[Vaction valid until August 2014] Stronghold

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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby ManBungalow on Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:15 pm

Thanks all for some good feedback so far.



Does anybody else feel this way?
dolomite13 wrote:I would actually suggest scrapping all of he graphics and starting from scratch...



dolomite13 wrote:...with colors for each "continent", water that is blue, and mountains that look more like mountains.

Mountains and probably water, yes. The continents...I quite like being able to see the ground colours everywhere. Maybe some colour in the region names instead like Africa II ? Link: http://maps.conquerclub.com/Africa_II2.S.jpg
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:21 pm

Love the Stronghold colors and design, make it a complete circle - and branch out from that - maybe having lighter color near the stronghold and slowly getting darker, creepier colors and graphics away from the Stronghold...

Also like the shields....

I did not see the mountains as mountains, I thought they were cavern walls - to me it looks like the stronghold in under ground - if they are mountains, and not cavern walls - then yes I agree, it would be nice with better mountains..

No one seems to like the color of the water and I have to agree with that as well...

But I do like the green shades of color of the areas... Maybe replace the mountains/cavern walls with Trees so that it goes better with the area colors and just have the stronghold located in the center of a forest near a lake or water - instead of in the mountains.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dakky21 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:04 pm

I like the map as it is, I'd only change color of terrain, like you have grain fields or swamps or low density forest.... and that's it. This one looks like a finished map to me :) and the font is fine :)
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby rishaed on Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:30 pm

I also think that the rebels need fixing, the thing is that simply put unlike the Siren's in Labyrinth they just autodeploy troops that you can't use/fortify with which thus makes the autodeploy useless. So lets say that you get eight guys on this map one takes the rebel territ, gets eliminated from every other territory on the map, but the Rebel base. Hes not eliminated but he can't win anymore either. It would cause frustration to players who this might happen to.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dakky21 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:24 am

rishaed wrote: Hes not eliminated but he can't win anymore either. It would cause frustration to players who this might happen to.


Yeah that would suck. But then again, San Francisco has Alcatraz, where same idea is used and it works pretty well/funny.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:01 pm

What if you change it so that rebels border each other and they can 1-way attack the nearest army? That makes the rebels more useful and it introduces additional connections to the upper right portion of the map while sticking with the theme (rebels exchange information with each other and constantly harass the armies) and without having to add bridges or change the layout.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:24 pm

Rebels border each other?
I actually prefer the Rebels scattered across the map as they are now.
What I think might be cool though is that even though the rebels are at 3 different corners of the map - that they are all connected to each other (as if they have a hidden passage between them which connects them.)

So they will be able to do the bombarding as you desire - but they also can only assault and move between each other.
So rebels from the east (for example) can reinforce the rebels to the west - if the west appears to be in trouble at the time - by traveling through an unseen (maybe underground) hidden rebel passageway. This way a player that has control over the rebels do not feel as trapped in those one spots and they can still move at least between themselves as they see the action move around the board.

So once a rebel all ways a rebel (can not leave a rebel space) - but can move between them (which are located at different corners of the map) and from each location they have their own bombardment sites. (They should expand their bombardment areas a little - I think 4 bombardment targets per rebel site would be nice.)

Over View:

Sun Rebels
Can Bombard:
.....Potter
.....Gargoyle
.....Bishop Plains
.....Minty Fields

Coven Rebels
Can Bombard:
.....Raven
.....Iron Mine
.....Murky Valley
....Nickel Mine

Night Rebels
Can Bombard:
.....Copper
.....Tin Mine
.....Brothers' Pass
.....Scavenger Mount

Lake Rebels
Can Bombard:
....Threadhare
.....Olive Trees
.....Hares
.....Isthmus


Adjacent spaces to the Rebels have a oneway connection with the rebels.
All Rebels are only connected to themselves (all other Rebels)
So each Rebel space will have 4 bombardment sites, and be able to move, attack or reinforce any of the other Rebel sites.


Suggested Bombardment areas have cross arrows on them.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby ViperOverLord on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:10 am

ManBungalow wrote:What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: idk


Uh, duh! That it won the huge competition!
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby ManBungalow on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:19 am

Aleena wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
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I dig this.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:28 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
ManBungalow wrote:What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: idk


Uh, duh! That it won the huge competition!


Yes but that doesn't mean it makes it worthy of being played. It now has a chance to move through the forge the same as any other map.

I would love to see another fantasy based map as they are my favorite kind. However when looking at this map I don't feel any sense of High Fantasy. I'm sorry that I just don't. I feel the same as when I look at the classic map.

I know your not working on final graphics at the moment and that it is currently time for gameplay discussion, bonus amounts, etc... But I really hope that when you do start polishing the map you look at adding that high fantasy feel and theme to the map that it so deserves.

This is a great foundation for a map and I look forward to seeing how it develops.

Just my 13 cents worth

=D13=

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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:14 am

What was the point of the competition - if map just has to take it's chances through the stamping process just like all the other maps that was not in the competition?

Not saying that I do not think that this map should be worked on and improved as much as possible, just don't understand the competition thing I guess ... (well I am a noob... :( )

You feel the same when looking at this map as you do looking at the classic? "Wow, that is a great complement - for the classic map is one of the most used maps on this site - that might show that this map all ready ranks as a high playing map even before it is map..)

Theme - to me it appears that the theme is that the Invaders to this area (the players) wish to storm the stronghold and loot it for all it's goods... Unfortunately so does all the other players wish to do the same thing - so this will not only be a battle of the stronghold, yet it will also be a struggle to fight off all these other greedy invaders - and if that was not bad enough - your men run into a huge organized clan of Rebels just in the outskirts whom will kill anyone that travels across their lands and that includes you - unless you find a way to work into their ranks and if so - you might be able to use these rebels to help you slow down those other greedy invaders as you try to take the stronghold for your own....

I do not think it needs anymore of a theme then this - and this is all understood and did not need to be written, it just needs some close minded players to open their own imagination and enjoy a battle on a battlefield no matter what reason you are there for....
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:36 pm

I am sure that ManBungalow will take into consideration peoples feedback and adjust the map as it goes through the foundry. I have no doubt that the final map will be something I want to play.

=D13=
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby ManBungalow on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:38 pm

Some graphical changes.

Plus a bridge.

I'd like to have the rebel territories to have a bombard range of 2. But also able to attack out (range 1) as usual? This change isn't yet included in the updated image.

I really had in mind that the rebels be like neutral regions...not involved in the goings-on of the kingdoms, hence the initial stay-on-one-spot feature.

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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:04 pm

ManBungalow wrote:Does anybody else feel this way?
dolomite13 wrote:I would actually suggest scrapping all of he graphics and starting from scratch...

...with colors for each "continent", water that is blue, and mountains that look more like mountains.

Mountains and probably water, yes. The continents...I quite like being able to see the ground colours everywhere.

Don't change it. I don't want realistic mountains or realistic water. The map is quirky, it looks hand-drawn, and that is the charming attraction of it, to me.

It's fine just the way it is.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby ManBungalow on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:32 pm

Is the font sample given here better than the current font?

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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:01 pm

Looks good to me...
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby jonofperu on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:51 am

Grats again, ManB!
I like this map. I think the graphics helped win the competition so maybe the colors, etc don't need to be changed too much.

Personally I think mountains make more sense than forests as impassables. (If there are some trees between my army and yours that doesn't really stop me...) So I would go back to mountains. Maybe make them more grey/rocky (even snow-capped)?

I like the idea of connected rebels so they don't become three separate isolated troop-collecting dead-ends. Whether or not a person gets stuck on one as his last territ, they become pretty useless if they just sit there with this growing pile of troops that can't do anything but bomb adjacent. (Once an army started building there everyone would just avoid getting close. Come to think of it that's an interesting feature - to create a kind of "bomb" everyone has to avoid... but I don't think it works for the map because attention is focused away from the rebels on the stronghold.) I would really like to see them attack out somewhere... the question is where. How to preserve a kind of unique function for them? Maybe the rebels attack the 3 armies in front of the stronghold? Or even better, what if the rebels attack as normal all territories around them, but bombard the 3 armies? That's a great way to break into the neutral-guarded armies. You still have to coordinate an attack since you need ground troops to actually assault the armies. It's also fits the theme/concept that the rebels would harry the armies - bombardment. And the rebels become very strategic spots because the auto-deploy can be forted. If they also attack or bomb each other its a really dynamic feature. I think you need to at least give them the utility of archers on King's Court - where they attack other archers and eventually bomb something useful. You still have to think twice about taking them, but they have a function. However, I would really like to see something more dynamic as suggested.

Perhaps my biggest issue with the map is I don't see a high fantasy connection. Again, it's a great map, but it feels like an adventure map that could happen in Sherwood (as mentioned in the other post), or Kosovo, or New York, or anywhere. What's "fantasy" about it? Names? Do cosmetics or naming make a map high fantasy? I don't think we could paint over the Classic map and change Europe to Mordor and Berlin to Mount Doom or something and now it's fantasy. There is no essential fantasy element in this map.
When I start trying to think of how the map could be transformed into more of a "high fantasy" map I end up drawing from my own map (a very poor submission which was very unfinished :lol: ). So I apologize in advance, but this is how I approached fantasy.
You could have magic wielders or "centers of power" instead of rebels. These centers of power somehow connect to each other and either attack the stronghold or affect the armies in some way. Maybe gaining control of the stronghold grants a special advantage/ability. There's the classic "once you conquer the stronghold you can attack/bomb everything." Or maybe to emphasize the fantasy theme again - from the stronghold you can attack the centers of power (rebels).
The focus of the map would then be on these really dynamic fantasy-themed powerful hubs. Of course you would really have to wrestle with balance - but if there are multiple connected points maybe that's mitigated.
The biggest problem with these suggestions that comes to my mind right away is the complexity. Is there a way to implement any of this without becoming too complex? Connections across the map, etc aren't immediately apparent and mean the map requires some study to understand - which you wanted to avoid (in your 1 min random speed game scenario).
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby jonofperu on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:08 am

For a name I like Stronghold... or maybe Bastion of Power if that's not too corny LOL.
It's a mountain keep... fortress...
something unconquerable... impregnable...
There's another gameplay idea, but maybe too radical: you have to conquer several points and bring them together to breach the walls of the impregnable fortress... :roll:
It's unassailable, invulnerable... there's a name here somewhere! :D
Maybe just stick with Stronghold.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:44 am

I like the name Stronghold as well...

As far as fantasy goes...
If you did not know the stories/ did not read the books / did not see the movies - and you've been given a small map of one section of the stories such as the city of Brea, Mordor, Mount Doom, ect... What you would see is not fantasy - but a map or a town, or just an area or mountain - you would not see anything FANTASY about it for the fantasy is the story and the people - and when a good fantasy is written - it takes place in lands that are similar to lands that people can relate to - like historical designed castles and towers, wooden outposts with fire signals - mountain passes and impassable overgrown jungle foliage - - - Before all the stories and movies even the names like Mordor is not a fantasy name - it is a made up name that has no relevance until someone finally connects it to a story or a battle...

example of so called fantasy (or not) maps from stated examples:
Click image to enlarge.
image

Click image to enlarge.
image



So as far as fantasy goes I can see a fantasy story growing out of this map - one just needs to open their minds to receive it.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:45 am

Also I like the idea of the connecting Rebels - wait I think it was my idea... :)
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby jonofperu on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:04 am

Good points Aleena.

Maybe I just have a different take on what makes a map "high fantasy". I tried going back through the original post, but couldn't find the specific discussion about this (that post needs an index or something LOL). I do remember that there are a lot of similar categories (Harry Potter as based in the real world - whatever that category was) and high fantasy won as an option distinct from those. So I think the map should have something essentially high fantasy about it, not just being an imaginary scenario rather than a real one.

You're right, take a map out of Lord of the Rings and it's just a map. So then how does one make "just a map" fit a fantasy genre?
Graphics: you could have fantasy-sounding names (not related to any particular book/movie); use/draw elves, dwarves, dragons, or other fantastic characters.
Story: this is complicated, because there's not much room to write up a story on a CC map. The story would have to be immediately evident in the image presented. Which comes back to graphics. You have to see something "epic" and/or "fantastical", not just adventurous. If it's immediately evident that imaginary creatures are facing off in a scenario that may or may not resemble our world, then I think it's fantasy. Or you could have humans with fantastic powers - magic. I'm not sure that making the scope "epic" by saying the armies facing off have millions of soldiers (for example) would make it high fantasy.
Function/features: I imagine this depends entirely on story. If a magical ability lets you attack something you couldn't attack as a "normal" person/territ then it fits the genre really well.

Or maybe I'm completely off on this and the map can be made as is. As I said... I like it! So I can just shut up... :D
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:04 am

Not sure what the difference between .. High Fantasy and just Fantasy...

I also like this map...
I feel the cross swords and shields give it a touch of fantasy - for now a days people do not fight with swords and shields...
Can not make out the image on the rebel's shields but it looks a little fantasy like to me...
Also the mystical or magical symbols in the water on the bottom left, also adds a little bit to the fantasy feel...

But over all - the general mood of the map from it's gloomy color scheme to the magical bluish glow of the Stronghold itself gives a contrast in such a way that makes one feel that the Stronghold is mystical powerful place..

I like this map... And I think it fits the theme...
I also like the Rebel camps connected though (magical or hidden pathways) with 3 or 4 bombardment points instead of one. This makes the Rebel camps more dynamic and less of a trap on the map.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:30 pm

This is from a blog that I think sum's up high fantasy rather well.

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Wikipedia defines ‘high fantasy’ as being fantasy set in imaginary worlds, and ‘low fantasy’ as fantasy set in the real world (or ‘a rational and familiar fictional world’) with fantasy elements. I think this definition is misleading. A story isn’t high or low fantasy based on whether it’s set in an imaginary world; low fantasy is an attitude.

If high fantasy is The Lord of the Rings, low fantasy is Conan. High fantasy is ‘shiny’ and over-the-top and often though not always optimistic; low fantasy is about low tech settings where life is short. Larry Elmore is high fantasy; Erol Otus and John Blanche are low fantasy. Monty Python and Terry Gilliam’s Medieval stories are low fantasy, with their emphasis on mud and blood and grass and grime.

If you look at trends in MMOs over the last 12 years, they’re basically a progression to higher and higher fantasy. Ultima Online, the first major commercial MMO back in 1998, had all the visual flair of a bunch of Renaissance Faire people running around in the woods of Michigan (it didn’t even have nonhuman races!), but Everquest, which overtook it in popularity, had more dragons and orcs and stuff, and in World of Warcraft, fantasy is almost indistinguishable from superheroes.

There are still some popular fantasy franchises which are more low-fantasy than high, like the “Song of Ice and Fire” series (an important character being murdered in the privy is definitely low-fantasy). But would anyone play a lengthy RPG or spend days in a virtual world if it put them at a *worse* situation than in real life—grubbing for roots, patching worn clothes, suffering leprosy and fighting off continual hordes of goblins?

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In the end it is the feel that the map give you, conveyed by it's imagery and any story elements described on that map that will help to elevate it to that of high fantasy. Is the current map "high fantasy"? That is debatable and everyone will surely have their own opinion. My opinion is that it is not but it is surely a good foundation to build upon.

As for the name. Stick with Stronghold however consider a subtitle like "Stronghold: Struggle for the Blood Throne" or something like that. It will add to the flavor and help bring that extra special high fantasy feel. And help to set it apart from the Stronghold series of computer games or the board game of the same name.

=D13=
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:51 pm

Based on your above explanation of High and low fantasy (ty now i know) - your subtitle "Struggle for the Blood Throne" gives a more dark view, so it would be more low fantasy... Guess you meant to suggest a subtitle as something like "Stronghold - The Crystal Meadows of the Rainbow Unicorn" - now that's a shiny name.... No dirt and mud, no doom or gloom at all...

Think I just like stronghold, but I do not mind if they add a subtitle...
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:08 pm

Aleena wrote:Based on your above explanation of High and low fantasy (ty now i know) - your subtitle "Struggle for the Blood Throne" gives a more dark view, so it would be more low fantasy... Guess you meant to suggest a subtitle as something like "Stronghold - The Crystal Meadows of the Rainbow Unicorn" - now that's a shiny name.... No dirt and mud, no doom or gloom at all...

Think I just like stronghold, but I do not mind if they add a subtitle...


How about

Stronghold: Siege of the Crystal Citadel

now that will certainly sparkle
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