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[Abandoned] - Chess

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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:54 pm

Honestly I don't know how gameplay would be... especially with groups or team games.
But I would definitly play this map.

It's pretty much self explainitory, I don't think this map needs anything if the graphics pass.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby MrBenn on Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:09 am

I'd be inclined to move the army numbers to the left-hand side of the square, so that 3-digit numbers don't overlap onto a differnet square.

[Advanced Draft]
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby Downey on Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:27 pm

Nice idea! Question: can empty spaces attack after they've been conquered?
For example, D1 attacks E1; can E1 attack E2?
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby gimil on Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:48 pm

'Chess pieces may attack any square that they could move to in real chess'

I know how to play chess but I be there are loads of players out there that don't know. Your going to have to put a graphical representation on the map to show how each piece can move. However this graphical representation can cause problems with pawns. Pawns in there starting positions can move two spaces on there first move and one there after, but they can also one move in one direction, which would differ between black and white.

You also have conflicting rules, like pieces cannot attack a piece of the same colour. I see that D4's piece can move to B3's piece through one rule but stopped by another.

You have many a challenge ahead of you for this map my friend. I wish you luck and hope to see you in the main foundry soon.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby Natewolfman on Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:10 pm

gimil wrote: Pawns in there starting positions can move two spaces on there first move and one there after.

that shouldnt matter, since weather you are moving 1 or 2 spots you cant kill anything, so it is irrelivent
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby john9blue on Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:12 am

MrBenn wrote:I'd be inclined to move the army numbers to the left-hand side of the square, so that 3-digit numbers don't overlap onto a differnet square.

[Advanced Draft]


Thanks, and that's a good idea. I'll put that in the next draft.

Downey wrote:Nice idea! Question: can empty spaces attack after they've been conquered?
For example, D1 attacks E1; can E1 attack E2?


Yes. It says "Empty squares attack up, down, left, & right." So, each square without a piece has 4 attack options, unless it's on the edge.

gimil wrote:'Chess pieces may attack any square that they could move to in real chess'

I know how to play chess but I be there are loads of players out there that don't know. Your going to have to put a graphical representation on the map to show how each piece can move.


I was kind of hoping that I wouldn't have to do this. On the one hand, everyone should be able to play any map, but on the other hand, almost everybody knows how to play chess, and if they don't, they could either find out easily or just not play this map. Maybe I'll poll later.

gimil wrote:However this graphical representation can cause problems with pawns. Pawns in there starting positions can move two spaces on there first move and one there after, but they can also one move in one direction, which would differ between black and white.


Actually, pawns can move either one or two spaces on their first turn. That's why there are pawns in rows 3 and 6.

Also, the side colors are written on the left side of the board (black player on the top, white player on the bottom). I'll put arrows or something to clarify. Even without those, it's pretty obvious who is on what side and which way the pawns move.

gimil wrote:You also have conflicting rules, like pieces cannot attack a piece of the same colour. I see that D4's piece can move to B3's piece through one rule but stopped by another.

You have many a challenge ahead of you for this map my friend. I wish you luck and hope to see you in the main foundry soon.


The first sentence of the instructions should be taken literally. It is as if you are sitting down at a chessboard. If you're playing as white, you can't move your knight to the spaces that your bishop or pawn are occupying. You've got six empty white squares to choose from, though. I just said that pieces can't attack other pieces of the same color because a few people were confused about that. Thanks for your support!

As a side note, does anyone know if I can reuse the Photoshop demo? I got it for my old computer, but after uninstalling and reinstalling it, it still said that my time was up. I just started winter break today, and won't have access to the university's software for about a month. If anyone knows how I could get Photoshop without having to pay (I already have access at school anyway), then advice would be appreciated. Thanks. :)
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby gimil on Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:56 pm

Most of the rebuttel you gave me if heavily weight towards the assumption that everyone knows how to play chess. Your idea that MOST people know how to play it (I feel) is a little fabricated. Rules for maps have to be explained clearly on a map for CC. you can't refer to rules for other games outside CC.

Sorry but thats the way it is.

p.s. once your photoshop trial is over, its over. CS4 has just came out I believe, so you may be able o get a trial for that at adobe.com. (Assuming your last trial wasn't photoshop CS4)
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby Gilligan on Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:02 pm

I don't know if this has been brought up or not... But what about the visibility of the gray armies on black spaces?
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby edbeard on Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:31 pm

the placement of your pawns has made their instructions easy. Pawns may attack in their column in row 3 or 4 unless blocked by another piece (on either team).

the other pieces might be best done via visual aid since the knight's attack is complicated/long to explain in words. words overall take up less space than a bunch of pictures though.

you have space to add to the bottom of your map for these instructions.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:09 pm

Why not say this... if they don't know how to play chess, they can:
1. Not play the map
2. Search the rules up online and actually learn something useful.

Either way, someone wins.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby ZeakCytho on Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:26 pm

I think the best way to do it would be to have small diagrams showing a blank board (or section of the board) with the piece in question in it and, shaded in some color, all the spots it can attack. You'd only need 6 - pawn, rook, bishop, knight, king, queen - maybe 7, for front-row pawns having the move-two-spaces ability, but you could probably just make a note saying "Pawns in rows 2 and 7 can attack two spaces ahead."

As for the legend, try this text instead. "Chess pieces may attack any square as shown by the diagrams below. Empty squares may attack adjacent squares [and pieces]. Pieces of the same color cannot attack each other."

Then put the note about autodepoying right below - where it says "Piece Bonuses:", change to "Piece Bonuses: (Autodeploy)", perhaps with the parenthetical note on the line below in a smaller font.

You should also mention that you get the bonus for each piece. Right now it looks like you need the black and white pair to get the bonus, which makes no sense considering there are more than 2 of some pieces.

The objective text should also note that you need to hold them for one round. This has been a major point of contention with people playing other objective maps in the past.

I believe someone mentioned this before, but putting arrows on the left side of the board showing which way black and white pieces are moving can't hurt. Also, and this has been said too, try moving the army shadows to the left of the square.

Keep up the good work :D
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby Fire Mario on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:01 pm

I would adjust the bonuses a bit to maybe:
Pawn=1
Bishop/Knight=2
Rook=3
King/Queen=5

In real Chess, point values for each of the pieces for each of the pieces are as follows:
Pawn=1
Bishop=3
Knight=3
Rook=5
Queen=9
King=Priceless

I'd recommend changing the bonuses to reflect this.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:32 pm

wait do people start on some of the peices?
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:36 pm

Fire Mario wrote:I would adjust the bonuses a bit to maybe:
Pawn=1
Bishop/Knight=2
Rook=3
King/Queen=5

In real Chess, point values for each of the pieces for each of the pieces are as follows:
Pawn=1
Bishop=3
Knight=3
Rook=5
Queen=9
King=Priceless

I'd recommend changing the bonuses to reflect this.


Small note, Bishop is 3.5 according to most systems. Also, the point system in chess assumes a full board of pieces and an active exchange of turns, neither of which are true for this map. I would suggest shaping the bonus system more in keeping with the actual bonuses seen, though that could be difficult with the numerous different pieces on the board.

I find it a crying shame that we have to illustrate the rules of one of the oldest games in history just to "be on the safe side", but since the Word of Gimil says that it must be so, here's what I suggest:

- Kill the text box, in its entirety.
- Have an "Attacks" heading.
- Have 3x3 chess square boxes for pawn, empty, and king. Illustrate with arrows.
- Have 5x5 chess square boxes for queen, rook, bishop. Illustrate with arrows.
- Note that same-color pieces can't attack each other somewhere (or can they?)
- Make the bonus notes a little smaller. Chess symbols are different enough that you can make them much smaller if needed.
- Since you nixed the auto-deploy note in the text box, note that all bonuses noted are auto-deploys above or below the bonus notes.

All of that should fit rather easily into the space you have provided. Heck, you might even have space to cut down on the height of the map by a bit.

Gameplay-wise, I would be biased in favor of changing bonuses around per piece, especially in the cases of the queens. I also think that the bonuses are fairly small considering the size of the map (64 territories). Buffing higher-power pieces while keeping the Pawns the same should do the trick.

One other thing to note: the 88's are rather hard to see on black-piece squares. I would suggest a fully opaque bounding box for them that's in the style of a chessboard or some-such.

And woot, your map got
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for the first time.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby cramill on Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:03 pm

Having attempted and failed at making a chess map for CC (I gave up and my idea wasn't that well liked because it didn't really work), I think your idea is quite a bit better than mine. Good work. I'm sure you'll get plenty more feedback on this.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby ustus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:06 pm

just one thing that bugs me as a chess player - you have the peices able to attack any space they could move over, which means the knight suddenly becomes a much more useful peice. I used to play a lot of chess, and the limitaitions of a knight's attacks are sort of tied into the peice in my mind. I think it would be more like chess if you had the peices attacking only squares they could normally attack, like you have with the pawns. Never made a map before, so let me know if there's a reason that doesn't work.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby ZeakCytho on Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:20 pm

ustus wrote:just one thing that bugs me as a chess player - you have the peices able to attack any space they could move over, which means the knight suddenly becomes a much more useful peice. I used to play a lot of chess, and the limitaitions of a knight's attacks are sort of tied into the peice in my mind. I think it would be more like chess if you had the peices attacking only squares they could normally attack, like you have with the pawns. Never made a map before, so let me know if there's a reason that doesn't work.


Unless I misunderstood what John has in the current version, I don't think you're correct. A knight can only attack spots it could move to in a real chess game, not empty spaces along its route. Blank spaces can attack adjacent blank spaces, however, and they can attack adjacent pieces too (though the piece cannot necessarily attack all adjacent spaces, unless it is a king or queen). So...I think what you're suggesting is what is already in place. And if not, it's definitely the way this map should be done.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby john9blue on Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:14 am

Sorry I haven't been responding. I'll have access to Photoshop in a week or two.

To-Do List:
-Explain movement with diagrams
-Move army shadows to the left
-Put bonuses on the bottom right of the pieces
-Specify one round for objective
-Specify autodeployment and single piece bonuses
-Put arrows on the side for the pawns (unless diagrams render them obsolete)
-Change the instructions box to fit whatever's left

gimil wrote:Most of the rebuttel you gave me if heavily weight towards the assumption that everyone knows how to play chess. Your idea that MOST people know how to play it (I feel) is a little fabricated. Rules for maps have to be explained clearly on a map for CC. you can't refer to rules for other games outside CC.

Sorry but thats the way it is.

p.s. once your photoshop trial is over, its over. CS4 has just came out I believe, so you may be able o get a trial for that at adobe.com. (Assuming your last trial wasn't photoshop CS4)


Meh, all right. I'll see what I can do.

Gilligan wrote:I don't know if this has been brought up or not... But what about the visibility of the gray armies on black spaces?


It should be fine. I put blue armies there because blue is usually the hardest color to see for me (and because I like blue). I'll test it later on in the process.

edbeard wrote:the placement of your pawns has made their instructions easy. Pawns may attack in their column in row 3 or 4 unless blocked by another piece (on either team).

the other pieces might be best done via visual aid since the knight's attack is complicated/long to explain in words. words overall take up less space than a bunch of pictures though.

you have space to add to the bottom of your map for these instructions.


I'll probably make a diagram, just in case.

The Neon Peon wrote:Why not say this... if they don't know how to play chess, they can:
1. Not play the map
2. Search the rules up online and actually learn something useful.

Either way, someone wins.


:lol: My thoughts exactly! But I'm putting diagrams anyway, since it has to be done.

ZeakCytho wrote:I think the best way to do it would be to have small diagrams showing a blank board (or section of the board) with the piece in question in it and, shaded in some color, all the spots it can attack. You'd only need 6 - pawn, rook, bishop, knight, king, queen - maybe 7, for front-row pawns having the move-two-spaces ability, but you could probably just make a note saying "Pawns in rows 2 and 7 can attack two spaces ahead."

As for the legend, try this text instead. "Chess pieces may attack any square as shown by the diagrams below. Empty squares may attack adjacent squares [and pieces]. Pieces of the same color cannot attack each other."

Then put the note about autodepoying right below - where it says "Piece Bonuses:", change to "Piece Bonuses: (Autodeploy)", perhaps with the parenthetical note on the line below in a smaller font.

You should also mention that you get the bonus for each piece. Right now it looks like you need the black and white pair to get the bonus, which makes no sense considering there are more than 2 of some pieces.

The objective text should also note that you need to hold them for one round. This has been a major point of contention with people playing other objective maps in the past.

I believe someone mentioned this before, but putting arrows on the left side of the board showing which way black and white pieces are moving can't hurt. Also, and this has been said too, try moving the army shadows to the left of the square.

Keep up the good work :D


Thanks for the suggestions... I'll probably use most of them.

Fire Mario wrote:I would adjust the bonuses a bit to maybe:
Pawn=1
Bishop/Knight=2
Rook=3
King/Queen=5

In real Chess, point values for each of the pieces for each of the pieces are as follows:
Pawn=1
Bishop=3
Knight=3
Rook=5
Queen=9
King=Priceless

I'd recommend changing the bonuses to reflect this.


I was having reservations about giving +3 to a single piece. +5 is a LOT, though. A defensive player could build up on the white queen and take either king at a moment's notice. It's like if Australia was +5 on Classic, and only had one territory instead of four. Queens will have neutrals, though. Oh yes... many neutrals. ;)

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:wait do people start on some of the peices?


No... they start everywhere else, though. This will be obvious at the start of the game.

TaCktiX wrote:Small note, Bishop is 3.5 according to most systems. Also, the point system in chess assumes a full board of pieces and an active exchange of turns, neither of which are true for this map. I would suggest shaping the bonus system more in keeping with the actual bonuses seen, though that could be difficult with the numerous different pieces on the board.

I find it a crying shame that we have to illustrate the rules of one of the oldest games in history just to "be on the safe side", but since the Word of Gimil says that it must be so, here's what I suggest:

- Kill the text box, in its entirety.
- Have an "Attacks" heading.
- Have 3x3 chess square boxes for pawn, empty, and king. Illustrate with arrows.
- Have 5x5 chess square boxes for queen, rook, bishop. Illustrate with arrows.
- Note that same-color pieces can't attack each other somewhere (or can they?)
- Make the bonus notes a little smaller. Chess symbols are different enough that you can make them much smaller if needed.
- Since you nixed the auto-deploy note in the text box, note that all bonuses noted are auto-deploys above or below the bonus notes.

All of that should fit rather easily into the space you have provided. Heck, you might even have space to cut down on the height of the map by a bit.

Gameplay-wise, I would be biased in favor of changing bonuses around per piece, especially in the cases of the queens. I also think that the bonuses are fairly small considering the size of the map (64 territories). Buffing higher-power pieces while keeping the Pawns the same should do the trick.

One other thing to note: the 88's are rather hard to see on black-piece squares. I would suggest a fully opaque bounding box for them that's in the style of a chessboard or some-such.


I might actually do that. Put a number on the bottom right (where the armies are now) that gives a bonus amount for that piece. The board isn't exactly balanced, anyway.

TaCktiX wrote:And woot, your map got
Image
for the first time.


Umm... hooray! \:D/

cramill wrote:Having attempted and failed at making a chess map for CC (I gave up and my idea wasn't that well liked because it didn't really work), I think your idea is quite a bit better than mine. Good work. I'm sure you'll get plenty more feedback on this.


Thanks, and I hope so.

ZeakCytho wrote:
ustus wrote:just one thing that bugs me as a chess player - you have the peices able to attack any space they could move over, which means the knight suddenly becomes a much more useful peice. I used to play a lot of chess, and the limitaitions of a knight's attacks are sort of tied into the peice in my mind. I think it would be more like chess if you had the peices attacking only squares they could normally attack, like you have with the pawns. Never made a map before, so let me know if there's a reason that doesn't work.


Unless I misunderstood what John has in the current version, I don't think you're correct. A knight can only attack spots it could move to in a real chess game, not empty spaces along its route. Blank spaces can attack adjacent blank spaces, however, and they can attack adjacent pieces too (though the piece cannot necessarily attack all adjacent spaces, unless it is a king or queen). So...I think what you're suggesting is what is already in place. And if not, it's definitely the way this map should be done.


Zeak's got it. The pieces don't attack spaces that they move over, they attack spaces that they move to. So, the knight can't attack the giant circle of spaces around it, only the 6 spaces that it can move to in real chess. :)
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby jyor0385 on Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:30 pm

Haven't looked through this whole thread but just wanted to say I really like this idea and it seems to be coming along very nicely. Can't wait to play it!
an⋅ni⋅hi⋅late 

  1. to reduce to utter ruin or nonexistence; destroy utterly.

  2. to destroy the collective existence or main body of; wipe out an army.
  3. to defeat completely; vanquish.
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby sailorseal on Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:19 pm

Very nice but could you make it a little bigger?
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:24 pm

sailorseal wrote:Very nice but could you make it a little bigger?

That'd be the small map. The Large is a different thing altogether.

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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby sailorseal on Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:26 pm

But this map is almost to small
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby john9blue on Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:29 pm

I started this map working on a 1024x800 screen and using the "Small Maps" setting. I'd get maps like Age of Realms where I'd have to scroll up and down, up and down every turn. I think this map will be easy enough to read as it is, especially because the territories don't need space for the name (they are in a grid), without being excessively large. The Large map will be very easy to read... I promise. ;)
Last edited by john9blue on Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby sailorseal on Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:36 pm

Great, this seems like a great idea combining the two most strategic games
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Re: Chess (12/15/08: Draft 8 Page 7)

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:17 pm

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the CAs will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made. ;-)

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