[Abandoned] - Switzerland

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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:07 pm

ghirrindin wrote:Quite a few people will notice that the font is Helvetica, actually. It's a Swiss invention and fits perfectly with the map. Go with it!

Out of 20,000, how many do you predict? Less than 100.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby ghirrindin on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:21 pm

Do you really want to argue about numbers?

Look, the map depicts contemporary Switzerland, and I think Helvetica appropriately captures late twentieth/early twenty-first century Swiss aesthetics.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:25 pm

ghirrindin wrote:Do you really want to argue about numbers?

Look, the map depicts contemporary Switzerland, and I think Helvetica appropriately captures late twentieth/early twenty-first century Swiss aesthetics.

And it looks boring as shit! The point is, if a huge majority of people don't recognize the font and what it means, it just looks boring. Using it for tert names? Fine. For every single aspect of the map? Just boring.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby ghirrindin on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:43 pm

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter then. I get what he's going for and appreciate it, and I don't think he should worry about a couple of people being bored by the font on the map.

Incidentally, this argument is quite humorous, especially considering the discussion that surrounded the last map of Switzerland by Kaplowitz. That map was ruthlessly attacked for not being Swiss enough. Here we have Pamoa's rendition with a Swiss font and Swiss national colors, and yet the foundry community ripped those elements apart.

Although, I will admit that the really bright red was hard on the eyes. ;)
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:55 pm

The more I look at this map the more solid the gameplay seems. Time for a stamp, that's what I say.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby jefjef on Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:40 pm

Hi Pomoa!

Thought I'd stop and look real quick.

I have to wonder how this map would look with diff colors for the neighboring countries. Germ. France. Italy. Instead of just a kinda bland red.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby pamoa on Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:08 pm

jefjef wrote:Hi pamoa!
Thought I'd stop and look real quick.
I have to wonder how this map would look with diff colors for the neighbouring countries. Germ. France. Italy. Instead of just a kinda bland red.

thanks for dropping
the graphic concept is the Swiss flag white cross in a red square
so sorry but I'll stick to this
and I'm still waiting for my gameplay stamp :-s
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby Incandenza on Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:55 am

So having looked thru the thread, I can't help but notice that no one's said anything about what, to me, seems like a large gameplay issue: the dead ends. I count 8, 9 if you include Geneve (which is behind Lausanne). That's a lot, tho solving the problem might be difficult (i.e. adding roads to resort towns, or having all foreign cities be able to attack each other, or something). It's not a deal-breaker, but it's worth talking about, since maps with a substantial percentage of dead-end terits have been generally considered a Bad Thing.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby pamoa on Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:35 am

Incandenza wrote:So having looked thru the thread, I can't help but notice that no one's said anything about what, to me, seems like a large gameplay issue: the dead ends. I count 8, 9 if you include Geneve (which is behind Lausanne). That's a lot, to solving the problem might be difficult (i.e. adding roads to resort towns, or having all foreign cities be able to attack each other, or something). It's not a deal-breaker, but it's worth talking about, since maps with a substantial percentage of dead-end terits have been generally considered a Bad Thing.

for me having all foreign cities connected is fine
it's only an instruction string in the legend
if you think it will help the gameplay making it more open
on the opposite adding roads make no sense for me
but maybe inventing some helicopter connection between touristic resorts
it may be an aerial connection theme:
    airplanes connects all foreign cities
    helicopters connects all touristic resorts
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:19 pm

Incandenza wrote:So having looked thru the thread, I can't help but notice that no one's said anything about what, to me, seems like a large gameplay issue: the dead ends. I count 8, 9 if you include Geneve (which is behind Lausanne). That's a lot, tho solving the problem might be difficult (i.e. adding roads to resort towns, or having all foreign cities be able to attack each other, or something). It's not a deal-breaker, but it's worth talking about, since maps with a substantial percentage of dead-end terits have been generally considered a Bad Thing.

Really, shallow dead ends -- dead ends with a depth of one -- are all right. You can conquer them, not transfer any troops onto them, and move on from the territory they're attached to. That's not so bad, particularly in a map like this with collector-style gameplay. It's the deeper dead ends that disrupts a player from conquering on through. I only count two of those -- Lyon and Stuttgart. Resolve those as you might, but the other 'dead ends' are fine in my mind.
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    airplanes connects all foreign cities
    helicopters connects all touristic resorts

That changes gameplay quite a bit; it turns each set of collectible territories into a continent of sorts. It'd make the bonuses for external cities and resorts easier to take and harder to hold -- I think that's a negative effect.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby pamoa on Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:18 am

sure it change the gameplay
what I see is that my proposition make it more like a whirlpool :lol:
but I must admit I'm not good at evaluating the real impact of the 2 options
maybe should I make a poll
even if until now I had very few answers
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:46 pm

pamoa wrote:sure it change the gameplay
what I see is that my proposition make it more like a whirlpool :lol:
but I must admit I'm not good at evaluating the real impact of the 2 options
maybe should I make a poll
even if until now I had very few answers


I don't think a whirlpool is really what you want to go for -- then it becomes more a contest of luck than strategy. You've already got a fairly open map and there'll probably be a good amount of back-and-forth as it is.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby pamoa on Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:00 am

so I should leave it as it is ?
for me it's fine because it was the original design
I don't really like maps where you always have to watch your back to prevent any intruders :lol:
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:52 pm

A couple of major issues have shown up in cartographer discussions:

A) The number of territories in the map, 47, means that in 3-player games, each player starts with 15 territories, which gives the first player a significant advantage. The nearest territory counts that mitigate such advantages are 44 and 52; 39-43 and 53 do as well.

B) More importantly, in 3-player games, it's more likely than not that some player will start the game with a French cities bonus and that some player (possibly the same one) will start with a foreign cities bonus. Moreover, it is guaranteed that at least one player will start out with a resort bonus. This is not a good thing for game balance.

As far as solutions for B... It's hard to say straight away. Maybe increasing the number of territories needed for a bonus; decreasing the bonus values; and some combination of starting positions. Coming up with a scheme that maximizes the start fairness for this map (without changing the gameplay radically) stands to be no mean feat.
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Re: SWITZERLAND [D] v05 22nov

Postby pamoa on Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:53 am

I'm sorry but I'm not good about gameplay issue
and as english is not my mother tongue I'm not sure to understand your last sentence
do you see any solution about what you said
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