[Abandoned] - Switzerland

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Re: SWITZERLAND v01 17jul

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:35 am

pamoa wrote:I need more comments on gameplay before working on graphics
but almost all comments were about the bg :(


Maybe there's not that much wrong with the gameplay.

The only complaint I have: The bonus for founding members seems too low. There is no way to defend them from fewer than four territories and together they border seven other territories. Compare that to the Italian cities which can be defended easily with one territory; the founding members should be worth at least three or four (probably only three, given the highly distributed gameplay style).
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Re: SWITZERLAND v01 17jul

Postby pamoa on Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:37 am

thenobodies80 wrote:Highways are difficult to hold, but the two bonuses should help (A1-german / A2 - italian)
You have 22 german territories, with a +3 bonus each set of 6... :-k For example in Berlin1961 we have 15 russian territories with a +5 bonus for 8 territories.
Maybe you could increase the number of required territories for this bonus and adjust the bonus you want to give.
Italian bonus is very easy, Bellinzona/Lugano are coded? And maybe add locarno? (3 italian/7 tourist).
Anyway a +1 isn't a big problem if a player will not start with this bonus.

what do you think German speaking cities +4 each 7 or +6 each 11
I don't want to mix language cities with tourist resorts but the two Italian speaking cities will be coded as starting position
tourist resort bonus can be increased to +2 each 4


ManBungalow wrote:I like the way the bonuses work, but I'd also like to see a few of the major cities giving auto-deploys and so on.
Oh, and those are original graphics, right ?

I don't like the idea of adding another bonus level with autodeploy
I think it isn't fitting with bonus for territories set concept
the map I used isn't original but as it is a draft you won't recognize it when map is finished


Evil DIMwit wrote:The bonus for founding members seems too low. There is no way to defend them from fewer than four territories and together they border seven other territories. Compare that to the Italian cities which can be defended easily with one territory; the founding members should be worth at least three or four (probably only three, given the highly distributed gameplay style).

to be exact Italian speaking cities are 2 and both territories should be defended
but I guess you mean it is easy to hold all 4 southern cities with one defending territory so you have to conquer 4 to get +1
I was thinking about adding the Simplon pass road from Brig to Milano so it is a bit more open in south


it seems you guys think the bonus scale should be higher so here is my proposition

4 founding members +3 (prev. +2)
22 German cities +5 each set of 7 (prev. +3 /6)
8 French cities +3 each set of 4 (prev. +2 /4)
2 Italian cities +1
8 tourist resorts +3 each set of 4 (prev. +1 /3)
6 foreign cities +2 each set of 3 (prev. +1 /3)
13 A1 cities +9 (prev. +7)
10 A2 cities +7 (prev. +6)
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby pamoa on Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:02 pm

a Swiss map by a Swiss SWITZERLAND v02 new features : bonus structure, bg, short swiss history
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby Scania N113 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:37 am

I am actually a member of your group Le Clan. But I need to type all the things in English instead of French so as to make sure that all people understand.

I like plain geography map very much, and I would like to give you some suggestions for this map. Firstly I suggest changing the title of this map from Switzerland to Swiss Cities. If you name it Switzerland, people might have an interpretation that the map is made up of the states in Switzerland. If you change it to Swiss Cities, people will know immediately that the lands in this map are points, but not areas.

Secondly, I know that you need the red colour and the white colour in this map because they are the main colours of the Swiss national flag. However I think that using the red colour to represent non-playable area is not very appropriate. if you interchange the red and the white, the effect may be much better. The main reason to explain this is that the red in this map is so sharp that it will distract people's attention from the main area.

Thirdly, I do not think the foreign cities in this map are really needed unless you find something that they are related to Switzerland. If you think that you need some foreign cities to make the map become more interesting, I suggest adding some cities that are closer to Switzerland. For example Feldkirch in Austria, Lindau in Germany (Munchen is too far away), Genoa in Italy (Milan is also too far away), etc. Also, Lyon can be cut firstly because its location is wrong here, and it has no relationship with Switzerland.

Fourthly, it is about the gameplay of this map. I highly appreciate the bonus because it is very interesting indeed. However I do not agree with +7 and +9 for A1 Highway and A2 Highway repectively. This is too much for a map with such number of lands! Also, I do not agree +5 for 7 German Speakers because they are very near to each other, so it is very easy to hold 7.

In conclusion this is a very decent map, and it has potential! I hope that my suggestions and ideas are useful to you.
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby pamoa on Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:56 am

thanks for droping by and giving feedback
Scania N113 wrote:Firstly I suggest changing the title of this map from Switzerland to Swiss Cities. If you name it Switzerland, people might have an interpretation that the map is made up of the states in Switzerland. If you change it to Swiss Cities, people will know immediately that the lands in this map are points, but not areas.

actually it is called Switzerland because the real title on the map itself is Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera

Scania N113 wrote:Secondly, I know that you need the red colour and the white colour in this map because they are the main colours of the Swiss national flag. However I think that using the red colour to represent non-playable area is not very appropriate. if you interchange the red and the white, the effect may be much better. The main reason to explain this is that the red in this map is so sharp that it will distract people's attention from the main area.

sorry but I won't use the red cross flag
as you probably know red cross was founded by Henri Dunant in Geneva and he used a reverted Swiss flag as emblem red cross on a white background
and this is a basic graphic choice I made for this map


Scania N113 wrote:Thirdly, I do not think the foreign cities in this map are really needed unless you find something that they are related to Switzerland. If you think that you need some foreign cities to make the map become more interesting, I suggest adding some cities that are closer to Switzerland. For example Feldkirch in Austria, Lindau in Germany (Munchen is too far away), Genoa in Italy (Milan is also too far away), etc. Also, Lyon can be cut firstly because its location is wrong here, and it has no relationship with Switzerland.

as said before foreign cities were added to explain the position of Switzerland in Europe as a crossroad
then I used the cities over 1 million inhabitants around Switzerland and added Vaduz for Liechtenstein
they are not located at their geographical position except Milano and Vaduz
Genova is on the Ligurian shore of the Mediterranean sea smaller than Milano and 3 time farer
Lyon is related to French speaking part of Switzerland as the nearest large city in France
you will found more Swiss French speakers who have been their than in Basel
München as capital of Bavaria on of the richest Land of Germany which whom Switzerland is making a lot of commercial exchange
Stuttgart and Strasbourg were chosen only because of their size and position on the north south European axis


Scania N113 wrote:Fourthly, it is about the gameplay of this map. I highly appreciate the bonus because it is very interesting indeed. However I do not agree with +7 and +9 for A1 Highway and A2 Highway repectively. This is too much for a map with such number of lands! Also, I do not agree +5 for 7 German Speakers because they are very near to each other, so it is very easy to hold 7.

it is not so easy to hold 7, 10 or even 13 position in a game
the bonus is high because the resources you need to get them is high
maybe the German Speakers bonus should be lowered to +4
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:14 am

The new bonuses look good. The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road. I don't know if you need to reform the whole road system or if you can get away with just the Vaduz-München section; the red roads go very well in the rest of the map.
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:08 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road.


Agree.
The new background is nice. Good choice =D>
About the roads, try to use a dark red, maybe 7c0100 instead of ad0200. :?:
Graphics is good, i don't think you have to work again on it . You could fix everything later

Bonuses:
Without considering the values of bonuses but only the number of regions required,
pamoa wrote:what do you think German speaking cities +4 each 7 or +6 each 11


Each 11 is perfect, only 2% of probabilities that a player starts with that bonus.

pamoa wrote:I don't want to mix language cities with tourist resorts but the two Italian speaking cities will be coded as starting position


Those 2 starting positions are good: balance 1v1 games (both players will start with 16 regions) and the small bonus has to be taken.

pamoa wrote:but tourist resort bonus can be increased to +2 each 4

I think you should increase the number of regions required for tourist, french and foreign.
Maybe tourist and french each 5.
Foreign each 4.
With this values a player should have always less than 10% of probabilities to start with one of these bonuses (i think :mrgreen: ).


Have a nice day ;)

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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:23 am

thenobodies80 wrote:[
Maybe tourist and french each 5.
Foreign each 4.
With this values a player should have always less than 10% of probabilities to start with one of these bonuses (i think :mrgreen: ).

You mean, French any 5 and Foreign any 4. There wouldn't be enough for another bonus.
I haven't run the numbers, but would it help bring the starting drop rate down if, say, three of the French territories were in a start position set?

Edit: I went ahead and did run some numbers, and in order to get less than 10%, it looks like you'd have to either raise the bonus requirements to 6 each for French/tourist and 5 for foreign, or you'd have to implement more start positions. The latter, I think, would be far preferable: If for each bonus type you split them into two halves and make each half into a starting position set, your probability in a 3-player game of someone dropping a bonus for French and Tourist falls to less than 2%, and for foreign cities, of course, becomes zero.
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby pamoa on Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:34 am

Evil DIMwit wrote: The white country/red background looks very good, especially compared to the cross -- except where the background is the same color as the road. I don't know if you need to reform the whole road system or if you can get away with just the Vaduz-München section; the red roads go very well in the rest of the map.

thenobodies80 wrote:About the roads, try to use a dark red, maybe 7c0100 instead of ad0200. :?:
Graphics is good, i don't think you have to work again on it . You could fix everything later

you are both right about roads I already knew it but I will work on it when I have time

about bonuses as Evil DIMwit noted French and tourist are each 4 in order to give twice the bonus if you hold them all
in the same way German is divided by 3
    4 founding members +3 (prev. +2)
    22 German cities +5 each set of 7 (prev. +3 /6)
    8 French cities +3 each set of 4 (prev. +2 /4)
    2 Italian cities +1
    8 tourist resorts +3 each set of 4 (prev. +1 /3)
    6 foreign cities +2 each set of 3 (prev. +1 /3)
    13 A1 cities +9 (prev. +7)
    10 A2 cities +7 (prev. +6)
for the starting territories xml I was thinking coding 3 groups of starting positions

Code: Select all
<positions>
 <position>
  <territory>Lugano</territory>
  <territory>Davos</territory>
  <territory>Gstaad</territory>
  <territory>Stutgart</territory>
  <territory>Lyon</territory>
  <territory>Genève</territory>
  <territory>Sion</territory>
 </position>
 <position>
  <territory>Bellinzona</territory>
  <territory>Verbier</territory>
  <territory>Sankt Moritz</territory>
  <territory>Vaduz</territory>
  <territory>Strassbourg</territory>
  <territory>Lausanne</territory>
  <territory>La Chaux-de-Fonds</territory>
 </position>
 <position>
  <territory>Locarno</territory>
  <territory>Zermatt</territory>
  <territory>München</territory>
  <territory>Milano</territory>
  <territory>Neuchâtel</territory>
  <territory>Delémont</territory>
 </position>
</positions>
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:35 am

I thought there were only two starting positions. #-o

With the new infos, french and tourist bonuses are ok ;)

So,
48 regions on your map
20 starting positions
No starting neutrals
20 germans (+2)
2 italian
6 foreign
8 tourist
6 french (+2)
4 founders
2 shared french/german

Players will start with a good numbers of regions in all games except in a 4 players, in which all players will start with 12 regions (a possible advantage for the first player). Anway, you can fix this later with the gameplay guys ;)
french and tourist regions are no longer a problem but i'm still worried about the german regions.
pamoa wrote:about bonuses as Evil DIMwit noted French and tourist are each 4 in order to give twice the bonus if you hold them all
in the same way German is divided by 3


I like the idea, but i think that also german should be given twice.
you have 28 regions not coded as SP
in a 1vs1 game each player has 10 SP and 9 regions. 10 are neutral .
Some examples:
  • if the neutrals are all german regions (100%*):
    • you have 12 german regions and 6 not german.
    • only if each player will have 3 'not german' regions, each player will have 6 german regions.
    • If 'not german' regions aren't splitted equally a player will start with a +5 bonus
  • if only 3 'not german' regions are neutral (75%*) :
    • you have 15 german and 3 'not german'
    • 1 player could have 2 'not german' and 7 german, the other player will have 1 'not german' and 8 german.
    • 1 player could have 3 'not german' and 6 german, the other one 9 german
  • if the neutrals are half german and half 'not german' (50%*):
    • You have 17 german and 1 'not german'
    • both players will start with the +5 bonus
  • if the neutrals are all 'not german' regions (25%*)
    • you have 18 german
    • both players will start with the +5 bonus
* percentage of german neutral

With a bonus assigned the first player could attack with 14 troops on a single region instead of 9 destroying the opponents, even before this one starts to play. :(
If i'm not wrong, you could assign the bonus twice (like french and tourist :) ), increasing the number of required regions to 10 (or 11) and then fix the bonus value.
Nobody will start with the bonus :D

Have a nice day ;)

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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby pamoa on Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:46 am

wow thenobodies80 are you studying statistics or some are you just a math geek
don't misunderstand me I really appreciate your implication =D>

in fact I started the map with 47 territs which is far more better
so I'll remove München from the map (for your eyes only Scania N113 ;) )
so foreign cities are on the map as destination cities for main highways which stick better to the crossroad of Europe theme
the bonus will be +1 each 2 (starting will be Stuttgart / Milano / Lyon)

for German cities it seems statistics speaks for dividing by 2
so the bonus will be +7 each 11
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:22 pm

Huh. Better get this map out fast while there's still a Switzerland.
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby pamoa on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:44 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:Huh. Better get this map out fast while there's still a Switzerland.

all this story because Geneva police dare to arrest his son who was beating up two domestic in an Geneva hotel
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby Dreamer on Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:41 pm

Nice idea! At last there's a new styled map! I suggest you put some tunnels like the Simplon, Grand St. Bernard or Lötschberg as well. Some bank, chocolate, cheese bonus could be interesting too. Nice start anyway, looking forward to playing on it!
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Re: SWITZERLAND v02 18aou

Postby nick_horny on Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:37 pm

As a real Swiss (Swiss-German) Guy, I can say that you have done a realy good job with this map. I'm looking forward to play this one. Thank you mate
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