[Abandoned] - Trench Warfare!

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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:20 pm

I request (as prior done in other, less public ways) that you change the title. For one, I don't think Trench Warfare is the right title for this map. It's less based on WWI trenches as it is on WWII stalemates a la Stalingrad. For two, my map of the same name (sans exclamation point) is not an abandoned project and I will be picking it back up in the near future (I would estimate September of this year). My map doesn't work with any other title without short-changing the very idea it is based on.

Other than that, I really like the start of this map. Even with the numerous "d'oh, XML no do that yet" stuff, I hope it cruises through the foundry quickly.
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby mibi on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:33 am

TaCktiX wrote:I request (as prior done in other, less public ways) that you change the title. For one, I don't think Trench Warfare is the right title for this map. It's less based on WWI trenches as it is on WWII stalemates a la Stalingrad. For two, my map of the same name (sans exclamation point) is not an abandoned project and I will be picking it back up in the near future (I would estimate September of this year). My map doesn't work with any other title without short-changing the very idea it is based on.

Other than that, I really like the start of this map. Even with the numerous "d'oh, XML no do that yet" stuff, I hope it cruises through the foundry quickly.


TaCtiX, sorry for not getting back to you privately, I've been busy and stuff. It seems we have a predicament. Your was started first back in March, however this map is far more developed. I don't think this map has anything to do with WW2 stalemates in Stalingrad. By the end of WW1 both sides had dug over 12,000 miles of trenches, it was the epitome of stalemate, particularly on the Western front. This map explores that stalemate mindset and really embodies trench warfare before things got out of hand later on with tanks and air support.

Your map which will require another extensive graphic overhaul is more complicated and involves four opposing fronts fighting around a hill, which really has nothing to do with WW1 even though the mustard gas, tanks and bi-planes are all from that era. What I suggest for you TaCtiX is to take your mechanics and redevelop the map to be a localized version of a WW1 battle. The Battle of Somme perhaps.

Regardless, "Trench Warfare!" is the most appropriate name for this map and will remain the title.
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby bryguy on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:27 am

Looks nice! some comments and questions tho


1) How do you get to the allied and german orders?
2) Where are the foxholes? are they the single square trenches?
3) Where exactly can the machine guns attack? you show a little diagram, but its not very clear, say i have the L3 machine gun, am i aloud to attack k2 and j1 and k4 and j5 and k3 and j3 only? or am i aloud to bombard more?
4) the no mans land thing is confusing also
5) i dont care for some of the numbers on the top. 9 and 5 look suspiciously alike. Why not just, for 9, copy 6, flip it upside down, and flip it horizontally? that way 5 and 9 dont look so alike
6) could you make the mini-90degree-diagram less blurry?


keep up the good work!
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:56 pm

bryguy wrote:1) How do you get to the allied and german orders?


From the instructions: "Bunkers: +3 autodeploy, can attack corresponding orders"

bryguy wrote:2) Where are the foxholes? are they the single square trenches?


Yes.

bryguy wrote:3) Where exactly can the machine guns attack? you show a little diagram, but its not very clear, say i have the L3 machine gun, am i aloud to attack k2 and j1 and k4 and j5 and k3 and j3 only? or am i aloud to bombard more?


The arrows on the ends of the diagram would imply that the machine guns can bombard far more than just the immediately adjacent squares. However, I've added a more detailed visualization of the machine gun ranges to the first post.

bryguy wrote:4) the no mans land thing is confusing also


How so?

bryguy wrote:6) could you make the mini-90degree-diagram less blurry?


In what way do you find it blurry?
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:04 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Other than that, I really like the start of this map. Even with the numerous "d'oh, XML no do that yet" stuff, I hope it cruises through the foundry quickly.


I'm glad you like it. Thankfully, this is a rather protracted process, giving us lots of time for the site's XML to be updated.
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby RjBeals on Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:08 pm

Jeez.. I wasn't expecting that as a first look. Fantastic guys. =D> =D> I'm jealous mibi.
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby bryguy on Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:10 pm

Incandenza wrote:
bryguy wrote:4) the no mans land thing is confusing also


How so?

bryguy wrote:6) could you make the mini-90degree-diagram less blurry?


In what way do you find it blurry?


for 4

nvm, i understand it now

for 6

the arrows and the letters are fine, but the background is all blurry. Like for example the machine guns. The machine guns on the map have nice, solid borders. On the mini-thing, it has blurred borders.
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Androidz on Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:27 pm

Androidz wrote:Suggestions:

Tittle:

Could you try adding some more dirt or blood dripping from the tittle giveing it a more OldWarish look? RIght now it looks like "Happy Zone

Trenches:

Maybe the trenches should be connected somehow like the pictures Widow posted with nonehitable deepduged holes. With 1 ways attacks?

Little ArmySoldiers? Behind the cannons our in the trenches? i dont know how that would look.


Bump, even tough you dont like suggestion pliss say no so i know you didint overlook it:D
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:01 pm

Androidz wrote:Bump, even tough you dont like suggestion pliss say no so i know you didint overlook it:D


Fair enough. :D

Androidz wrote:Could you try adding some more dirt or blood dripping from the tittle giveing it a more OldWarish look? RIght now it looks like "Happy Zone


Blood seems a bit over the top, but a bit o' grunge doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Androidz wrote:Maybe the trenches should be connected somehow like the pictures Widow posted with nonehitable deepduged holes. With 1 ways attacks?


Wellllll... I'm not sure what you mean by "nonehitable deepduged holes", do you mean trenches that can't be hit by artillery? or can't be hit via conventional attack?

Also, with the gameplay setup as it currently is, there have to be spaces between the trenches to make ground attack across No Man's Land feasible. Otherwise there'd be no strategy to fortifying your own zone, you just let the guys in the trenches keep piling up. With gaps in the trenches, I could bombard your exposed terits with mortar fire, make a run across No Man's Land, bypass your trenches, and hit your bunker and disrupt your bombardment and reinforcements, which is much like the strategy used by the Germans at Cadorna in 1917 and during the last-ditch 1918 offensives on the Western Front.

Androidz wrote:Little ArmySoldiers? Behind the cannons our in the trenches? i dont know how that would look.


mibi mentioned earlier that he's going to add more detail to the trenches, but given the top-down view, I think that adding people would look weird and potentially clutter the map...
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Androidz on Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:22 pm

Incandenza wrote:
Androidz wrote:Could you try adding some more dirt or blood dripping from the tittle giveing it a more OldWarish look? RIght now it looks like "Happy Zone[/quote
]

Blood seems a bit over the top, but a bit o' grunge doesn't sound like a bad idea.


Great:D

Incandenza wrote:
Androidz wrote:Maybe the trenches should be connected somehow like the pictures Widow posted with nonehitable deepduged holes. With 1 ways attacks?


Wellllll... I'm not sure what you mean by "nonehitable deepduged holes", do you mean trenches that can't be hit by artillery? or can't be hit via conventional attack?


Also, with the gameplay setup as it currently is, there have to be spaces between the trenches to make ground attack across No Man's Land feasible. Otherwise there'd be no strategy to fortifying your own zone, you just let the guys in the trenches keep piling up. With gaps in the trenches, I could bombard your exposed terits with mortar fire, make a run across No Man's Land, bypass your trenches, and hit your bunker and disrupt your bombardment and reinforcements, which is much like the strategy used by the Germans at Cadorna in 1917 and during the last-ditch 1918 offensives on the Western Front.[/quote]

some of those Trenches should be connected in the so its easyer to reach the artellery. And they cant be hit by artellery ofc but i get what your saying.

Androidz wrote:Little ArmySoldiers? Behind the cannons our in the trenches? i dont know how that would look.


mibi mentioned earlier that he's going to add more detail to the trenches, but given the top-down view, I think that adding people would look weird and potentially clutter the map...[/quote]

kk, i got no doubt that mibi will give us something amazing:D
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby mibi on Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:26 am

some of those Trenches should be connected in the so its easyer to reach the artellery. And they cant be hit by artellery ofc but i get what your saying.


Well no player should go for the artillery, mortars, or reinforcements until they have complete control over their side of the trenches. It would be suicide to call in some 'orders' before you were ready.
Last edited by mibi on Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Androidz on Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:35 am

mibi wrote:[quote=Androidz]some of those Trenches should be connected in the so its easyer to reach the artellery. And they cant be hit by artellery ofc but i get what your saying.


Well no player should go for the artillery, mortars, or reinforcements until they have complete control over their side of the trenches. It would be suicide to call in some 'orders' before you were ready.[/quote]

Even so it gives players option to try new things. new strategies...
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby mibi on Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:04 am

Androidz wrote:
Even so it gives players option to try new things. new strategies...


There are already many strategies to employ and all of them relate to the psychology and mechanics of trench warfare. We have to be careful when adding 'historical accuracy' that it doesn't ruin the psychology and game play and turn the map into something that is not really trench warfare.
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Androidz on Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:14 am

mibi wrote:
Androidz wrote:
Even so it gives players option to try new things. new strategies...


There are already many strategies to employ and all of them relate to the psychology and mechanics of trench warfare. We have to be careful when adding 'historical accuracy' that it doesn't ruin the psychology and game play and turn the map into something that is not really trench warfare.


Still trenches was connected during that time, avoiding stepping on the top were they would be slaughtered like flies by the machineguns.


Now i get what you say but i getting the feeling that its nearly impossible to reach those arteillries since you must attack 8 terretories or so to reach them and you will be kiced back easly.

If that wont happen can explain me why pliss?
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:15 pm

Androidz wrote:Still trenches was connected during that time, avoiding stepping on the top were they would be slaughtered like flies by the machineguns.

Now i get what you say but i getting the feeling that its nearly impossible to reach those arteillries since you must attack 8 terretories or so to reach them and you will be kiced back easly.

If that wont happen can explain me why pliss?


As always, if you go in with enough forces, you'll be able to knock out the orders, do some damage, and still have enough troops in reserve to maintain your foothold. And since deployments will be so low in any case, it will be the work of a couple turns (more if chained or adjacent forts) for the attacked player to get his house back in order.

The main point here is that having gaps between the trenches gives people more options, more chances to make strategic decisions. They can attack a trench head-on, they can slip around the side, they can bombard the crap out of it with artillery (once they get past the big honkin' neutral) and follow up with a smaller force, they can attack the bunker and the orders, etc. Plus it gives the defender more options, rather than just letting the autodeploy build up in the trenches.

Having trenches connect all the way across eliminates quite a few options on both sides of the equation and makes an attack across No Man's Land far less likely to succeed, which is not a good thing for the gameplay here. Successful trench warfare wasn't about just flinging brute force at the problem... :D
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Androidz on Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:23 pm

Incandenza wrote:
Androidz wrote:Still trenches was connected during that time, avoiding stepping on the top were they would be slaughtered like flies by the machineguns.

Now i get what you say but i getting the feeling that its nearly impossible to reach those arteillries since you must attack 8 terretories or so to reach them and you will be kiced back easly.

If that wont happen can explain me why pliss?


As always, if you go in with enough forces, you'll be able to knock out the orders, do some damage, and still have enough troops in reserve to maintain your foothold. And since deployments will be so low in any case, it will be the work of a couple turns (more if chained or adjacent forts) for the attacked player to get his house back in order.

The main point here is that having gaps between the trenches gives people more options, more chances to make strategic decisions. They can attack a trench head-on, they can slip around the side, they can bombard the crap out of it with artillery (once they get past the big honkin' neutral) and follow up with a smaller force, they can attack the bunker and the orders, etc. Plus it gives the defender more options, rather than just letting the autodeploy build up in the trenches.

Having trenches connect all the way across eliminates quite a few options on both sides of the equation and makes an attack across No Man's Land far less likely to succeed, which is not a good thing for the gameplay here. Successful trench warfare wasn't about just flinging brute force at the problem... :D


Thx for answear:D
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:18 pm

Ok, I've been waiting for both trench maps.

Quibble! If you're going to generalize one side, you should generalize both. I.E. If you name one side 'allied' then the other should be 'axis.'

Let's not single the Germans out here!
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby pepperonibread on Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:31 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Ok, I've been waiting for both trench maps.

Quibble! If you're going to generalize one side, you should generalize both. I.E. If you name one side 'allied' then the other should be 'axis.'

Let's not single the Germans out here!


I don't think the Germans were called the Axis in WW1... they should be the "Central Powers".
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:02 pm

True, the Germans were part of the Central Powers, but they were also the only ones fighting on the Western Front, whereas French, British, and American forces opposed them. Thus, Allies and Germans. :D
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby gimil on Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:09 am

My first impressions are that for a mibi map im a little disappointed. the battle feild is much to plan and unexciting. There needs to be more carnage, trouble and mess! Right now I jsut think, "plowed field".
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby asl80 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:21 am

good start, looks good.
haven't read the discussion so far, but i'll judt drop a couple along the way.
- can you attack in and out of the machine guns etc.? or just bombard ... as it says.
- maybe artillary shouldn't be able to bombard territories near it self, would be a little odd that an artillary could open fire on it's own front.
- can mortar's attack the bunkers?, this would be a little strange if the supposedly stronger artillary couldn't (i assume not the orders)
- i support keeping or increasing the value of these high powered weapons ... mortar poss. neutral 50., give some time to capture and hold the trenches.
- the 90o setup on the machine guns is great
- the auto deploy on the trenches is good too.

graphics;
- surely things were a little muddy on the field ... i suggest lightening things up, more browns(lighter) more mud
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby mibi on Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:20 am

asl80 wrote:good start, looks good.
haven't read the discussion so far, but i'll judt drop a couple along the way.
- can you attack in and out of the machine guns etc.? or just bombard ... as it says.
just bombard, there are sandbags there so its a bit cumbersome to attack over them.
- maybe artillary shouldn't be able to bombard territories near it self, would be a little odd that an artillary could open fire on it's own front.
sometimes, tough decisions are made when one is overwhelmed, bombard your own front, sure if thats what needs to be done.
- can mortar's attack the bunkers?, this would be a little strange if the supposedly stronger artillary couldn't (i assume not the orders)
no, motars cannot, however the artillery CAN
- i support keeping or increasing the value of these high powered weapons ... mortar poss. neutral 50., give some time to capture and hold the trenches.
well its balance, if they are too high, then people woudl just run across the trench rather than build for the better weapons, so you want to place them within reach at around the point when its a tough decision to go for them or not.
- the 90o setup on the machine guns is great
- the auto deploy on the trenches is good too.

graphics;
- surely things were a little muddy on the field ... i suggest lightening things up, more browns(lighter) more mud

cool
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby t-o-m on Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:28 am

Looks great!
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby hulmey on Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:45 am

Incandenza wrote:True, the Germans were part of the Central Powers, but they were also the only ones fighting on the Western Front, whereas French, British, and American forces opposed them. Thus, Allies and Germans. :D


The Central power were Germany and Austria-Hungary forces. The allies were mainly France, England and Russia. USA joined the was in late 1917 and hardly mae a contribution to it!!! Russia lost over 1,200,000 troops whilst america lost only 150,00!
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Re: Trench Warfare! -- mibi's latest -- First Look & FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:55 pm

hulmey wrote:
Incandenza wrote:True, the Germans were part of the Central Powers, but they were also the only ones fighting on the Western Front, whereas French, British, and American forces opposed them. Thus, Allies and Germans. :D


The Central power were Germany and Austria-Hungary forces. The allies were mainly France, England and Russia. USA joined the was in late 1917 and hardly mae a contribution to it!!! Russia lost over 1,200,000 troops whilst america lost only 150,00!


While the part I bolded is debatable, my original point was that only certain of the combatants participated in what we think of as "true" trench warfare, as practiced on the Western front. And since this map is somewhat of an abstraction of a tactical trench situation, and not a recreation of a particular battle, "Allies" and "Germans" makes the most sense.
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