[Abandoned] - Los Angeles

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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby Incandenza on Mon May 12, 2008 2:01 am

ZOMG OAKTOWN YOU DA MAN! FINALLY !!!11111ELEVENTY

So, yeah, I'm excited about seeing a map of SoCal.

But I have a couple of trenchant comments:
1. I think you could get rid of Orange and the San Gabriel Valley, compact the map, and have more detailed neighborhoods (like Los Feliz, Koreatown, Lincoln Heights, Mar Vista, Naples, etc.) Basically make it a "true" Los Angeles map, as opposed to a Los Angeles Greater Metropolitan Area map.
2. Also, freeways were mentioned above, but I'd like to go into more detail about the concept: how about having the 101, 5, 405, 10, maybe the 605, 710, 105, etc, interspersed with onramps and the obvious interchanges. Then you could have one-way attacks on the freeways (in both directions: i.e. 101 North Silverlake would be able to attack 101 North Hollywood as well as 101 Hollywood Offramp, and 101 South Burbank would be able to attack 101 South Hollywood and 101 Hollywood Offramp, but 101 North Hollywood would NOT be able to attack 101 South Hollywood). It would be like a weird synthesis of a traditional geographic map like you have here and Circus Maximus (and it would be unlike anything else on the site). The advantage of the freeways is that you'd be able to (theoretically) only have to kill, say, three terits to get from Santa Monica to Downtown. The disadvantage, of course, is that someone puts a big honkin' army somewhere on the 10 East and creates the dreaded gridlock...
3. I don't think you need landmarks or any such, unless you were going to compact it further and go some sort of kitschy Maps of the Stars Homes sort of map. L.A. is a big tourist destination, but it seems to lack many of the traditional sorts of tourist spots like New York or Paris have. People go to Disneyland, the beach, and Hollywood, all of which could theoretically just be terits.

There's obviously geographical issues, but it seems more profitable at the moment to talk about large overarching concepts rather than nitty-gritty shit like that.
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby whitestazn88 on Mon May 12, 2008 1:03 pm

i'd like a landmark or two

well, just the big hollywood sign really

and i think that if you wanna do highways they have to have like 100000000 neutrals on them to show the traffic through LA lol

plus i'd like to thank you for adding pasadena. holla
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby bryguy on Mon May 12, 2008 1:04 pm

you could pull a DiM and have insane gameplay :mrgreen: no offense DiM
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby mibi on Mon May 12, 2008 1:31 pm

I'd like to see some freeways, its not LA with out a commute.
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby yeti_c on Mon May 12, 2008 1:39 pm

Gotta say - I like the sound of Inca's Freeways...

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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby TaCktiX on Mon May 12, 2008 1:51 pm

I fourth Incandenza's freeway initiative. It'd be an interesting, and city-appropriate twist to LA. Take NYC for example: when people think about getting around New York, they think subway. When people think about getting around LA...they think of massive gridlock on the interstates.
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby InkL0sed on Mon May 12, 2008 5:02 pm

TaCktiX wrote:I fourth Incandenza's freeway initiative. It'd be an interesting, and city-appropriate twist to LA. Take NYC for example: when people think about getting around New York, they think subway. When people think about getting around LA...they think of massive gridlock on the interstates.


Tack beat me to it. The subways were a stroke of genius on the NYC map, something you only fully realize once you play it. Something similar on this map would be great.

I also agree with Incandenza -- I think you should stick to the city itself. But take that opinion with a grain of salt -- I've never been to LA and have no idea what the actual city is.
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby Mjinga on Mon May 12, 2008 9:07 pm

I have and I'd agree with him too, especially if you put in freeways.
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby oaktown on Mon May 12, 2008 9:32 pm

Incandenza wrote:1. I think you could get rid of Orange and the San Gabriel Valley, compact the map, and have more detailed neighborhoods (like Los Feliz, Koreatown, Lincoln Heights, Mar Vista, Naples, etc.) Basically make it a "true" Los Angeles map, as opposed to a Los Angeles Greater Metropolitan Area map.

My concern about eliminating the valleys is that we'd be left with a big flat square with no impassables. Anyway, if we're going to include freeways - which I'm on board with - it makes more sense to me to keep the map stretched out and run them long distances... 101 and the 5 from the valley, the 10 running east west through everything. etc.

Incandenza wrote:2. Also, freeways were mentioned above, but I'd like to go into more detail about the concept: how about having the 101, 5, 405, 10, maybe the 605, 710, 105, etc, interspersed with onramps and the obvious interchanges. Then you could have one-way attacks on the freeways (in both directions: i.e. 101 North Silverlake would be able to attack 101 North Hollywood as well as 101 Hollywood Offramp, and 101 South Burbank would be able to attack 101 South Hollywood and 101 Hollywood Offramp, but 101 North Hollywood would NOT be able to attack 101 South Hollywood). It would be like a weird synthesis of a traditional geographic map like you have here and Circus Maximus (and it would be unlike anything else on the site). The advantage of the freeways is that you'd be able to (theoretically) only have to kill, say, three terits to get from Santa Monica to Downtown. The disadvantage, of course, is that someone puts a big honkin' army somewhere on the 10 East and creates the dreaded gridlock...

Gridlock on the 10? Never. (I fondly remember the day that I spent 20 minutes driving from downtown to UCLA, and two hours getting back.)

But yes, freeways could be fun. One way to go about this would be to make them separate territories, like NY; I'm not sure that this makes as much sense as it did with the New York subway, since that's a distinct underground system with its own stations, but it would give due power to the LA freeway system.

Another way to go would be to just run freeways through territories and give those territories special powers. You could give a bonus to holding all territories that link a freeway top to bottom. You could also allow freeway territories to do ranged attacks - say, you can attack neighboring territories as well as any territory that is two terits away via a freeway. Downtown LA and Burbank would then be able to attack each other by passing through Glendale on the freeway, even if you don't actually own Glendale. Thus nobody actually "owns" a stretch of freeway until you own the entire thing.

Incandenza wrote:3. I don't think you need landmarks or any such, unless you were going to compact it further and go some sort of kitschy Maps of the Stars Homes sort of map. L.A. is a big tourist destination, but it seems to lack many of the traditional sorts of tourist spots like New York or Paris have. People go to Disneyland, the beach, and Hollywood, all of which could theoretically just be terits.

Agreed. When it comes time to think about the graphics I intend to add fun stuff like the Hollywood sign, Watts Towers, and Space Mountain, but that'll just be gravy. :)
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby waiwai933 on Tue May 13, 2008 9:16 am

I live in La Canada, if you could maybe add that in. Otherwise, I agree with the "fun places" idea.
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby Incandenza on Tue May 13, 2008 7:33 pm

oaktown wrote:
Incandenza wrote:1. I think you could get rid of Orange and the San Gabriel Valley, compact the map, and have more detailed neighborhoods (like Los Feliz, Koreatown, Lincoln Heights, Mar Vista, Naples, etc.) Basically make it a "true" Los Angeles map, as opposed to a Los Angeles Greater Metropolitan Area map.

My concern about eliminating the valleys is that we'd be left with a big flat square with no impassables. Anyway, if we're going to include freeways - which I'm on board with - it makes more sense to me to keep the map stretched out and run them long distances... 101 and the 5 from the valley, the 10 running east west through everything. etc.


I'm thinking that, if graphically you could figure out a way to do over/underpasses, the freeways themselves could function as impassables... besides, you'd definitely want to keep the san fernando valley, plus there's always the LA river that could be used as an impassable.

I'm not opposed to having the san gabriel valley and OC (hell, I grew up in OC, and don't think I'm going to let you get away with calling that whole coastal bit "costa mesa" ;) ), but the freeways could conceptually take up quite a bit of space...

oaktown wrote:Gridlock on the 10? Never. (I fondly remember the day that I spent 20 minutes driving from downtown to UCLA, and two hours getting back.)

But yes, freeways could be fun. One way to go about this would be to make them separate territories, like NY; I'm not sure that this makes as much sense as it did with the New York subway, since that's a distinct underground system with its own stations, but it would give due power to the LA freeway system.


The way I envisioned it was that each chunk of freeway would be a terit, so you'd have direction freeway terits and ramp terits and interchange terits (which might start off neutral), freeways would be impassable save at under/overpasses.

oaktown wrote:Another way to go would be to just run freeways through territories and give those territories special powers. You could give a bonus to holding all territories that link a freeway top to bottom. You could also allow freeway territories to do ranged attacks - say, you can attack neighboring territories as well as any territory that is two terits away via a freeway. Downtown LA and Burbank would then be able to attack each other by passing through Glendale on the freeway, even if you don't actually own Glendale. Thus nobody actually "owns" a stretch of freeway until you own the entire thing.


That could work too.

oaktown wrote:Agreed. When it comes time to think about the graphics I intend to add fun stuff like the Hollywood sign, Watts Towers, and Space Mountain, but that'll just be gravy. :)


Nice. Hollywood sign definitely, and I love that you'll add the Watts Towers, an oft-neglected bit of LA history.
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby Bones2484 on Wed May 14, 2008 5:55 pm

The freeway idea that I read is brilliant. New York has it's subways... we have our freeways. You can probably include just the major freeways from the area. I'd suggest 5, 405, 10 (instead of the 91 and 210 since they all run the same direction through the same territories on the map above), 110, 57. If you add these in similarly to how the subways work in the New York map, you'd be able to take out the giant red arrows and have the freeways logically run through there instead.

Here's a map of our freeways if anyone needs it for reference: http://www.sigalert.com/map.asp?Region= ... os+Angeles

As far as your city choices, I like them. Ignore all the requests for city changes from people who want theirs up there (although I, too, don't like the "Great Highway" title). Anaheim and Westminster might be a little too big, Orange should probably come over at least half of that. Orange is a much larger city that shares a large border with Fullerton, remember that it goes all the way East past Villa Park towards Riverside, although you may have been thinking about Anaheim HILLS being that far east (two different cities). I would also recommend changing Yorba Linda to Brea and/or Diamond Bar and moving it North of Fullerton, as this is the only city choice I don't like, and having the connection to Riverside go through there instead of Fullerton (as that is where the 57 goes through).

I'm not too sure about South Orange County though. It just looks... weird. Tustin isn't in the right place (it is south of Santa Ana) and Irvine is much too large. Maybe you can put in Mission Viejo underneath Irvine in order to make that a 4 territory instead (which will help qualm some of the border issues you have).

I'd also probably refrain from putting in the tourist destination "bonuses" although it would be awesome to see some of the scenery built into the map (like the Hollywood sign, downtown). Disneyland/Angel Stadium/Dodger Stadium would be cool, but you may have to worry about copywrites.
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Re: Los Angeles (read post 1 for feedback request)

Postby oaktown on Thu May 15, 2008 12:28 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


And the Foundry said Let there be freeways, and there were freeways. I particularly pleased with my freeway shields.

Now, what the hell do we do with them?? I don't want to make them territories in the way that the subway stations are territories in the NYC map (it's bee done), but I would like some discussion as to how we can work them into gameplay, for example:
1) ranged attacks - every territory on a freeway can attack any connected freeway terit two terits away. Clever but confusing.
2) put occasional on-/off-ramps and say you can attack any ramp territory from any other ramp territory. Simple, but not realistic.
3) bonuses for holding the entire length of a freeway... would be hard to capture and hold, and would require color coding each freeway (easy to do at this point... note to self: multiple freeway layers, with the bottom layer being the outer glow only).
4) bonuses for holding contiguous sections of a freeway... e.g. +1 for three connected sections of the 10, +2 for four connected territories, etc. Would require color-coding each freeway, as well as making it more clear which territory each freeway passes through, as right now there are some muddy places (East LA for example). This is MY kind of idea - I love 'make-your-own-bonus' gameplay features on maps (see Berlin). :idea: =D>

Bones: thanks for the detailed input... the freeways you suggested were just what I was planning: 5, 405, 101, 10, 110, 57. I don't know if I've ever even been on the 57, but it connects that side of the map nicely. After reading your other suggestions I went and found myself a map of Orange County and completely redrew the borders. I removed Yorba Linda entirely as it didn't do much for gameplay, and replaced it by adding Newport Beach in South O.C. Irvine will become smaller as I add hill graphics around the entire map, and and Newport Beach needs to extend further into Irvine... I'm on it. Mission Viejo is off the map in my opinion, but i think that a three territory, three border +2 region would be appropriate down there, especially with all of the freeway options in that part of the map.

No army circles on this map - I might stick with the shields motif, or do something even more LA...

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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 2 with freeways!

Postby Bones2484 on Thu May 15, 2008 1:07 am

Those freeways looks awesome!!!! Great work. The only thing I'd suggest is having the 405 and 5 (but still have the 5 go through Tustin) cross in Irvine - since it does anyways! While I love (to hate) the 101, I'm not too sure how important it will be in the map upon viewing it drawn in. Might make it look less cluttered without it. I don't know how to work the freeways though, but I will be sure to check the thread a lot to offer suggestions/comments.

The one thing that worries me is how possible it will be to add so many additional territories on freeways on the map w/o making it ridiculous. Not to mention putting in army circles (especially in downtown). I thought your original idea a few posts back of allowing territories to attack multiple territories away on the same freeway (or going through an interchange) was awesome. You can even give freeways their own "movement speed". ie: Territories on the 10 can attack 2 away while territories on the 5 can attack 3 (like Calvary in Waterloo).

Speaking of which, great idea using stars for the army circles :)

Another suggestion I may make - as someone questioned Orange County maybe needing another entrance - would be to add Catalina Island as a non-bonus territory and have it two-way connect to Newport Beach, Long Beach, and San Pedro (which would be created at the end of the 110 by splitting Palos Verdes in half). Just a thought.


Keep up the good work!


edit: On second thought, I think the 101 needs to stay.
Last edited by Bones2484 on Thu May 15, 2008 1:38 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 2 with freeways!

Postby edbeard on Thu May 15, 2008 1:17 am

I agree that It'd be kinda cool to have the Y (where 405 and 5 meet). That adds another freeway connection for your connect parts of the freeway idea.

stars is also a great idea.

coming along nicely.
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 2 with freeways!

Postby bryguy on Thu May 15, 2008 9:16 am

yes do stars, or maybe stars with circles in the middle ;)
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 4 with mountains!

Postby oaktown on Tue May 20, 2008 12:46 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Cleaned some things up, made some things simpler, and spent a lot of time making mountains. I think they look quite nice. Oh, and some sample Army Stars. 8-)

Obviously the rest of the graphics haven't been brought up to speed - the regions look like shizzle - but let's talk more about the freeways and how they're going to work in this game.

If we're going to assign bonuses for portions of freeways, it really frees us up to do what we want with the regions. No longer do we need small regions that players can grab and hold early, because anything can become a small bonus - just string some freeway bits together and you're off to the races. If people like the freeway chunking idea I might like to:
• Restore Orange County to one big region
• Make one big region out of what should be LA proper - Mid City plus South Central could just become a Los Angeles City region. Bev Hills and Crenshaw could be brought together to eliminate one border (Wilshire would be protected).
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 4 with mountains!

Postby Bones2484 on Tue May 20, 2008 12:22 pm

I guess my question with the freeway bonus that you brought up would be what are the points of interchanges? If the bonus is only getting applied to territories along the same freeway then we aren't taking advantage off all the crossings. I can't even begin to imagine the confusion that would be caused by the territory per section of the freeway bonuses.

I still like your original idea of making it possible to attack along freeways a few set spaces away. We can even work "sig alerts" in to this and make some freeways "better" than others by allowing you to attack more spaces away. I'd love to see the 10 only allow 2 space attacks while the 57 (for example) can attack up to 4 away. Although I have to admit that I don't know how that would work after changing freeways at an interchange.

edit: I *love* the Hollywood sign in there by the way!
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 4 with mountains!

Postby bryguy on Tue May 20, 2008 1:39 pm

The mountains look great oak!


1) with the title in the upper left, i think u should move the palm tree up there also
2) I like the stars instead of circles, although in some places your gonna have to have them a littler darker/lighter
3) Maybe having bonuses for holding an entire freeway?
4) Are u gonna have territory lines along the edges of the colors? cause right now u dont...
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 4 with mountains!

Postby Unit_2 on Tue May 20, 2008 2:03 pm

Not LAX, M13
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 4 with mountains!

Postby oaktown on Tue May 20, 2008 2:28 pm

Bones2484 wrote:I guess my question with the freeway bonus that you brought up would be what are the points of interchanges? If the bonus is only getting applied to territories along the same freeway then we aren't taking advantage off all the crossings. I can't even begin to imagine the confusion that would be caused by the territory per section of the freeway bonuses.

I still like your original idea of making it possible to attack along freeways a few set spaces away.

Agreed - it would be fun to bring in to play the ranged attacks, but we'll have to be careful about this - there are so many freeways it could really wreak havoc on gameplay. And it seems odd that you can leapfrog somebody else's territory to attack at a distance, but I guess that's the way freeways work - you only really "control" the freeway when you have three consecutive chunks of it.

As it is the interchange territories are still important because each one contributes to multiple bonuses... if you hold downtown you can go two spaces in any direction and wrap up an easy +1.

Bones2484 wrote:We can even work "sig alerts" in to this and make some freeways "better" than others by allowing you to attack more spaces away. I'd love to see the 10 only allow 2 space attacks while the 57 (for example) can attack up to 4 away. Although I have to admit that I don't know how that would work after changing freeways at an interchange.

I'm not sure how this would work either... hmm... maybe better to keep this one simple - any freeway can be clogged up, though the 101 is always a mess in my opinion.

Bones2484 wrote:edit: I *love* the Hollywood sign in there by the way!

gosh, thanks! There will be more fun stuff like that with each new version, I hope. Any requests? I was thinking Watts Towers might be next.
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 4 with mountains!

Postby Bones2484 on Tue May 20, 2008 2:58 pm

oaktown wrote:gosh, thanks! There will be more fun stuff like that with each new version, I hope. Any requests? I was thinking Watts Towers might be next.


My personal request would be the Big A along the 57 in Orange. http://www.flickr.com/photos/trainman/32819226/
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 3 with mountains!

Postby mibi on Tue May 20, 2008 3:25 pm

those mountain wreak havoc with the perspective.
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 3 with mountains!

Postby Incandenza on Tue May 20, 2008 5:02 pm

A few quick things, in no particular order:
How about holding an extra bonus for an interchange? Maybe downtown (the four-level) starts neutral, but it's worth +1 and counts as a freeway terit for each of the relevant freeways?

I like the concept of sigalerts, but I don't see how it could be practiced, save by using neutrals in key areas. Besides, any one of those freeways can be an absolute clusterfucked nightmare depending on the time of day (just try getting from work on the westside to anaheim in time for a 7:05 first pitch... it's enough to make you want to blow your brains out)

Ranged attacks along freeways seems like the best bet to make freeways an integral part of the gameplay (rather than just a parallel bonus structure), given that the platonic ideal of freeways is, of course, moving quickly through an area. This would add to the importance of interchanges. I'd say keeping the ranged attacks at 2 across the board might be the simplest way to go.

You might want to rename Wilshire Blvd. to Mid-Wilshire or Miracle Mile.

I agree with mibi that the perspective of the mountains (especially around the SF and SG Valleys) is a bit rough, but I know it's just a first draft, so not a big deal at this point.
Obviously Silverlake (I always thought it was one word, but wikipedia just proved me wrong) is going to be a tight fit when it comes to placing an army circle.

The 'd' in Marina del Rey should be uncapitalized.

Hawthorne is misspelled.

Love the Hollywood sign . Other potential attractions: the Big A (as already mentioned), the Santa Monica Pier, the Rose Bowl (Pasadena), the Getty (in the mountains along the 405), the Matterhorn... and don't forget Inc's Pimpin' Bachelor Pad (Hollywood). :D

By and large, comin' along nicely, good sir.
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Re: Los Angeles - update pg 3 with mountains!

Postby oaktown on Tue May 20, 2008 6:42 pm

mibi wrote:those mountain wreak havoc with the perspective.


Right... the mountains actually achieve the perspective I'd like to ultimately give to this map: looking in as if from the air, like a tourist postcard. It's everything else I need to work on.

The Big A? As an A's fan the idea makes me shudder. I was kinda thinking I'd put Space Mountain in Anaheim, but I could be persuaded to give a nod to the L.A. A-of-A's. :lol:

Don't think I've left space for Dodger Stadium either.

As noted, Silver Lake is clearly too small. It might be dropped completely, especially if we can lump Mid-City and South Central together in as one region... the idea wold be to shorten Wilshire (which would make sense to change it to Miracle Mile) and possibly create another non-border territory.
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