[Abandoned] - Trench Warfare!

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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:16 pm

I'm thinkin' maybe you need more shell holes? There aren't even any behind the red lines!
Also, maybe make one of the Red Lines Blue or something?
I don't know, there isn't much here to criticize.... the map is exactly what it's supposed to be.....
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby mibi on Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:20 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:I'm thinkin' maybe you need more shell holes? There aren't even any behind the red lines!
Also, maybe make one of the Red Lines Blue or something?
I don't know, there isn't much here to criticize.... the map is exactly what it's supposed to be.....


Behind enemy lines and you have the trenches, no need for shell holes.

And yeah, there isn't much to criticize, Incadenza and I shot several drafts back and forth ironing out most of the issues before we posted the first draft. Which is probably why this map will sit in the stagnant waters for a while.

When in the foundry...
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:02 pm

mibi wrote:Behind enemy lines and you have the trenches, no need for shell holes.

I was talkin realizm. There's no way shells only fell in No Mans Land. Certianly they were shooting for the trenches too, so they must have even overshot them... I'm not saying shell holes for cover or anything, just for style...

mibi wrote:And yeah, there isn't much to criticize, Incadenza and I shot several drafts back and forth ironing out most of the issues before we posted the first draft. Which is probably why this map will sit in the stagnant waters for a while.
:lol: :x :(
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:33 pm

Could you provide a clearer explanation of which territories are fox holes, trenches, and bunkers? That detail is confusing me. They are all the same thing to me.
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:55 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
mibi wrote:Behind enemy lines and you have the trenches, no need for shell holes.

I was talkin realizm. There's no way shells only fell in No Mans Land. Certianly they were shooting for the trenches too, so they must have even overshot them... I'm not saying shell holes for cover or anything, just for style...


Given that the foxholes are playable important terits, I can't imagine we'd want to overdo it putting shell craters on basic terits in the front sections. Might be confusing, especially given:

wcaclimbing wrote:Could you provide a clearer explanation of which territories are fox holes, trenches, and bunkers? That detail is confusing me. They are all the same thing to me.


Are you requesting some sort of visual representation in the legend? For the record, the foxholes are the hollowed-out craters in No Man's Land, the trenches are the connected terits with wood shoring that appear in either front and in NML, and bunkers are the grey, well, bunkers.

cairnswk wrote:1. Machine guns - how far can they fire forward, how many cells in the forward range.


Thanks for your comments cairns. Your other graphics suggestions I'm sure have been seen by mibi, but this one's an easy one that I can answer: the machine guns bombard outward to the far end of No Man's Land in the 90-degree arc shown in the wee graphic in the legend.

Reposted from the Page 1 FAQ:
Q: Inc, I'm still not 100% sure what the machine guns can and cannot bombard. Can you help me out?
A: Sure thing. Here is the range for the Allied center machine gun. Here are the ranges for the Allied side machine guns. Obviously the German machine guns would bombard in the same fashion.
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:15 pm

Incandenza wrote:...
cairnswk wrote:1. Machine guns - how far can they fire forward, how many cells in the forward range.


Thanks for your comments cairns. Your other graphics suggestions I'm sure have been seen by mibi, but this one's an easy one that I can answer: the machine guns bombard outward to the far end of No Man's Land in the 90-degree arc shown in the wee graphic in the legend.

Reposted from the Page 1 FAQ:
Q: Inc, I'm still not 100% sure what the machine guns can and cannot bombard. Can you help me out?
A: Sure thing. Here is the range for the Allied center machine gun. Here are the ranges for the Allied side machine guns. Obviously the German machine guns would bombard in the same fashion.


Thanks Incadenza....obviously something in the legend didn't click that it would be to the end of no man's land....and i guess if i was someone looking at that for the first time i would have to find that out from the xml/BOB....can the text be adjusted to say "forward to opposite end of no man's land" or something similar to make it clearer.
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:08 pm

cairnswk wrote:Thanks Incadenza....obviously something in the legend didn't click that it would be to the end of no man's land....and i guess if i was someone looking at that for the first time i would have to find that out from the xml/BOB....can the text be adjusted to say "forward to opposite end of no man's land" or something similar to make it clearer.


Hmmmmmmm... space is a bit at a premium in the legend, but I'll see what I can do:

Current text:
Machine Guns: +2 autodeploy, only bombards No Man's Land in a 90 degree range as shown below. Cannot bombard foxholes or trenches.
*graphic*

What if it were as simple as throwing an "all" in there: +2 autodeploy, only bombards all No Man's Land in a 90 degree range as shown below. Cannot bombard foxholes or trenches.

Even that, tho... the "all" seems to contradict the whole trenches and foxholes thing.

Another possibility would be : +2 autodeploy, only bombards No Man's Land in a 90 degree range to far side. Cannot bombard foxholes or trenches.

That way the "far side" concept is worked in, at the cost of losing the "as shown below", tho given that the range is shown below, perhaps it's redundant.

I dunno, cairns, either of those work for you?

Personally, I think some of the confusion comes in with the fact that the mini-graphic, by its very nature, can only show a few of the possible bombardment targets. But given the fact that the instructions clearly state bombardments, the 90-degree range thing, and can't bombard foxholes or trenches (especially since no trenches would be in range if you assumed the machine guns only had a 2-terit range) and also given that it's never explicitly said that machine guns have a 2-terit range, maybe we're overthinking this.

Of course, given that you're not the first to ask about the machine guns, we're certainly open to ideas. :D
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby yeti_c on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:02 am

Don't need Far Side - you've already said it can only bombard "no mans land".

BTW - the Command structure is the most important of all - as you can use that to create a path of 1's in the neutrals - before "going over the top".

Also - with the trenches looking like they do - it kindof appears like you can't attack forward out of them... perhaps some ladder graphics to show that you can attack any direction you please?

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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:03 pm

yeti_c wrote:Don't need Far Side - you've already said it can only bombard "no mans land".


I agree, but since cairns ain't the first person to express confusion over the machine guns, I'm at least open to the possibility that the instructions can be worded differently... of course, the map is of sufficient complexity that not every possible permutation of misunderstanding will be covered, but given that even recently people were posting in the waterloo thread about not being able to fort off of artillery, I'm confident that there's some wiggle room there.

yeti_c wrote:BTW - the Command structure is the most important of all - as you can use that to create a path of 1's in the neutrals - before "going over the top".


DON'T BE GIVIN' AWAY THE STRATEGY! :D
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby ZeakCytho on Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:06 pm

What if you dropped column 13 to give the legend space a bit more room? Or, if you want to keep things symetrical, drop 1 and 13, though that will really affect the size of the board.
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:48 pm

ZeakCytho wrote:What if you dropped column 13 to give the legend space a bit more room? Or, if you want to keep things symetrical, drop 1 and 13, though that will really affect the size of the board.


That would be a pretty drastic move. There's sound gameplay reasons for having the gaps between the trenches and the edge of the map. And no determination has been made that the machine gun instructions will be rewritten in the first place, so let's not be hasty. :D
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Emperor_Metalman on Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:30 pm

What is the purpose of the territories in the orders area
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:13 pm

Emperor_Metalman wrote:What is the purpose of the territories in the orders area


Your answer is contained in the legend, but to recap:
Mortar bombards the opposing front save for trenches
Reinforcements give you 10 armies/turn autodeployment
Artillery bombards the whole board save for bunkers
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby hulmey on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:37 pm

Just a quick thought! I'd like to see the "allies and "germans" sides graphically distinguised in some way. It would look great seeing the Black eagle flying over the german side and would lend a fell of Us agianst them :D
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:55 pm

hulmey wrote:Just a quick thought! I'd like to see the "allies and "germans" sides graphically distinguised in some way. It would look great seeing the Black eagle flying over the german side and would lend a fell of Us agianst them :D


The first draft posted actually had wee flags on the bunkers, but here's the problem: which flag do you use for the Allies? :-k

(plus, IMO, they looked rather out of place on a generally earth-tones map)
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:07 pm

How about two generic colored flags? Blue and black?
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby mibi on Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:13 pm

Changes:

1. red line is a little more transparent.
2. All the bunkers are lined with wood. Cairns mentioned that some needed extra wood and someone else said it looked like you couldn't attack out of them because of their configuration, so now they all totally lined with wood, making the issue of travelling in and out a bit moot.
3. extra pixels at the bottom of the legend.
4. The machine gun graphic is changed to a farther zoomed out version, I don't know if this is any clearer. I am not a huge fan of it.

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:28 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:How about two generic colored flags? Blue and black?


Why? They'd be generic and thus devoid of information. In that case, why bother?
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:38 am

Incandenza wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:How about two generic colored flags? Blue and black?


Why? They'd be generic and thus devoid of information. In that case, why bother?


I don't figgin' know. It's a pretty map and I'm just trying to keep the conversation going......
It would be nice though to know what side you're representing....
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Re: Trench Warfare! NEW DRAFT Page 1 & 3, FAQ Page 1

Postby Incandenza on Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:43 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Incandenza wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:How about two generic colored flags? Blue and black?


Why? They'd be generic and thus devoid of information. In that case, why bother?


I don't figgin' know. It's a pretty map and I'm just trying to keep the conversation going......
It would be nice though to know what side you're representing....


Fair enough... :D

But like I said, that''s why the "German Front" and "Allied Front" are there.
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Re: Trench Warfare! V3 Page 1/6, FAQ Page 1

Postby wcaclimbing on Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:04 pm

I still don't know the difference between a bunker and a trench.
I'd like it if that was clarified for those of us (including me) that have absolutely no idea what names go with which parts of the battlefield....
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Re: Trench Warfare! V3 Page 1/6, FAQ Page 1

Postby ZeakCytho on Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:07 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:I still don't know the difference between a bunker and a trench.
I'd like it if that was clarified for those of us (including me) that have absolutely no idea what names go with which parts of the battlefield....


The bunkers are the grey buildings - there's one on each side of the map. The trenches are the things dug into the ground in each of the fronts. The foxholes are the things dug into the ground in no-man's land.
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Re: Trench Warfare! V3 Page 1/6, FAQ Page 1

Postby t-o-m on Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:13 pm

Just looking at this excites me, think of doubles freestlye on a speed game.
One would take the defending bombard position and the other would go out and attack (kill themselves to the machine guns)
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Re: Trench Warfare! V3 Page 1/6, FAQ Page 1

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:55 am

I have a question about the size of the squares. This map encourages build-up, and gives out huge bonuses.

So my question is:
Is there enough space in those squares to fit 100,000 side by side by side?
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Re: Trench Warfare! V3 Page 1/6, FAQ Page 1

Postby wcaclimbing on Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 pm

here you go, good luck with the map.
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Now one of the CAs needs to move this thread to the main foundry.
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