The Conquer 500

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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:38 pm

iancanton wrote:now that u can no longer eliminate someone's pit crew immediately from the start, the gameplay now looks credible. well done! the segment bonuses have the potential to cause difficulties for player 2 in 1v1 games because they will often be unevenly distributed. this can be solved by letting the 10 middle locations of each segment start with either 1 or 2 neutral troops. if this is done, then changing the track location bonus to +1 or +2 for every 4 (with no minimum) instead of +1 for every 3 (with a +1 minimum) will also be beneficial.

ian. :)


I like the idea of one of the locations per segment starting neutral and changing the bonus to +1 for every 4... because of the additional +1 per whole segment. That makes the total bonus for the whole track +19 (+9 for locations +10 for segments) instead of +20 (+10 for locations +10 for segments) but will help equalize things a bit on starting drops.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby ender516 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:11 pm

My math tells me that +1 for every 4 of 30 locations would result in +7, not +9.
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:03 am

Here is a map updated with the comments from above I also redid the starting forces random drop info below.

Based on the fact that you will have a +1 bonus to start on average we probably need to add +2 or +3 for holding a pit crew so that you will start with some reinforcements.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1136/472 ... c0b5_b.jpg

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Territories: 78
- 24 car conditions (tires, fuel, engine)
- 8 pit crew
- 15 pit equipment
- 30 track locations
- 1 winners circle

Connections
Track Locations
- Track locations can assault other track locations in the same track segment or next segment counter clockwise.
- All track locations can assault the winner circle.
Pit Crews
- Your pit crew can one way assault all of your teams car conditions.
- All pit crews can assault any pit equipment.
- All pit crews can assault the winners circle.
Pit Equipment
- Pit equipment can assault other locations of the same equipment.
- Pit equipment can bombard car conditions of the same name.
Winners Circle
- Can bombard any map location.

Starting Forces
- Cars conditions start with 1 neutral on each location.
- Winners Circle starts with 20 neutrals.
- Pits crews start with 3 on each location.
- Pit equipment starts with 2 neutral on each location.

Bonus Forces
+1 for every 3 sections of track you hold (minimum +1)
+1 for holding all 3 track locations in a given track segment.
+3 for every fuel, tires, engine pit equipment.
+2 for every tools and jack pair.
+1 for each of your teams car conditions you control.
+2 for controlling all 3 of your car conditions
+40 if you hold one track location in each of the 10 track segments.

Deployment
- All car conditions loose 1 per turn.
- Winners Circle resets to 20 neutral each turn.

Starting Forces
Players are assigned the pit crews as starting positions.

In a 2 player game
- both players would have 4 pit crew each. (8/2)
- both players would have 6 track locations each with 8 remainder set to 3 neutral. (20/3)
- starting track bonus +1

In a 3 player game
- all players would have 3 pit crew each with 2 remainder set to 1 neutral. (8/3)
- all players would have 6 track locations each with 2 remainder set to 3 neutral. (20/3)
- starting track bonus +1

In a 4 player game
- all players would have 2 pit crew each. (8/4)
- all players would have 5 track locations each. (20/4)
- starting track bonus +1

In a 5 player game
- all players would have 1 pit crew each with 3 remainder set to 1 neutral. (8/5)
- all players would have 4 track locations each. (20/5)
- starting track bonus +1

In a 6 player game
- all players would have 1 pit crew each with 2 remainder set to 1 neutral. (8/6)
- all players would have 3 track locations each with 2 remainder set to 3 neutral. (20/6)
- starting track bonus +0

In a 7 player game
- all players would have 1 pit crew each with 1 remainder set to 1 neutral. (8/7)
- all players would have 2 track locations each with 6 remainder set to 3 neutral. (20/7)
- starting track bonus +0

In a 8 player game
- all players would have 1 pit crew each. (8/8)
- all players would have 2 track locations each with 4 remainder set to 3 neutral. . (20/8)
- starting track bonus +0
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby natty dread on Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:06 am

Ok, this is more a graphics suggestion, but it has to do with the clarity of the map so... I would suggest using visual elements in the legend - right now it's a big wall of text that kinda makes the whole map unattractive, most people don't want to have to read that much to know the rules of a map.

The more of that text you can replace with visual elements, the better...

As for the gameplay, I suggest autodeploys for the pit crews.
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:17 am

natty_dread wrote:The more of that text you can replace with visual elements, the better...


I totally agree I will address it in the graphics workshop for certain =)

natty_dread wrote:As for the gameplay, I suggest autodeploys for the pit crews.


+2 per pit autodeploy could work for the pit side ... but should I drop the standard minimum +3 for a map in which case +1 or +0 isn't enough to get rolling and because the pit is separate from the track the autodeploy won't help there. I think it may be time to work on starting forces.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:11 pm

So I was thinking about starting forces and I think this may be rather easy based on the way the map connections work. 3 for player starting areas ... 2 for all neutrals ... and 20 for winners circle.

The track neutrals may need to be bumped to 3 and the car neutrals lowered to 1 but that is a topic for discussion =)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1147/473 ... a91018.jpg

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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby iancanton on Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:24 pm

there is +1 for each of ur team's car conditions and +2 for all of your team's car conditions. if u hold all 3 of ur team's car conditions, then will u receive +2 for ur team's car conditions, or will it be +3 and an additional +2, making +5? this needs to be made clear.

natty_dread wrote:I suggest autodeploys for the pit crews.

perhaps not at this stage (trying to reduce first mover advantage), but a +1 auto-deploy might help to keep some balance if the track becomes too attractive relative to the pits.

dolomite13 wrote:should I drop the standard minimum +3 for a map in which case +1 or +0 isn't enough to get rolling

no, keep the standard +3 minimum. this lets players choose whether to deploy in the pits or on the track.

ian. :)
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:48 pm

iancanton wrote:there is +1 for each of ur team's car conditions and +2 for all of your team's car conditions. if u hold all 3 of ur team's car conditions, then will u receive +2 for ur team's car conditions, or will it be +3 and an additional +2, making +5? this needs to be made clear. ian. :)


The total for the car is +5

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby iancanton on Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:40 am

for the pit equipment bonus, do u mean +3 for every fuel + tires + engine and +2 for every tools + jack, so that u receive +5 if u have 1 of each? the alternative is that every fuel is +3, every tires is +3, every engine is +3, every tools is +2 and every jack is +2, giving +13 for holding 1 of each.

comparing the bonuses available in the pits and on the track, it looks as if there isn't much incentive to deploy on the track. at the moment, the winning method is likely to be to gain bonuses from the car conditions and put everything into a struggle to hold the pit equipment, then bombard the pit crew from the winner's circle, with mopping-up of the track being left till last. instead of +1 for every 4 track locations, how about +2 for every white track location (perhaps auto-deploy)? with an initial deployment of 3 and potential +2 bonuses in both halves of the board, each player will have then a real choice to make between pits and track, instead of automatically deploying on pit crew.

ian. :)
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:02 pm

iancanton wrote:for the pit equipment bonus, do u mean +3 for every fuel + tires + engine and +2 for every tools + jack, so that u receive +5 if u have 1 of each? the alternative is that every fuel is +3, every tires is +3, every engine is +3, every tools is +2 and every jack is +2, giving +13 for holding 1 of each.

comparing the bonuses available in the pits and on the track, it looks as if there isn't much incentive to deploy on the track. at the moment, the winning method is likely to be to gain bonuses from the car conditions and put everything into a struggle to hold the pit equipment, then bombard the pit crew from the winner's circle, with mopping-up of the track being left till last. instead of +1 for every 4 track locations, how about +2 for every white track location (perhaps auto-deploy)? with an initial deployment of 3 and potential +2 bonuses in both halves of the board, each player will have then a real choice to make between pits and track, instead of automatically deploying on pit crew.

ian. :)

I was going with holding 1 tools and 1 jack gets +2 ... if you hold all jacks all 3 tools you would get +6 I did this because those two equipment can't bombard car conditions. Holding 1 tires + 1 engine + 1 fuel gets +3. If you hold all 9 you would get +9. Holding all pit equipment would get you +15... if this seems like too much then I would drop holding one of each (fuel, tires, engine) to +1 because they are strategic positions to bombard car conditions.

I like removing the +1 per 4 locations on the track as well. Increasing the central track location to 3 neutral to start and giving it an autodeploy 2 would guarantee units on the track side. Holding a complete track segment should still give you a bonus although increasing that to +2 per segment would also give you incentive to go for the track...

You are right in that the pit/equipment/car side of the map would be hotly contested and the main place you would drop reinforcements if the track didn't have some built in way to sort of "force" reinforcements there.

I do want both half's to play a pivotal roll. But in the end its a race track simulation and I want the pits side to support conquering the track side so that you can "win" the race and bombard the remaining competition out of the race. It might be worth investigating having the winners circle only accessible from the track rather than from the pits and add a neutral 10 "pit row" location that crews can assault and then bombard the track. What ya think?

In the end this one will succeed or fail based on how the bonuses balance the map.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby iancanton on Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:36 am

dolomite13 wrote:I was going with holding 1 tools and 1 jack gets +2 ... if you hold all jacks all 3 tools you would get +6 I did this because those two equipment can't bombard car conditions.

that's what i thought. in the legend, u can make it clearer by using a + or & instead of a /.

dolomite13 wrote:Holding 1 tires + 1 engine + 1 fuel gets +3. If you hold all 9 you would get +9. Holding all pit equipment would get you +15... if this seems like too much then I would drop holding one of each (fuel, tires, engine) to +1 because they are strategic positions to bombard car conditions.

+3 for every set of tires + engine + fuel seems fine. it'll be difficult to hold this bonus. the main value of these regions is, as u say, to bombard the car conditions.

dolomite13 wrote:Increasing the central track location to 3 neutral to start and giving it an autodeploy 2 would guarantee units on the track side. Holding a complete track segment should still give you a bonus although increasing that to +2 per segment would also give you incentive to go for the track...

sounds good.

dolomite13 wrote:I want the pits side to support conquering the track side so that you can "win" the race and bombard the remaining competition out of the race. It might be worth investigating having the winners circle only accessible from the track rather than from the pits and add a neutral 10 "pit row" location that crews can assault and then bombard the track. What ya think?

this will make it much easier for the pit crews to bombard the track (but not win the game directly by this means, since the pit row cannot bombard the pit crew), so the winner's circle will probably be used only after the pit row bombardment has removed the opposition from the track. something doesn't feel quite right about this, though i can't think what. u can try it and see.

ian. :)
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:02 pm

iancanton wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:I want the pits side to support conquering the track side so that you can "win" the race and bombard the remaining competition out of the race. It might be worth investigating having the winners circle only accessible from the track rather than from the pits and add a neutral 10 "pit row" location that crews can assault and then bombard the track. What ya think?

this will make it much easier for the pit crews to bombard the track (but not win the game directly by this means, since the pit row cannot bombard the pit crew), so the winner's circle will probably be used only after the pit row bombardment has removed the opposition from the track. something doesn't feel quite right about this, though i can't think what. u can try it and see.
ian. :)


The one thing I would like to avoid is having someone completely eliminated from the game entirely by loosing all track locations and no way to get back in the race. A Pit row location would allow you to "get back in a race". Perhaps pit row could be 20 neutral, resetting to 20 neutral, and assault the track locations that start neutral.

Hmmm....

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:46 pm

Rather than two separate equipment bonuses i am not thinking a flat +5 for holding one of each equipment is a better idea. That way you can get +15 total from equipment +5 and from your car. +20 total and because you need to hold the track to take out the other pit crews it is possible that someone would remain in the game quite a while before you could eliminate them from the track side.
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby iancanton on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:51 am

dolomite13 wrote:The one thing I would like to avoid is having someone completely eliminated from the game entirely by loosing all track locations and no way to get back in the race.

lose is spelt with only one o! can u amend the spelling in the car conditions bonus description?

dolomite13 wrote:A Pit row location would allow you to "get back in a race". Perhaps pit row could be 20 neutral, resetting to 20 neutral, and assault the track locations that start neutral.

this is worth a shot.

dolomite13 wrote:Rather than two separate equipment bonuses i am not thinking a flat +5 for holding one of each equipment is a better idea. That way you can get +15 total from equipment +5 and from your car. +20 total and because you need to hold the track to take out the other pit crews it is possible that someone would remain in the game quite a while before you could eliminate them from the track side.

it will be very difficult to hold one of each pit equipment because all pit equipment can be assaulted by all pit crew and all other pit equipment. i prefer the existing +3 and +2 bonuses that u have.

ian. :)
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:13 pm

iancanton wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:Rather than two separate equipment bonuses i am not thinking a flat +5 for holding one of each equipment is a better idea. That way you can get +15 total from equipment +5 and from your car. +20 total and because you need to hold the track to take out the other pit crews it is possible that someone would remain in the game quite a while before you could eliminate them from the track side.

it will be very difficult to hold one of each pit equipment because all pit equipment can be assaulted by all pit crew and all other pit equipment. i prefer the existing +3 and +2 bonuses that u have.

ian. :)
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby MrBenn on Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:34 pm

I said it a long time ago, but I still like this map.

Be wary of making things overcomplicated - the appeal is down to one of racing around the track, and that's what you want to encapsulate with the gameplay... I don;t want you to overcomplicate things!
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Back From The Dead

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:18 pm

MrBenn wrote:I said it a long time ago, but I still like this map.

Be wary of making things overcomplicated - the appeal is down to one of racing around the track, and that's what you want to encapsulate with the gameplay... I don;t want you to overcomplicate things!


I agree, I would love the racing element to be the focus of the map, and the other things that are part of racing but more behind the scenes need to be there and influence the race but they do need to feel like support for the race not more important than the race.

I will have an update soon ... I have been picking away at the map and the key to simplify things for a few weeks.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Map & Mechanics Updated

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:19 pm

Here we go ....

Click image to enlarge.
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Territories: 79
- 24 car conditions (tires, fuel, engine)
- 8 pit crew
- 15 pit equipment
- 30 track locations
- 1 winners circle
- 1 pit row

Connections
Track Locations
- Track locations can assault other track locations in the same track segment or next segment counter clockwise.
- All track locations can assault the winner circle.

Pit Crews
- Your pit crew can assault all of your teams car conditions.
- All pit crews can assault any pit equipment.
- All pit crews can assault pit row.

Pit Equipment
- Pit equipment can assault other locations of the same equipment.
- Pit equipment can bombard car conditions of the same name.

Winners Circle
- Can bombard all pit equipment, car conditions, and pit crews.
- Resets to 20 neutral every turn.

Pit Row
- Can assault select track locations that begin neutral.
- Resets to 20 neutral every turn.

Starting Forces
- Cars conditions start with 1 neutral on each location.
- Winners Circle starts with 20 neutrals.
- Pit Row starts with 20 neutrals.
- Pits crews start with 3 on each location.
- Pit equipment starts with 2 neutral on each location.

Bonus Forces
+1 for holding all 3 track locations in a given track segment.
+2 for holding one jack and one tools pit equipment.
+3 for holding one tires, one engine, and one fuel pit equipment.
+1 for each of your teams car conditions you control or +5 for controlling all 3 of your car conditions
+40 if you hold one track location in each of the 10 track segments.

Deployment
- All car conditions loose 1 per turn.
- Pit Crews autodeploy 3.
- Winners Circle resets to 20 each turn.

Starting Forces
Players are assigned the pit crews as starting positions.

In a 2 player game
- both players would have 4 pit crew each. (8/2)
- both players would have 6 track locations each with 8 remainder set to 3 neutral. (20/3)

In a 3 player game
- all players would have 3 pit crew each with 2 remainder set to 1 neutral. (8/3)
- all players would have 6 track locations each with 2 remainder set to 3 neutral. (20/3)

In a 4 player game
- all players would have 2 pit crew each. (8/4)
- all players would have 5 track locations each. (20/4)

In a 5 player game
- all players would have 1 pit crew each with 3 remainder set to 1 neutral. (8/5)
- all players would have 4 track locations each. (20/5)

In a 6 player game
- all players would have 1 pit crew each with 2 remainder set to 1 neutral. (8/6)
- all players would have 3 track locations each with 2 remainder set to 3 neutral. (20/6)

In a 7 player game
- all players would have 1 pit crew each with 1 remainder set to 1 neutral. (8/7)
- all players would have 2 track locations each with 6 remainder set to 3 neutral. (20/7)

In a 8 player game
- all players would have 1 pit crew each. (8/8)
- all players would have 2 track locations each with 4 remainder set to 3 neutral. . (20/8)
Last edited by dolomite13 on Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Map & Mechanics Updated

Postby iancanton on Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:49 pm

i was initially sceptical about coupling the pit row and winner's circle killer neutrals with a +40 track bonus. however, after discussing the effects with Evil DIMwit, we reckon it's a stroke of genius. well done!

ian. :)
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Map & Gameplay Updated

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:43 pm

Glad to see this stickied as well...
Sketchblog [Update 07/25/11]: http://indyhelixsketch.blogspot.com/
Living in Japan [Update 07/17/11]: http://mirrorcountryih.blogspot.com/
Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: viewtopic.php?f=241&t=116575
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Map & Mechanics Updated

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:43 pm

iancanton wrote:i was initially sceptical about coupling the pit row and winner's circle killer neutrals with a +40 track bonus. however, after discussing the effects with Evil DIMwit, we reckon it's a stroke of genius. well done!

ian. :)
=)

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Map & Gameplay Updated

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:21 pm

Now we just need people to pop in and give some thoughts on it =)

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Map & Gameplay Updated

Postby barterer2002 on Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:39 pm

I think this map is going to stalemate a lot.

You've got the winners circle with its N20 which is the only way to attack the pit crews (unless I missed someplace else) players aren't going to be able to go through those 20 and then face a massively built up pit crew (which autodeploys 3 each turn) because they'll be at a numbers disadvantage and either leave the winner's circle open for a counter attack, or attack all the way down to 1 left (failing most of the time and opening up the counter attack there as well). Or leaving enough armies to protect winners circle but sacrificing them to the killer neutrals.

I'm just thinking that many players aren't going to make that attack and will sit back and wait to counterattack.

I kind of think the issue here is the +3auto that each pit crew gets. Without them the pit crews don't become so all powerful and even going through the N20 is possible.

I may also be missing something but this is the part that caught my eye
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Map & Gameplay Updated

Postby dolomite13 on Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:54 pm

barterer2002 wrote:You've got the winners circle with its N20 which is the only way to attack the pit crews (unless I missed someplace else) players aren't going to be able to go through those 20 and then face a massively built up pit crew (which autodeploys 3 each turn) because they'll be at a numbers disadvantage and either leave the winner's circle open for a counter attack, or attack all the way down to 1 left (failing most of the time and opening up the counter attack there as well). Or leaving enough armies to protect winners circle but sacrificing them to the killer neutrals.


There is a +40 bonus for holding one full lap of the track ... so the pits gain their +3 which is needed to keep attacking and taking the pit equipment and you can instead focus reinforcements to the track. Even in 3 v 3 games all 3 players on one team will be able to get the +40 bonus. The 20n on the pit row and winners circle are for attacking across from track to pits or pits to track. however the track is very important in that the +40 bonus is there.

I would like to see the map in play before saying its going to stalemate.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 - Map & Gameplay Updated

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:18 pm

Is the +40 bonus for holding the whole track?? If so then the legend needs to be reworded from +40 if you hold a track location in each segment to +40 if you hold the entire track.
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