[Abandoned] Paris : Métropolitain

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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v5][2012-08-22]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:35 pm

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Here is your first of what will be many.

Good luck in the main foundry.

koontz
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v5][2012-08-22]

Postby BisdeCapri on Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:35 am

Great Great Great !!!
:)
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v5][2012-08-22]

Postby x-raider on Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:17 am

koontz1973 wrote:Image
Here is your first of what will be many.

Good luck in the main foundry.

koontz

=D>
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v5][2012-08-22]

Postby Qyu on Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:20 am

So

First, an update, with 2 less stations (MIR & BRS), and having more place once we'll add the line number under the station name

Click image to enlarge.
image



If i'm right, it's time now for the gameplay.


The idea is :
. Start :
Each Porte (the surround territories, prefixed by a lower-case P) are starting position, shared between players. There are 24 Portes, so ideal for every number of players (except 7 : 7x3 + 3 neutrals)
Each Gare, railstation (the territories prefixed by a lower-case G : gLZ, gND, gCH, gLY & gMB) started with 6 neutrals.
All other territories start with 2 neutrals.

. Bonus
Metro line offer a bonus of 7 or 6 for the entire line, or 4 or 3 for at least half of the line (doesn't matter the owned territs are contiguous or not)
Portes offers partials bonus : 3 for 7, 5 for 11, 7 for 15, 9 for 19 & 15 for all. It means in 2 or 3 playes, the players also started with respectively a 5 or 3 bonus

. Objective
There is also a winning objective. Holding the 5 railstations for one turn give the victory.
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby iancanton on Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:16 am


do u have permission from the ratp to use the station names on a map of the paris métro, or is the ratp map free for us to use?

Qyu wrote:We colored each station, depending of which line go through them.

there are 14 lines, so the colours of some look very similar to those of others. the little coloured boxes under each station name which show the line numbers are an excellent addition to make the map playable for the colour-blind. my favourite is the method used for the ELY station, with a white background for the station name.

remove the +3 for 7 portes bonus because player 1 will always have the advantage of starting with this bonus in 2-player and 3-player games.

the hold half line bonus is ambiguous. change it to, for example, hold 9 stations on same line.

i like the rail station bonus a lot because it gives an incentive to cross the river and hold the middle instead of constantly targetting the periphery. try increasing the bonus values for holding rail stations.

ian. :)
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby Qyu on Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:01 am

iancanton wrote:

do u have permission from the ratp to use the station names on a map of the paris métro, or is the ratp map free for us to use?


excellent question, and actually, RATP released all the data the last july 31st this year : map shape, colors, logos, etc... (even the air quality of each station). The goal is to let third party devellopers to create tool for customers of Paris underground. Only the schedule is not free to use.
Here, we use the same colors, but not the shapes or the logo.



iancanton wrote:
Qyu wrote:We colored each station, depending of which line go through them.

there are 14 lines, so the colours of some look very similar to those of others. the little coloured boxes under each station name which show the line numbers are an excellent addition to make the map playable for the colour-blind. my favourite is the method used for the ELY station, with a white background for the station name.


Excellent, it's also our prefered :)


iancanton wrote:remove the +3 for 7 portes bonus because player 1 will always have the advantage of starting with this bonus in 2-player and 3-player games.

the hold half line bonus is ambiguous. change it to, for example, hold 9 stations on same line.

i like the rail station bonus a lot because it gives an incentive to cross the river and hold the middle instead of constantly targetting the periphery. try increasing the bonus values for holding rail stations.


For the +3 for 7 portes, ok. But with 2 players, we will also have the same problem for 11 portes. There are 24 portes, so 12 for each. We may put the first bonus at 13 : +5, and keep the next bonuses.

About the hold half line, the problem is each line doesn't have the same amount of stations :
line 9 : 14
line 6, 7 : 13
line 1, 2, 4, 12 : 12
line 3, 10 : 11
line 8, 13 : 10
line 5 : 9
line 14 : 7
line 11 : 6
So, the threshold should be different for each group : 7 for the first, 5 for the second.


For the Rail station bonus, once we thought about having them as an objective, we also thought the holding bonus wasn't more apposite. It's still in the picture, as we prefer finish the gameplay before rethink the legend presentation. At least, we may have an autodeploy bonus on them.
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby iancanton on Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:10 pm

Qyu wrote:
iancanton wrote:do u have permission from the ratp to use the station names on a map of the paris métro, or is the ratp map free for us to use?
excellent question, and actually, RATP released all the data the last july 31st this year : map shape, colors, logos, etc... (even the air quality of each station). The goal is to let third party devellopers to create tool for customers of Paris underground.

that is very good news!

Qyu wrote:For the +3 for 7 portes, ok. But with 2 players, we will also have the same problem for 11 portes. There are 24 portes, so 12 for each. We may put the first bonus at 13 : +5, and keep the next bonuses.

that is a logical move.

Qyu wrote:About the hold half line, the problem is each line doesn't have the same amount of stations :
line 9 : 14
line 6, 7 : 13
line 1, 2, 4, 12 : 12
line 3, 10 : 11
line 8, 13 : 10
line 5 : 9
line 14 : 7
line 11 : 6
So, the threshold should be different for each group : 7 for the first, 5 for the second.

a different threshold for each group is good. holding a complete line is much more than twice as difficult than holding a half-line, therefore the bonus for a complete line ought to more than twice the bonus for a half-line: does 3 times sound suitable?

Qyu wrote:For the Rail station bonus, once we thought about having them as an objective, we also thought the holding bonus wasn't more apposite. It's still in the picture, as we prefer finish the gameplay before rethink the legend presentation. At least, we may have an autodeploy bonus on them.

auto-deploy is nice. reduce the neutrals too, perhaps to 3 starting neutral troops each.

at the moment, it's possible that many games will have players attacking round the periphery only (because they like to attack other players and not attack neutrals), ignoring the city centre. all of the changes above will help to bring some play into the city centre.

ian. :)
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby Qyu on Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:56 am

We imagine another path for the territ

Look at CCD territ
Click image to enlarge.
image

We estimate this more readable, and more clean. Also, for the few stations with only one line, we can put the color square on the same line than the name, and so, save some place.

Agree for reduce the starting amount of army for Rail Stations to 3. In fact, we also thought about reduce the starting amount for single line stations to only one : EIF, ALM, AN, SOR, ND, VGR, FXF, CAD, RLN & CHE

About the bonus, we used the Map Bonus Calculator and it gives us bigger bonus than we thought :
line 6 : 16
line 9 : 15
line 1,7,8 : 14
line 2,4 : 13
line 12 : 12
line 3,10 : 11
line 5 : 10
line 13,14 : 9
line 11 : 8
we have 2 groups :
13 and above : 1,2,4,6,7,8,9, for a bonus of 14, and 5 territs for an half bonus of 5. Each of those line have between 10 and 14 territs, so, that mean two players may hold an half bonus at the same time
12 and lower : 3,5,10,11,12,13,14, for a bonus of 11, and 4 territs for an half bonus of 4. Same comment as above : two players may hold an half bonus at the same time for most of them, except for the line 12 where we could have 3 players for the half (unless we delete VGR station)
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:57 am

I like the idea of the CCD territ more than the way you have MDL. But two things, that white is very bright so a softer grey may look nicer. Also, the line number in black on the dark green is hard to read. Find a lighter colour for the darker line numbers maybe.
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby rishaed on Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:10 am

I was looking at this map and what i first came up with is that the black, while i understand for contrast on the rail lines, and draws the eye but also aesthetically looks reeaally jagged to the nice background. Unfortunately the only suggestion that i can come up with is perhaps using a transition (maybe a darker shade of what you have in the background) and pop the rail line tones a few shades darker as well. But if it doesn't work thats ok. The jagged black just really disturbs me right now.
aage wrote: Maybe you're right, but since we receive no handlebars from the mod I think we should get some ourselves.

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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby iancanton on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:45 am

Qyu wrote:In fact, we also thought about reduce the starting amount for single line stations to only one : EIF, ALM, AN, SOR, ND, VGR, FXF, CAD, RLN & CHE

this is certainly possible, to encourage expansion.

Qyu wrote:we have 2 groups :
13 and above : 1,2,4,6,7,8,9, for a bonus of 14, and 5 territs for an half bonus of 5. Each of those line have between 10 and 14 territs, so, that mean two players may hold an half bonus at the same time
12 and lower : 3,5,10,11,12,13,14, for a bonus of 11, and 4 territs for an half bonus of 4. Same comment as above : two players may hold an half bonus at the same time for most of them, except for the line 12 where we could have 3 players for the half (unless we delete VGR station)

the full bonuses look much better! at +5 for 5 and +4 for 4, the half bonuses give too much reward for too little aggression. in a multiplayer game, it's easy to capture 4 stations on a line and u can share a line amicably with an opponent to avoid conflict, with both players holding a half bonus, so the city centre will remain largely empty (except for line 11). for the half bonuses, perhaps u can consider +6 for 7 stations (long lines) and +4 for 5 stations (short lines), so that some lines can be shared and some cannot be shared?

i dislike the black background. it looks menacing, like the eye of a monster. however, we can keep it temporarily while we discuss gameplay because the diagram is clear.

ian. :)
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby Qyu on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:50 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


we change all the stations, and add the line number.
The legend is modified according to the last discussions

what is not in the legend :
Players start at Porte territories (24 territories)
all territories start with 2 neutrals, except the Rail Stations (3 neutrals), and the territs with only one line (1 neutral)

iancanton wrote:the full bonuses look much better! at +5 for 5 and +4 for 4, the half bonuses give too much reward for too little aggression. in a multiplayer game, it's easy to capture 4 stations on a line and u can share a line amicably with an opponent to avoid conflict, with both players holding a half bonus, so the city centre will remain largely empty (except for line 11). for the half bonuses, perhaps u can consider +6 for 7 stations (long lines) and +4 for 5 stations (short lines), so that some lines can be shared and some cannot be shared?


fair enough


That's for the gameplay



About the graphic


iancanton wrote:i dislike the black background. it looks menacing, like the eye of a monster. however, we can keep it temporarily while we discuss gameplay because the diagram is clear.


i understand, but it's the best, imho, for keep enough contrast for the railroad. i guess that's the same reason why rail europe and rail usa have a dark bagkground.

koontz1973 wrote:I like the idea of the CCD territ more than the way you have MDL. But two things, that white is very bright so a softer grey may look nicer. Also, the line number in black on the dark green is hard to read. Find a lighter colour for the darker line numbers maybe.

your dark green, it's the 9 line or the 12 line ? i guess the 12
although, the 11 & 14 may be a bit difficult. We test on gCH a white color font. I think it's better

about the white, we test a darker white at ALM and ELY, and another at gLZ and VIL


We still have to work about the railroad, put them with more precision, and correct some size distortions
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby BisdeCapri on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:30 am

This is by far the best map i've ever seen.

:)
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v6][2012-08-29]

Postby iancanton on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:56 pm

Qyu wrote:Players start at Porte territories (24 territories)

this works if use no start positions at all, so that all 24 portes are distributed randomly and, in 1v1 games, there will be 8 neutral portes. do not code the 24 portes as start positions because, if u do, then player 1 in a 1v1 game will start with 12 portes and deploy 4 troops, but player 2 will probably have fewer than 12 and therefore deploy only 3 troops.

Qyu wrote:all territories start with 2 neutrals, except the Rail Stations (3 neutrals), and the territs with only one line (1 neutral)

this looks good to me.

we have reached a stage in gameplay analysis where i'm confident that we do not need to ask for any stations to be added or removed, or for connections to be changed. this means the map is close to a gameplay stamp and only possible small changes (if any) in bonuses are being considered. u can progress with graphics improvements now because slightly bigger or smaller bonuses will not affect graphics.

ian. :)
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby ManBungalow on Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:04 am

What software are you using for the graphics ?
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby BisdeCapri on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:36 am

Photoshop and Gimp
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:29 pm

I'll leave the gamplay comments to those gurus, but I did want to mention I like the black and gray aesthetic you've got going, especially the city skyline. The only part that kind of lacks is the blackhole behind the gameboard---in this area, I am not sure a black ink blot is really the best way to go.

Keep up the good work.


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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby lazette on Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:32 pm

i'm not an expert on gameplay, so I let them talk and will try it as soon as it is out as a beta. Quite exciting to play on the metro map as a parisian.:)

This is a great idea.
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby Qyu on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:49 am

Here height suggestions about the black shape behind the playground :

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:04 am

How is this your first map Qyu? This is outstanding work. Personally, I like the last one the best, but the drawn river looks a little out of place in it.
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby Qyu on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:16 am

Maybe we could erase the drawn river in this version, or color the one on the satellite view. The fact is we move a little some stations : Eiffel and Trocadero to the west, and Victor Hugo and Etoile to the North, so we bent the river at the same time.
We also prefer this one, but some railroads become unreadable, especially darker one (11 & 14). We may solve this issue by change the color.
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:32 am

Qyu wrote:Maybe we could erase the drawn river in this version, or color the one on the satellite view. The fact is we move a little some stations : Eiffel and Trocadero to the west, and Victor Hugo and Etoile to the North, so we bent the river at the same time.
We also prefer this one, but some railroads become unreadable, especially darker one (11 & 14). We may solve this issue by change the color.


I think removing the drawn one and giving the actual river a sort of glow would look great.

And I agree, changing the darker rail lines is probably for the best. #2 and #12 are a little hard to make out against the background.
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby BisdeCapri on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:32 am

Image

We've removed the river.

We've also put a black glow on yellow and blue lines for a better contrast and understanding.

If you like it, we can do the same for every lines
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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:58 pm

I've added the above image to the first post, remember to keep your first post updated, it's easier for people to look at it and maybe leave a comment or two, than go through the whole thread to find out the latest version. ;)

Btw i like the map graphics, not a fan of the rail maps, but on the whole if i look at the map I find it nice.
It would be nice if everything was a bit larger, considering that this is the large version I'm a bit worried the small one will result too much cramped.
if you're willing to do the map larger, I can discuss with the guys if maybe we can allow some more pixels.

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Re: Paris : Métropolitain [v8][2012-09-21]

Postby Qyu on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:33 am

what if this one is the small size map ?
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