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[Abandoned] War of the Roses

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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:31 am

It seems like 1/2 the players like this sort of style graphics, at least as for having it as a change from all the other maps that all look like maps on paper... So it's ok, if your not partial to this style, for one can not please everyone...

Yes, this game is a little more complex then the standard ones that seem to keep making the strong - stronger and the weak - weaker... Here, it's sort of vise versa - for it is to help establish a balance battle for the throne.

Churches do give a negative deploy - the reasons for this is that they are the gateway to the throne. I do not wish players to try to stockpile or horde them until they absolutely need to. Then when they do it'll be more of a struggle to hold onto them and the throne.

Yes they do work with the land bonuses - all spaces do, even ships.. So if you have 10 lands and 2 of them are churches - you'll get +2 per area for the lands for a total of 20 units - but then -2 for each church of a total negative of 4, making your over all Bonus only 16 units instead of 20.

I know the Quantity of units seem high, but it will be high evenly across the board - so to illustrate both major blood bath battles, and the randomness of a few good men.

The ships are neutral to start. No they are not auto deploy. What makes them special is their connections to the other ships and harbors. Using them will allow you to travel across the map much faster then trucking through the lands. They also open up a multitude of attack angles onto each other and harbor towns. Because of the ships, London for example has 10 different access points that they can be attacked from.

Ty, for visiting and for hoping the best... I wish you happy gaming...

Oh, though the concept and idea to insure a struggle and blood bath for the throne will remain in this game, aspects on Qty of Bonuses and penalties most likely will change and be tweeked once on the game play stamp - and will dedicate more of my time to that facet.

One Idea that I'm tossing around is to have the first player that set up the game to start as the King of England, and as such have a different victory goal then the other Lords (Players) whom all want to capture his throne. So this way not only are the Lords fighting with each other for the chance to become King, but the King itself will be smarter then a neutral player and will be fighting to keep hold of his throne. Two of the reasons I'm thinking of making this change in the Game play stamp stage is because I read on another thread that players can have different victory conditions, and because the game does not offer neutral auto deploy so neutral players can never get stronger.

I was thinking from the other suggestion about adding:
Elisabeth Woodville
Margaret Beaufort
Anne Neville
To the game for their historical rules in this war...
Well, All players in this game should be acting the Rules of all the Lords and Ladies of that time...
So, the player themselves may adopt these personas, for it is the players that are the Lords and Ladies, not an area on the map.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:09 pm

This is coming along good. I like cairns suggestion and yours about having the Lords, Ladies and King fight it out. Suggestion, since we will have 12 player games in the future, can you work this out so that it will be ready for 12 player games? You can have 12 Lords/Ladies/King as starting positions and each one have their own winning condition which overlap each other in some areas. This should work out really good. Anyways since you have everything need to be considered a working draft, I'm going to sticky this for now. :D
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:21 pm

Since I've made all the Graphic changes requested of me - and many of them I made multiple times changing them around due to opposing opinions and poor clarity in explanations of why/or what is needed to be done...

Guess I'll play around a little more with the Game Play aspect - even though I'm not on that Stamp yet - This system is Crazy and a little Dumb... I understand that it did help in increasing the Quality of the maps on this site, which is a good thing, but the system over all needs work (or in the vary least a clearer check point guidelines for the stages. For most of the work that was been asked of me so far, seems to be a Graphic Stamp stage issue and not a draft Stamp stage issue.. And as far as I can see, I've passed the Draft point a long time ago, yet see no progress...)

GAME PLAY - New Idea
Player #1 Starts with London
Victory Condition:
Maintain control of London and have control over 11 different shields (not matching)

All Other Players:
Would still like them to start as Random If possible else:
Player 2 starts Douglas
Player 3 starts Carlsbrooke
Player 4 starts Richmond
Player 5 starts Compton
Player 6 starts Arundel
Player 7 starts Chillingham
Player 8 starts Ogmore

Their victory condition is to control London for one full turn.
To access London they must control 4 Churches.

Before I go any further - I need to know can the other positions be random or if I have multiple victory conditions, I need to actually assign these spots?

Another question is if I have to assign them, can I assign them with different Qty of starting locations.. Example Player one starts with London, but Player 2 starts with Douglas and Beaumarls...

Or even Player one starts with London and the other players get random land dealt out to them from 27 shield locations on the board .. ?
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:29 pm

isaiah - ok...

I'll assign 12 of the 27 shields as starting positions...
That should not be difficult at all...

What Lord Name a player wishes to be - is all subjective, so I'll leave that up to the actual players to role play on their own...

But they will all be considered to be a Lord or Lady (or King Henry) who want to control and maintain the throne of England.

King Henry is the only one that needs a different victory condition - since the rest are targeting his one city of London (which they can not even touch unless they gain the support of the churches) this will overlap all the players struggles for the Throne. And to make it balanced for King Henry - Not only is his Capitol secured through the churches, I'll give London a Larger Auto Deploy to allow King Henry a fair fight against the other 11 players that are all after this throne....

(And actually I think it would be pretty cool to play King Henry with 11 other players targeting against me, but yet they must fight each other just to get to me.)

1 versus 11 sounds like fun to me...

Should have a new update with in the next 24 hours stating the new set-ups and rules
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:31 pm

These are the Lords and Ladies I think I'll have in the game... Though there where many others....
If any History buffs think others would be better, I'm willing to listen...

Also the red circles on the map indicate starting points...
So I'll be slowly connecting a Lord or Lady to a starting point...

Most of them freely roamed the lands so really they all could start pretty much anywhere...

If you have any suggestions or comments please let me know...
I selected these locations as starting points for their distance from other players as well as either having a Church or a ship in between them and another player... I'll make churches and Ships a little harder to capture to insure that no player could be wiped out before they even get a move.

Henry VI -------------------------------- starts in London
Richard Neville Earl of Warwick - Start in Calais
Richard Duke of York -------------- Start in Sandal
Margaret of Anjou ------------------ Start in Compton
Edward of Westminster ------------ Start in Chillingham
Edward of York ----------------------- Start in Helmsley
Richard III ------------------------------ Starts in Wessle
Henry Percy Earl of Northumberland - Starts in Douglas
John de la Pole 1st Earl of Lincoln ---- Starts in Newcastle
Elisabeth Woodville ------------------------- Starts in Arundel
Margaret Beaufort ------------------------- Starts in Cockermouth
Lady Anne Neville -------------------------- Starts in Warwick

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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:17 pm

Here is the last Update making this a 12 player map....

With 11 players fighting each other to take over the 1 player (King)'s city of London, While the King needs to gain national support by controlling 1 city of each type of shield plus London.. (12 Cities total for King to win)

Just Noticed I do not have the Parlement rules listed... So I still need to find a way to squeeze that in.... Lost a lot of room in the Legend because people wanted the actual Lords and Ladies names posted....

Key Features....
All players start with only one city with 15 troops in it....
London is the only city with Auto-Deploy of 10 units a turn for support for the King...
Players need to control 3 Churches in order to attack London.
Churches are Killer Neutral 5 - So you must capture the 3 Churches and London in the same turn.
Parlement - Common's Support will assist Lords and Ladies whom has less...
Basically reverse Land Bonus.. Starts at 12 Troops Deploy for players with 1 city, but then reduces down as players gains more until players with 13 plus areas will no longer receive any Commoner's Support in the Parlement; Instead they need to rely on Lord support which will be based of complete color combinations which are illustrated on the mini-map..
Ships are just like any other land except they start with Neutral 10.
All other Ports and non-starting shield cities will be 5 Neutrals.

This is not like any other map - and will be a challenge for even the most clever of players...

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Last edited by Aleena on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby RjBeals on Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:20 pm

I like this style, sort of bit-mappy, and unique. The only thing I would work on is your legend map. It doesn't fit it in with the large map style. But nice work on this.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:32 pm

Ty RjBeals for your views...

Also since Churches are now Killer Reset Neutrals - I'll have to remove them from the color scheme of the areas...
So with-in the next day I'll have a new map displaying the Churches as non-color (Golden Crosses instead of different color crosses)

Also will make the mini-map smaller to allow room to explain about the reverse bonus based on # of areas controlled..

The mini-map is only suppose to indicate the color regions and the amount of Bonus deploy you get for controlling those areas - not sure how to change the look of it with-out over complicating the message it's trying to relay... Any suggestions would help....
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:46 pm

Churches block allot of the paths so they can not be killer neutral and reset each turn, or no one will be able to expand - therefore they will be decaying neutrals instead. Players can claim then, then each turn they lose one unit in each church until the churches turn neutral again.

Click image to enlarge.
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I think this fixed all the issues and I was able to squeeze the needed info in to the Legend...

Any comments?
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:48 am

Aleena, moving forward we need you to have your first post subject line updated like this:
War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v3 pg 4
This helps to know what version you are on and what page your most recent update is on.

That being said, here is your shiny new stamp (if a stamp can be shiny)!!
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:33 pm

=D> =D> Congrats Aleena.
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby Aleena on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:10 pm

ty cairnswk
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:25 pm

Aleena, a couple of suggestions if i may.
1. there appears very little shoreline blue around the French coast
2. your legend is very crowded to read even at this large size.
You have a large amount of real estate not being used adeqately up in the east waters area.
Woud you consider moving the "participants and shields" up to that corner.
This will give you more space to play with in the left legend when you do your small image.
Like ToJ, i have reduced the large map to small size and the text is going to be a legible issue that will arise for you with all that text in there; even though some of it may be superfluous and can be eliminated eventually. :)
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby Aleena on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:00 pm

Want more shore line around France, I'll see what I can do for ya.....

As for the Legend, I agree it appears to be a huge wall of text that no one wants to read...
I started a discussion thread that suggested a future upgrade that would allow us to remove the Legend off the map and onto a cover jpg file that can be toggled over the map any time as needed... But no one seems to want to comment on this... Another player is planing to do a scrolling Legend using gif format - which I think is a cool, idea, but do not know if it is supported by this site when it comes to map design....

I have not though about placing any info in the upper eastern corner since version 5.4 and earlier... Thank you for suggesting it, I'll move a few things around (I'll try adding info to the upper eastern area) and change some wording - I'll see what I can do...

Also as far as game-play goes...

I'm going to add another city: Plymouth (Port City) next to Compton, so that Compton does not need to fight it's way through 2 churches at the start of the game...

Also I'm planning on lowering the auto-deploy for London in half. Though London might need the support due to the fact that all the other player's are after his throne, I find after doing a few modal tests that London would start the game too powerful with the combination of it's auto-deploy and the commoner's support in Parlement.

Also since London will now be controlled by a thinking player and get's auto-deploy - I no longer think it is no longer needed to make attacking London so hard. Initially the player needed to control 4 churches before they could assault London, I have lowered it to 3 recently - but after a few tests - it appears that it needs to be lowered to only 2 churches.

Thank you for your suggestions and your support....
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby ViperOverLord on Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:50 am

Nice. This map has an NES look about it.
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:24 am

Aleena congrats on getting stamped. Here are 3 GP things for you to look at and answer for me.

What is any neutrals are you going to have on the map?
Ports, why do you have different symbols for these? It would be nice to see a symbol for all of them identical without any colour from the bonus region on them to cut back on confusion.
All of the territ texts seem to have different font sizes. Is their a reason for this?
Ships, why do you have them facing each other, are their two fleets?

More later. ;)
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:47 am

Well if this is going to be a 12 player map instead of 8 - most spots will start out as neutrals... Each player will most likely only start with one space... debating about giving them 2 scattered spaces at start ... (But I think one initial spot will win) Also reworking the mechanics now that London is no longer a Neutral - instead it's PLAYER #1 - so until I fully worked out all the balancing - I'm still playing with the actual QTY of neutrals.... But ALL BOATS, AND MOST SPACES WILL BE NEUTRAL TO START...

The colored regions are down by coloring the TOWNS - instead of blanket coloring of the grounds ... I think this gives the map more of a feel of an adventure game instead of just a paper map that everyone else seems focused on... Ports are towns too - and Ports are part of each region - So it makes no since to me to clutter the map with TWO icons to display a PORT - one as the TOWN which it is and one to show it's a port... I think that would be more confusing then just having a uniform port symbol as I all ready have a uniform town symbol - and as all the towns are colored for their regions - also should be their ports - I find it strange that you have an issue for such a logical and commonly used labeling practice... Not sure why the coloring back is confusing - gosh for you the classic map must really confuse you with all the colored backing on the different regions it has.... (It's pretty much the same - and is also done with my towns - are they confusing to you too?)

The terrain text are all the same size (outside of Lincoln which was in the works of being cleaned when I posted this) - it's an optical illusion because of the outlined colors around them and how some colors are more pronounced then others... But I'm all ready working on cleaning up the text - hope you'll like the new text better....

All the Ships are facing towards the center of the map -- - How would you place them? Since the focus of the war is mostly towards the center of the map - so the ships should appear facing in that direction... War of the roses is a family fighting itself - basically a huge civil war - so all ships are both apart of the same fleet as well as all ships are against each other - it really depends on which player owns which ship and what the player wishes to do with it....

Thank you for your support and your feed back - but was not sure if it was suppose to be constructive feedback - or just trying to poke my side... In any case - I hope these answers clearly explain your questions....
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:03 am

Aleena wrote:Well if this is going to be a 12 player map instead of 8 - most spots will start out as neutrals... Each player will most likely only start with one space... debating about giving them 2 scattered spaces at start ... (But I think one initial spot will win) Also reworking the mechanics now that London is no longer a Neutral - instead it's PLAYER #1 - so until I fully worked out all the balancing - I'm still playing with the actual QTY of neutrals.... But ALL BOATS, AND MOST SPACES WILL BE NEUTRAL TO START...

So what are going to be your starting regions on the map?
Aleena wrote:The colored regions are down by coloring the TOWNS - instead of blanket coloring of the grounds ... I think this gives the map more of a feel of an adventure game instead of just a paper map that everyone else seems focused on... Ports are towns too - and Ports are part of each region - So it makes no since to me to clutter the map with TWO icons to display a PORT - one as the TOWN which it is and one to show it's a port... I think that would be more confusing then just having a uniform port symbol as I all ready have a uniform town symbol - and as all the towns are colored for their regions - also should be their ports - I find it strange that you have an issue for such a logical and commonly used labeling practice... Not sure why the coloring back is confusing -

I have no problem with you colouring the symbols over the gound and that is not the confusing part of the map. In Douglas which has no town, it has a green name and a green port. This to me suggests that it is part of the green bonus. But if you go down to Penzance, the name and port are in purple. Not a bad idea as it is part of the purple region. My question was and which you did not answer is this, the port symbol which has nothing to do with bonuses or towns needs to become a standard symbol so when a player looks at the board, he can quickly identify the symbol and plan his attack accordingly. This will become vital for anyone who is playing a 1 minute speed game on this map. :roll:
Aleena wrote:gosh for you the classic map must really confuse you with all the colored backing on the different regions it has.... (It's pretty much the same - and is also done with my towns - are they confusing to you too?)

Sarcasm will get you no where. =D>
Aleena wrote:The terrain text are all the same size (outside of Lincoln

So it is not all the same size.
Aleena wrote:it's an optical illusion because of the outlined colors around them and how some colors are more pronounced then others... But I'm all ready working on cleaning up the text - hope you'll like the new text better....

Why not just say it is being cleaned up. :roll:
Aleena wrote:All the Ships are facing towards the center of the map -- - How would you place them? Since the focus of the war is mostly towards the center of the map - so the ships should appear facing in that direction... War of the roses is a family fighting itself - basically a huge civil war - so all ships are both apart of the same fleet as well as all ships are against each other - it really depends on which player owns which ship and what the player wishes to do with it....

I know the War of the Roses. But like the ports, you have two symbols. It might be the same ship, but they face different directions. As they are part of the game play, have them all face left or right so confusion is limited.
Aleena wrote:Thank you for your support and your feed back - but was not sure if it was suppose to be constructive feedback - or just trying to poke my side... In any case - I hope these answers clearly explain your questions....

All of my feedback is constructive, it is my job as a cartographer to help you make the best map possible. How you take it is up to you.
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:33 am

Symbols Towns are color castle icons
Symbols Ports are color coded Ancures
Lords/Ladies and their Affiliation are Shield Symbols

Douglas and Penzance are color coded and labeled identically
Only different is Douglas also has a Lord Affiliation (a shield)

The Initial Lords/Ladies starting places are listed on the Legend at the side of the map...
Does Actually say which Lord starts where - since all Lords have multiple affiliations through out the map..

If all the ships are facing the same direction - then it would appear that 1/2 the ships are fleeing from the battle field - Since this map is to look more like a adventure game, then a plain piece of paper - I think it makes more since that the ships face the action and not just generically stamped all in the same direction - (guess this is just a matter of opinion)
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:58 pm

Aleena, I can read your map perfectly, but it needs a lot of work, please let me help you get to the next level. You may not agree with my advice, but you need to come up with a reason not to follow it, just like every other map maker including me.
Aleena wrote:Symbols Towns are color castle icons
Symbols Ports are color coded Ancures
Lords/Ladies and their Affiliation are Shield Symbols

I know that and I am not asking for this to be changed. What I said is the anchors and the towns do not need to be coloured in like the regions they are in. They are already in the regions so their is no need for it. You have given too much information here and this will only lead to confusion among players. You have no need to colour code these two items. Players will know where they are by looking at the map itself.
Aleena wrote:Douglas and Penzance are color coded and labeled identically
Only different is Douglas also has a Lord Affiliation (a shield)

They are not labelled identically, they have different colours for the bonus regions they are in. But that is not the point. The point was the other symbols.
Aleena wrote:The Initial Lords/Ladies starting places are listed on the Legend at the side of the map...
Does Actually say which Lord starts where - since all Lords have multiple affiliations through out the map..

This I can see but it is hard to see/find them on the map. Try increasing the font size or something else on the starting regions to make them easier to find.
Aleena wrote:If all the ships are facing the same direction - then it would appear that 1/2 the ships are fleeing from the battle field - Since this map is to look more like a adventure game, then a plain piece of paper - I think it makes more since that the ships face the action and not just generically stamped all in the same direction -

No it would not, and in war, some people run away.
During the WARS OF THE ROSES, England had no standing fleet, and naval needs were met by indenting (contracting) with merchants and nobles to supply ships and crews to perform a specified service for a specified time. Not meant for voyaging in the open sea, civil war naval forces operated mainly in the Narrow Seas (i.e., the English Channel), where they undertook to intercept invaders, ward off coastal raiders, transport English armies, protect English traders, and maintain communication and supply lines with CALAIS
http://weaponsandwarfare.com/?p=303

As the ships are out of place on the map as it is, having them face the same direction for ease of use and game play needs to be done. As for saying that the ships need to face inwards to because you want to make it look like a computer game other than a piece of paper, I am afraid that is not a good enough reason to say no to the idea.

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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:53 pm

Koontz - I understand different players will have different opinions - and it is not possible to please everyone - so when it comes down to it - are you telling me that your opinion matters more then mine or anyone elses? and if I do not change things to match your view then this map will not progress?

Initially all the territory names where one color and only the Towns, Ports, and Churches was color coordinated - so these buildings needed to be so in order to determine which area is what color... Others suggested that it might enhance the map to add a glow of the region color around the names as well (not instead of) - If I have a choice - I prefer the buildings to be different colors and not have the text with a glow - versus keeping the glow then making all the buildings and ports look identical in color....

I diss-agree with you on the boat directions on the map - But I'll think about it..... Because it is an easy fix.... And I still do not understand why it makes that much of a difference to ya, since they are mostly decoration - they do not actual move like units across the board - they are just to catch the eye to the counter circle territory just under them... The do not effect movement route (as if players could only attack in the direction the boats are facing) no in fact the boats open up movement across the map much faster in all directions... I really do not fully understand why you have a huge issue with it... Have the face the same direction for ease of use? You do not really use them - they are only a marker for the water space area unit circle under them - and they function exactly the same no matter if you had them facing same direction, away from each other, towards each other - even if they where upside down - it would not effect the game play what so ever...

As for the starting locations... They will be easy to find on the map - for they will be the only one with (your colored) number on it... All starting places will have a easily seen counter number of the color of the player playing it - which will pop out since all other numbers of the neutrals will be white..... I do not see why that would be so hard to figure out?? Other games I play with set- or random dropped locations do not need any extra flagging to say your pieces are here so why should this one?
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby ztodd on Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:15 pm

I completely agree with Aleena on the direction the ships face. I think it's pretty funny that you make a big deal about that koontz.
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:02 pm

ztodd wrote:I completely agree with Aleena on the direction the ships face. I think it's pretty funny that you make a big deal about that koontz.

Yeah, the ships all face in towards the main battlefield. It makes sense, that naval attack menaces towards the land.
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby Bruceswar on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:15 pm

leave the ships as they are... move on to the next issue.
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Re: War of the Roses [8/12/2013] v11 pg 9

Postby cairnswk on Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:08 pm

Bruceswar wrote:leave the ships as they are... move on to the next issue.

Here, here, koontz, this is not a big enough deal to hold up on.
the ships are facing the correct way to take troops to England. :)
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