecessary complication.
  • Universities "assaulted by nearest city". This is not clear enough because as Williams pointed out, whats geographically closer is not necessarily shown that way on the map. Have you thought about making the universities their own regions? The legend has to be perfectly clear and it appears you're overestimating most people's knowledge of Mississippi
  • Similarly, why don't you make the Cultural Treasures their own regions as well?
  • Is the Natchez the only territory that assaults fishing boats? If so, that will need to be changed as I can hold the fishing boat bonus while only needing to hold Natchez as the bottleneck. And it doesn't make a ton of sense that the only regions that can assault them is one of the Steamboats
  • "Steamboat" and "Steamship" are both being used. They all need to be changed to one word for consistency. I see "Steamship", "Steam Ship", and "Steamboats". Also, I see "Fishingboats" and "Fishing Boats".
  • There are still some things that remain unclear that's keeping me from running the bonus spreadsheets...for instance, is Clarksville and Cleveland part of the Delta bonus? Is Canton not part of either bonus? Is Columbus, Starkville, and Macon part of the Black Prairie bonus? What about Tupelo? It's just not clear to me.
  • I see potential issues arising with the army markers on the capitals and blue steamboats. I'm not sure how this can really be fixed, maybe you do vaughn?

I honestly expect a little reluctance on some of these changes, but I don't think the supersize is going to happen, so you'll have to work with what you're able to work with. There's a little much going on and the legend isn't clear enough.
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