Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V13 (p7) - legend details adjusted

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:13 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:What are ships not marked L# or MS#? :?

Landing Craft L1-13
or Mine Sweepers MS1-7
I'm sorry to have to say this, but don't you guys ever read a map?
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V13 (p7) - legend details adjusted

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:18 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:What are ships not marked L# or MS#? :?

Battleships, I believe. Though cairns should clarify.

Are not the battleships marked BS?

I'm not so sure about the squiggly lines, though they are better than nothing ;)

What squiggly lines are you referring to?

What does the white line going through the center do? I'll wait for the next graphical update to really tear at it :P
.44


captainwalrus wrote:...Impassibles still need to be made into something.


That is a road, and yes i need to clarify that. :)
But i would prefer that you tear into it now before i do the next update, because i am still searching for something suitable to use for the imapssables... :)
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V13

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:19 pm

Version 13.
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V13 (p7) - legend details adjusted

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:39 pm

cairnswk wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:What are ships not marked L# or MS#? :?

Landing Craft L1-13
or Mine Sweepers MS1-7
I'm sorry to have to say this, but don't you guys ever read a map?


Sorry, i'm still confused.
You're saying :

- (per turn autodeploy) each convoy landing ship held (not marked l# or MS#) +2


If i try to search a ship NOT marked L# or MS# there are only BS.(and i don't think you are going to give them a -2 bonus and a +2 bonus in the same time. )
I assure you that i have read the map :roll:

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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V13 (p7) - legend details adjusted

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:20 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:What are ships not marked L# or MS#? :?

Landing Craft L1-13
or Mine Sweepers MS1-7
I'm sorry to have to say this, but don't you guys ever read a map?


Sorry, i'm still confused.
You're saying :

- (per turn autodeploy) each convoy landing ship held (not marked l# or MS#) +2


If i try to search a ship NOT marked L# or MS# there are only BS.(and i don't think you are going to give them a -2 bonus and a +2 bonus in the same time. )
I assure you that i have read the map :roll:


Oh dear :oops: :oops:
What can i say, but i'm tired after having to reformat and reload the entire C Drive just to get Illustrator to take...24 hours later...
I'm sorry theonebodies [-o< [-o< yes you have read the map - it is me who doesn't even know what he's got on his map...
I knew as soon as i wrote that comment it would come back to bite me bigtime and it did!! But i was too tired to edit it.
it was a reference to vessels that are no longer there, and it has to be sorted...somehow...another day.
Time for bed i think, and i need someone to cut the barbed wire on my tongue also, and then rinse my mouth out with soap. :(
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V13 (p7) - legend details adjusted

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:56 pm

cairnswk wrote:...and i need someone to cut the barbed wire on my tongue also, and then rinse my mouth out with soap. :(

i think it's better... :|
I apologize for having asked for a clarification or interfered in any way to the development of your map.

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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V13 (p7) - legend details adjusted

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:02 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:...and i need someone to cut the barbed wire on my tongue also, and then rinse my mouth out with soap. :(

i think it's better... :|
I apologize for having asked for a clarification or interfered in any way to the development of your map.

Why are you apologising for asking for clarification on the map?
It is i who have apologised to you for being so nasty and bitter of tongue through being tired.
You have not interferred with the development of the map?
It is I who has been tartdy in my response to your questions.
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V13 (p7) - legend details adjusted

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:07 pm

cairnswk wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:...and i need someone to cut the barbed wire on my tongue also, and then rinse my mouth out with soap. :(

i think it's better... :|
I apologize for having asked for a clarification or interfered in any way to the development of your map.

Why are you apologising for asking for clarification on the map?
It is i who have apologised to you for being so nasty and bitter of tongue through being tired.
You have not interferred with the development of the map?
It is I who has been tartdy in my response to your questions.


okay, maybe i'm a but tired....and i had to go sleep before going on this thread.....
sorry if i misunderstood...i thought you was sarcastic.

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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V14

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:33 pm

Version 14

clarification on the roads and that bonus

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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V14 (p8) - legend details adjusted

Postby the.killing.44 on Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:00 pm

Okay then :)

Legend
The squiggly lines I was referring to are the ones that separate the sections of the legend. Now that I look at it more I think it does fit the rest of the map.

"turn neutral per turn" sounds a bit awkward with the double usage of both kinds of "turn." Perhaps if we used something like "turn back to neutral per round" it would be better? (By the by it's per round not turn, though I know what you were implying.)

As stated in PM, the blur of the battleship at the top is a bit unnerving to the eye…

The rest looks nice, the convoy landing ships are the L# and MS#, correct?

Impassable Borders
Hmm, after looking at the landscape of the area I can only really suggest sand dunes or rocky cliff-type walls…

Road
Pretty good, just a small thought but a black or dark brown stroke would be more apparent and road-like? Also, though it is pretty obvious, it could be better both from a gameplay and graphic perspective to have some sort of "checkpoint" where the villages meet the towns, if it's only something that looks like a bridge? I don't think "checkpoint" is the right word for it but just something to note that there is a connection ;)

Seamine & Fort Icons
Forts look good, they're both subject to the same question — why are the lines dotted? Also, I noticed that the seamines you have on the legend are filled in with a light blue whilst the map's ones are transparent — I think the light blue ones look better. As an added bonus, the fill would cover up the dotted lines that currently run through the circles and under the numbers, looking a bit unpleasing to the eye…

Miscellaneous
Perhaps it's better to scrap "Gulf of Xeros" as it makes some confusion about tert names?

What's the, as thenobodies put it, egg doing in the top right? :P

Maybe there could be a way to make "Dardanelles" and "The Narrows" stand out a tiny bit more without increasing the opacity (thinking along the lines of darker stroke, dark outer glow, etc.)?

The bottom left arrow seems to have put on a bit of weight…

Speaking of that corner, perhaps if we moved the "V" to the other side of the circle and moved the V-W border to the right it would improve the clarity of the currently cluttered region?

Does N. Point border Lower Suvla Plain? The shaded color of that cove is misleading…

Graphics are pretty good, I'm intrigued by your latest PM (cue suspense…) ;)
Let's get a gameplay guy in here
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V15

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:42 am

Version 15.
New colour scheme -> I'd thought about where to go with this map, and the obvious choice for me was to represent this battle at dawn when most of the landings took place.
To this extent, the map has been graduated in shades to the rising sun in the East.
Not everything is in correct colour at present, and i'm sure there will be lots of changes made to the impassables etc.

I've also taken off the starting positions on land - let's discuss those, but we'll need about 16.

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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V14 (p8) - legend details adjusted

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:10 am

the.killing.44 wrote:...
Graphics are pretty good, I'm intrigued by your latest PM (cue suspense…) ;)
Let's get a gameplay guy in here
.44


.44, i;'ve read through the above and noted some of the changes you suggested so they could be included in the new colours V15.
But i'll continue to refer to the above so that i ensure i get most of that in where possible.
Thanks :)
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V15 (p8) - New Colour Scheme

Postby captainwalrus on Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:47 pm

ooh. I like the new colors, especialy the ocean.
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V15 (p8) - New Colour Scheme

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:08 pm

captainwalrus wrote:ooh. I like the new colors, especialy the ocean.

Yeh i do also. i think it works well with the browns and yellows. :)

Are there any comments for the starting positions on land. I have some ideas, but i wanted to gain some input from you guys also?
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V15 (p8) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby Teflon Kris on Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:26 pm

Starting positions on land?

OK, I'm gonna need to work this one out - this is the kind of complex gamplay I like.

Tell me more - starting positions? What should I kniw>

In the first post it saysL

"Entente Starting Territories (16)
8 - Battleships
- start with high number and can bombard any marked target. They are killer reducing and should eventually fizzle out to complete neutrals
12 - Invasion Craft
4 invasion craft leading to minesweepers - can be bombarded from Turkish held land positions

Turkish Starting Territories (16)
3 Forts (10 Forts in total - 7 have to be manned/conquered)
13 Land positions"

The big question is what starts neutral (apologies if I'm being stupid here)? I'm guessing everything else is shared out/
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V16 Starting positions

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:55 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:Starting positions on land?

OK, I'm gonna need to work this one out - this is the kind of complex gamplay I like.

Tell me more - starting positions? What should I kniw>

In the first post it saysL

"Entente Starting Territories (16)
8 - Battleships
- start with high number and can bombard any marked target. They are killer reducing and should eventually fizzle out to complete neutrals
12 - Invasion Craft
4 invasion craft leading to minesweepers - can be bombarded from Turkish held land positions

Turkish Starting Territories (16)
3 Forts (10 Forts in total - 7 have to be manned/conquered)
13 Land positions"

The big question is what starts neutral (apologies if I'm being stupid here)? I'm guessing everything else is shared out/


Dang DJ. you beat me to it...i was in the final processes of trying to re-work this all out also, and had just finished placing all the possible starts and neutrals on the map and upadting the first page...

As of Version 16....
1. The number of territories currently on the map.

Entente Starting Territories (24)
8 - Battleships
- start with high number and can bombard any marked target. They are killer reducing and should eventually reduce to 1 (at this stage)
13 - Invasion Craft
3 Minesweepers

Turkish Starting Territories (16)
8 terrs on the east side of the Dardanelles (includes 2 Forts - represents the force that had to come from the Capital constantinople after the invasion started).
8 terrs on the western peninsula (includes 3 forts)

Other Territories (59)
3 Mines
3 (M) Mines sweepers
6 Land Terrs east of the Dardanelles (includes 1 landing beach)
44 Peninsula terrs west of the Dardanelles (includes 12 landing beaches)

Total Territories
99.


Anyway below is my idea for the starts.
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V17 (p9) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:38 am

Version 17.
Some changes underway....
1. I've reduced the forts on the Dardanelles to 8, and given them extra emphasis by the addition of the spotlights patrolling...
2. Added are the cliffs and terrains along the Dardanelles
3. I've started converting the mountains and ridges into bitmpa images for more realistic enhancment.

This version is also an export in CMYK, it's much darker than the previous RGB version, but i think more realistic towards the dawn darkness.

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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V17 (p9) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:23 pm

OK - this is just a first impression - without thinking potential moves and tactics in great depth:

I would anticipate that you may get the general comment that the starting positions need to be relatively fair for different numbers of players. You have battleships, landing craft and land starts for 8 players. With a different number of players - wouldn't the unused starts be shared-out amongst the players?

It would be great if the xml enabled different starts to be coded for different numbers of players. Its a change I would like to see + and would help many potential maps.

Anyway, let's stick with the 8-player scenario, assuming the above can be overcome (or I've got it wrong):

The battleships idea is totally innovative. I'm guessing they cant attack, only bombard. Brilliant. =D>

3 of the landing craft have nightmare scenarios - attack mines and subject to bombardment from the forts.

Similarly, some of the land starts can be bombarded whilst others are safe - I'd suggest all land starts start safe and have an adjacent 'safe' territory to give players an early-game option to start building? Similarly, in the south of the map, the starts nearest crossing points are more advantageous. There look to be 13 - I'd suggest having 2 or 3 in the southern area - preferably 2 close to the landing points - those on the mainland I would suggest they are spaced apart from each other as much as possible and are relatively similar (i,e. not bombardable and away from the forts).

In general, as well as the battleships gameplay - I like the landing craft idea which is balanced by the land starts being away from the beaches.

I think the first thing to think about would be the landing craft in the straight.

I can feel in my bones that this is gonna be a winner :D
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V17 (p9) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby whitestazn88 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:10 pm

hey cairns, its me here for the preliminary review. i have only touched upon this map once or twice, but i like the way it looks. and the gameplay looks awesome. both seem similar to pearl harbor, a personal favorite of mine, although i'm not very good at it lol. i would move this on but there are 2 things that i would change, although you obviously don't have to as the cartographer

-the left side of the map seems a little dim, and the territory names get a little hazy because of that, maybe brighten the territ names or the map overall on that side to make the contrast higher so we can find the names easier
- the beach territories, rather than having a smidgen of sand, should be completely white i think, that would make it really obvious and clear.

otherwise, it looks great. good work on another solid map mate.
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V17 (p9) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:42 pm

What does L9 connect to? ... the line hits the border between B and C.

Can forts bombard all sea territs in both dardanels and narrows? or do some forts bombard one and some bombard the other? how is this defined? on the map?

Great Map =)

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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V17 (p9) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:20 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:OK - this is just a first impression - without thinking potential moves and tactics in great depth:

I would anticipate that you may get the general comment that the starting positions need to be relatively fair for different numbers of players. You have battleships, landing craft and land starts for 8 players. With a different number of players - wouldn't the unused starts be shared-out amongst the players?
It would be great if the xml enabled different starts to be coded for different numbers of players. Its a change I would like to see + and would help many potential maps.

Yes these starts are shared out amongst the players in any game, there are 40 starting terts - 24 sea (includes 8 battleships) and 16 land. IN the xml , one has to specify what terts are starters. the xml idea would be good, perhaps suggest it. ;)

Anyway, let's stick with the 8-player scenario, assuming the above can be overcome (or I've got it wrong):
The battleships idea is totally innovative. I'm guessing they cant attack, only bombard. Brilliant. =D>
Correct.

3 of the landing craft have nightmare scenarios - attack mines and subject to bombardment from the forts.
yes i relaise that, but that is in line with the real battle. I can't really fit 8 in there, it would be too crowded.

Similarly, some of the land starts can be bombarded whilst others are safe - I'd suggest all land starts start safe and have an adjacent 'safe' territory to give players an early-game option to start building?

Similarly, in the south of the map, the starts nearest crossing points are more advantageous. There look to be 13 - I'd suggest having 2 or 3 in the southern area - preferably 2 close to the landing points - those on the mainland I would suggest they are spaced apart from each other as much as possible and are relatively similar (i,e. not bombardable and away from the forts).

Well the whole idea of using the battleships is to have some occupied terts and some un-occupied terts begin bombarded. This gives one an opportunity to whittle down you enemy a bit, as well as destroy some neutrals on terts that are strategic points for landing. I'll ensure that i do something to make everything as even as possible.
In general, as well as the battleships gameplay - I like the landing craft idea which is balanced by the land starts being away from the beaches.
I think the first thing to think about would be the landing craft in the straight.
ONce again, reality with what happened.

I can feel in my bones that this is gonna be a winner :D
let's hope so! ;)
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V17 (p9) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:24 pm

whitestazn88 wrote:hey cairns, its me here for the preliminary review....i would move this on but there are 2 things that i would change, although you obviously don't have to as the cartographer
-the left side of the map seems a little dim, and the territory names get a little hazy because of that, maybe brighten the territ names or the map overall on that side to make the contrast higher so we can find the names easier
- the beach territories, rather than having a smidgen of sand, should be completely white i think, that would make it really obvious and clear.
otherwise, it looks great. good work on another solid map mate.

left side being dim is representative of the attack at down. I will try ot make the tert names as clear as possible.
i'd prefer to keep the small areas of beach as are, i think the map would be overpowered if one were to make those beach terts white or snady coloured, and it is mentioned well in the legend.
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V17 (p9) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:26 pm

dolomite13 wrote:What does L9 connect to? ... the line hits the border between B and C.
C beach, i'll fix that.

Can forts bombard all sea territs in both dardanels and narrows? or do some forts bombard one and some bombard the other? how is this defined? on the map?...
I've been thinking about that and it will be in the legend that only the terts in front or in close proximity with be bombardable from forts each side of the sea.
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V17 (p9) - Land Starting Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:17 pm

dolomite13 wrote:....
Can forts bombard all sea territs in both dardanels and narrows? or do some forts bombard one and some bombard the other? how is this defined? on the map?

OK, it occured to me that the forts in front of the mine positions became redundant because the sea mines reverting to neutral each round.
So I have moved the sea mines out of the sight of forts and created three more Mine Sweeper "safe" type places where the mine sweepers can be bombarded from the forts.
With this there is good element of "running the gauntlet" in there. :)
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Re: WWI - Gallipoli V18

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:56 pm

Version 18 has those new terts on the Dardanelles and the legend adjustment for the Forts.

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