Conquer Club

Conquer Club, a free online multiplayer variation of a popular world domination board game.
https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/

Berlin 1961 [Quenched]

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=358&t=24956

Page 5 of 14

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:13 am
by Incandenza
I would go with option 2 with 2 neutrals on the airfields. I also think that perhaps the northernmost western checkpoint could be moved from wedding to reinickdorf. That way the bombardment could plausibly be used to break the french bonus. Plus it lessens the importance of moabit just a touch.

Of course, the downside is that now none of the western checkpoints are mutually reinforcing, which is a problem... the potential solution to which might be to move the southernmost checkpoints down a territory (to neukolen and triptow). The upside would be to alleviate the clogging in the middle of the map and allow for more east-west invasion routes, plus it solves the whole 'holding russia with only two borders' problem... the downside is that none of the border crossings are mutually reinforcing, thus the bonus would have to be adjusted upward by at least one army.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:24 pm
by oaktown
Latest large map...
Image

And a first stab at a small map...
Image

What's new:
• I've nuked the AA gun and gone back to the tank, which can bombard western checkpoints; I think this makes more sense strategically.
• I've tweaked some territories to add more space, and dropped army shadows in to see how things fit; some are still a bit small. Army counts are just for checking visibility, and aren't pretended to be centered.
• And I lost the freestanding wall - it didn't fit the image.
• Arrows became ugly bridge... to do list.

Still to do:
• tweak smallish territories a bit more.
• Build better bridges (suggestions?)
• Come up with something for the two non-river border crossings I forgot to restore when I deleted all of the arrows.
• Clean up sonme of the grunge on the text in places where it becomes hard to read on the small map, like Westend and the legend.
• XML.
• Wall looks like crap in the smaller version - that's fixable, but I only just noticed it.
• Decide on starting army count for neutrals - now that they can't be bombarded I'm thinking three would be fine, as it wouldn't give early starters an easy card in the first round.
• Many other things, I suspect.

And this is just for some flavor...
Image

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:33 am
by SarumanRingLord
why can't soviet T-34's bombard their own checkpoint emplacements? would be historically inaccurate to have them be hypothetically betraying each other, but it makes sense...

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:25 am
by mibi
this is looking good. i think the french, brittish, etc labels should be a top layer, not on the bottom.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:32 am
by oaktown
SarumanRingLord wrote:why can't soviet T-34's bombard their own checkpoint emplacements? would be historically inaccurate to have them be hypothetically betraying each other, but it makes sense...

Sure, technically you'd think the tank would be able to hit anything within a certain radius, but the idea behind putting the tank there in the first place was to give an additional advantage to a player who finds himself holding the russian side of the wall where there is no airfield supply bonus. I see it coming into play when you hold all of the checkpoints, and you can hit any of the western checkpoint at will without having to have a huge stack at all three russian checkpoints.

We've gone around in circles with this for the past two weeks, and I really think this is a nice way to go. One problem that I've just noticed, however, is that you could now leave the tank neutral and use it to help hold the southern half of the russian sector, which means you've only got one border to hold. i think I'll be moving the Treptow-Licthenberg bridge north and make it a Treptow-Friedrichshain bridge, which has the additional advantage of giving the holder of the southern russian sector direct access to the checkpoints.

mibi wrote:this is looking good. i think the french, brittish, etc labels should be a top layer, not on the bottom.

I can play with that... they do kinda get muddled in the small map.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:43 am
by oaktown
Image

Some little changes as promised in last to-do list...
• I made the bridge a wee bit smaller, and grunged them. Their shape is growing on me, and it's a pretty close approximation to the bridges you see on military maps of the era.
• gave some of the smaller territories a bit more space - tiergarten, etc - and played with placement of titles and circles in a couple of others to make things fit nicely.
• region titles have been brought up a layer as suggested... they now sit over the borders and rivers, but still under the more important territory titles.
• cleaned up over-grunged areas - westend title, legend text, border along the top.
• opened up wall crossings... it's not fancy but i think it's clear. There's enough going on already that it's best to err on the side of simplicity when it comes to play issues.

Still to do:
• XML
• Whatever else you guys throw at me.

more flavor:
Image

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:50 am
by reverend_kyle
I'm not sure there's much left to do.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:57 am
by gimil
At hte momnet i find it rather dificult to spot the tanks planes, troops ect. Maybe add a little color to these to relate them to hte legends.

like a soft glow or stroke of red to the easter checkpoint guard and one of hte legends guards.

you know what i mean?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:58 am
by gimil
Also i think the wall and the rivers need to be made a little more noticeable

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:12 am
by reverend_kyle
gimil wrote:Also i think the wall and the rivers need to be made a little more noticeable


I mulled over this idea, but I wasn't sure how to do it so I figured that oaktown wouldn't want to try too much to do it when it's fine as is.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:37 am
by Incandenza
I dunno about the color concept... I can see the guards and tank just fine...

What I am a bit concerned about are the non-river-crossing checkpoints. I get it, but I've been following this map, and I would hazard that making maps pretty idiot-proof is a major goal of the foundry. So I'd say either the fact that you can attack through the checkpoints needs to be made more clear (with some sort of arrow concept... I'm crap at specific graphics ideas, as I can no more figure out photoshop than I can make people's heads explode with my mind), or the wall itself needs to be darkened. I'd be more inclined to the second option.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:59 am
by cairnswk
only one tank in the eastern sector oaktown?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:04 am
by mibi
reverend_kyle wrote:
gimil wrote:Also i think the wall and the rivers need to be made a little more noticeable


I mulled over this idea, but I wasn't sure how to do it so I figured that oaktown wouldn't want to try too much to do it when it's fine as is.


i agree.. the wall should be more noticable... perhaps a fill.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:25 am
by lt_oddball
I hope you'll give the map some colouring ?
It is rather dull now.

I understand the "50's" effect that you would like to give..but that is useless for gameboards.

(and really, there WERE colours in the 50's.. your parents can vouch for that) :wink:

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:58 am
by oaktown
Thanks for the recent feedback, all.

cairnswk wrote:only one tank in the eastern sector oaktown?

if there were more than one wouldn't it be redundant?

Color: I've been working for the past month to get the monotone look right - I don't think I'm adding color now.

Visibility of graphics: I'm more or less content with the river (it's seems pretty self-explanatory), and personally I think the tanks and planes are if anything too obvious - they had a stronger stroke to start but people complained. I do, however, remain unsettled with the wall and the crossings - I just stuck the crossings in quickly because I'd accidentally dropped them in the last update. I'll give this more thought, and I have some ideas I can play with when i find the time.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:37 am
by yeti_c
How about making each airfield able to attack each other - that would eliminate the bottle neck on the left hand side?

C.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:51 am
by Coleman
yeti_c wrote:How about making each airfield able to attack each other - that would eliminate the bottle neck on the left hand side?

C.
I agree with this one, if you do that I think it may be a good time to add a small map and xml.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:05 pm
by oaktown
yeti_c wrote:How about making each airfield able to attack each other - that would eliminate the bottle neck on the left hand side?

Honestly, I don't like it, for three reasons:

1. We've gone through a lot of little tweaks to get to a point where the bonuses make sense given the size and defensibility of the regions. If the airfields can attack each other you are adding a border to each region, and i think we'd need to rethink the western bonuses again. In turn this may also require adding an internal attack route into the russian sector to make it balance. Those who have followed this map know what a trap changing the bonus structure can become.

2. The idea behind the airfields to begin with was to approximate their value as supply routes, not as military bases, during the years of Berlin's occupation by western/russian forces. Of course, nothing in this game can be entirely true to the past, but I like the idea of trying to capture the right spirit.

3. We've already been through this.

If somebody has a more wholistic approach to changing the airfields i'd be open to considering it - keep in mind that changing one thing alters everything about how the map plays.

XML on this is my next project.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:35 pm
by unriggable
Airfields start neutral right?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:47 pm
by oaktown
unriggable wrote:Airfields start neutral right?

Correct... earlier when we were working with a model in which they could be bombarded by the artillery we were assigning them a neutral starting value of two, but now that they can't be whacked from a distance I'm happy with starting them at three.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:51 pm
by oaktown
yeti_c wrote:that would eliminate the bottle neck on the left hand side?

yeti, let me know specifically where you identify a bottleneck and I'll see if something else can't be done about it.

By bottleneck, are you actually referring to a dead-end? Because i see three dead-ends: brit, american, and russian; opening up the airfields to more attacks only addresses one of them.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:21 am
by Incandenza
I'm with oaktown on this one... after all that's been said, I can't see a compelling reason to have the airfields attack each other. If there's a bit of a bottleneck, it's that between west and east berlin (as historically it should be), which I still think could be alleviated somewhat, but if I'm in the minority on this one I'll stfu. :D

Color and tank are fine.

I'll be very curious to see how the armies look against the map.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:19 am
by oaktown
Incandenza wrote:I'll be very curious to see how the armies look against the map.

There are some quick and dirty samples on page 7.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:51 pm
by oaktown
XML, if anybody out there really cares. Ran the tests and worked out errors and warnings... the six remaining warnings are duplicate bonuses, which is intended. I obviously haven't touched coordinates because the map is still subject to change, but the good stuff is in there - bombardments, neutral starts, etc.

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<map>

<title>Berlin</title>
<smallwidth>600</smallwidth>
<smallheight>440</smallheight>
<largewidth>798</largewidth>
<largeheight>585</largeheight>
<filetype>jpg</filetype>

<continent>
<name>Russian Sector</name>
<bonus>5</bonus>
<components>
<component>Rahnsdorf</component>
<component>M&#x00FC;ggelheim</component>
<component>Gr&#x00FC;nau</component>
<component>Treptow</component>
<component>K&#x00F6;penick</component>
<component>Hellersdorf</component>
<component>Marzahn</component>
<component>Lichtenberg</component>
<component>Friedrichshain</component>
<component>Hohensch&#x00F6;nhausen</component>
<component>Wei&#x00DF;ensee</component>
<component>Buch</component>
<component>Prenzlauer Berg</component>
<component>Pankow</component>
<component>Mitte</component>
</components>
<required>8</required>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>American Sector</name>
<bonus>3</bonus>
<components>
<component>Britz-Rudow</component>
<component>Neuk&#x00F6;len</component>
<component>Kreuzberg</component>
<component>Tempelhof</component>
<component>Marienfelde</component>
<component>Steglitz</component>
<component>Zehlendorf</component>
<component>Sch&#x00F6;neberg</component>
<component>Dahlem</component>
<component>Nikolasee</component>
<component>Wannsee</component>
</components>
<required>6</required>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>British Sector</name>
<bonus>2</bonus>
<components>
<component>Tiergarten</component>
<component>Moabit</component>
<component>Wilmersdorf</component>
<component>Grunewald</component>
<component>Charlottenburg</component>
<component>Siemenstadt</component>
<component>Westend</component>
<component>Spandau</component>
<component>Gatow</component>
</components>
<required>5</required>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>French Sector</name>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<components>
<component>Wedding</component>
<component>Tegel</component>
<component>Reinickendorf</component>
<component>Frohnau</component>
<component>Heiligensee</component>
</components>
<required>3</required>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>Russian Checkpoints</name>
<bonus>2</bonus>
<components>
<component>Pankow</component>
<component>Mitte</component>
<component>Friedrichshain</component>
</components>
</continent>
<continent>
<name>Western Checkpoints</name>
<bonus>2</bonus>
<components>
<component>Wedding</component>
<component>Moabit</component>
<component>Kreuzberg</component>
</components>
</continent>

<territory>
<name>Rahnsdorf</name>
<borders>
<border>M&#x00FC;ggelheim</border>
<border>K&#x00F6;penick</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>M&#x00FC;ggelheim</name>
<borders>
<border>Rahnsdorf</border>
<border>K&#x00F6;penick</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>K&#x00F6;penick</name>
<borders>
<border>Rahnsdorf</border>
<border>M&#x00FC;ggelheim</border>
<border>Hellersdorf</border>
<border>Marzahn</border>
<border>Lichtenberg</border>
<border>Treptow</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Hellersdorf</name>
<borders>
<border>Marzahn</border>
<border>K&#x00F6;penick</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Marzahn</name>
<borders>
<border>K&#x00F6;penick</border>
<border>Hellersdorf</border>
<border>Hohensch&#x00F6;nhausen</border>
<border>Lichtenberg</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Lichtenberg</name>
<borders>
<border>Marzahn</border>
<border>Hohensch&#x00F6;nhausen</border>
<border>K&#x00F6;penick</border>
<border>Friedrichshain</border>
<border>Prenzlauer Berg</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Treptow</name>
<borders>
<border>Gr&#x00FC;nau</border>
<border>K&#x00F6;penick</border>
<border>Friedrichshain</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Gr&#x00FC;nau</name>
<borders>
<border>Treptow</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Hohensch&#x00F6;nhausen</name>
<borders>
<border>Marzahn</border>
<border>Lichtenberg</border>
<border>Prenzlauer Berg</border>
<border>Wei&#x00DF;ensee</border>
</borders>
<bombardments>
<bombardment>Wedding</bombardment>
<bombardment>Moabit</bombardment>
<bombardment>Kreuzberg</bombardment>
</bombardments>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Wei&#x00DF;ensee</name>
<borders>
<border>Hohensch&#x00F6;nhausen</border>
<border>Prenzlauer Berg</border>
<border>Buch</border>
<border>Pankow</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Buch</name>
<borders>
<border>Pankow</border>
<border>Wei&#x00DF;ensee</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Pankow</name>
<borders>
<border>Buch</border>
<border>Prenzlauer Berg</border>
<border>Wei&#x00DF;ensee</border>
<border>Wedding</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Prenzlauer Berg</name>
<borders>
<border>Pankow</border>
<border>Mitte</border>
<border>Wei&#x00DF;ensee</border>
<border>Hohensch&#x00F6;nhausen</border>
<border>Lichtenberg</border>
<border>Friedrichshain</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Friedrichshain</name>
<borders>
<border>Mitte</border>
<border>Lichtenberg</border>
<border>Treptow</border>
<border>Prenzlauer Berg</border>
<border>Kreuzberg</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Mitte</name>
<borders>
<border>Prenzlauer Berg</border>
<border>Friedrichshain</border>
<border>Moabit</border>
<border>Kreuzberg</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Kreuzberg</name>
<borders>
<border>Neuk&#x00F6;len</border>
<border>Tempelhof</border>
<border>Sch&#x00F6;neberg</border>
<border>Mitte</border>
<border>Friedrichshain</border>
<border>Tiergarten</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Neuk&#x00F6;len</name>
<borders>
<border>Kreuzberg</border>
<border>Tempelhof</border>
<border>Britz-Rudow</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Britz-Rudow</name>
<borders>
<border>Tempelhof</border>
<border>Neuk&#x00F6;len</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Tempelhof</name>
<borders>
<border>Neuk&#x00F6;len</border>
<border>Kreuzberg</border>
<border>Britz-Rudow</border>
<border>Marienfelde</border>
<border>Steglitz</border>
<border>Sch&#x00F6;neberg</border>
</borders>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<neutral>3</neutral>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Marienfelde</name>
<borders>
<border>Tempelhof</border>
<border>Steglitz</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Steglitz</name>
<borders>
<border>Marienfelde</border>
<border>Tempelhof</border>
<border>Sch&#x00F6;neberg</border>
<border>Dahlem</border>
<border>Zehlendorf</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Sch&#x00F6;neberg</name>
<borders>
<border>Kreuzberg</border>
<border>Tempelhof</border>
<border>Steglitz</border>
<border>Dahlem</border>
<border>Tiergarten</border>
<border>Wilmersdorf</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Dahlem</name>
<borders>
<border>Wilmersdorf</border>
<border>Grunewald</border>
<border>Sch&#x00F6;neberg</border>
<border>Steglitz</border>
<border>Zehlendorf</border>
<border>Nikolasee</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Zehlendorf</name>
<borders>
<border>Dahlem</border>
<border>Steglitz</border>
<border>Nikolasee</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Nikolasee</name>
<borders>
<border>Zehlendorf</border>
<border>Dahlem</border>
<border>Grunewald</border>
<border>Wannsee</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Wannsee</name>
<borders>
<border>Nikolasee</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Gatow</name>
<borders>
<border>Spandau</border>
</borders>
<bonus>1</bonus>
<neutral>3</neutral>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Spandau</name>
<borders>
<border>Gatow</border>
<border>Siemenstadt</border>
<border>Westend</border>
<border>Heiligensee</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Siemenstadt</name>
<borders>
<border>Spandau</border>
<border>Charlottenburg</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Westend</name>
<borders>
<border>Grunewald</border>
<border>Spandau</border>
<border>Charlottenburg</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx></smallx>
<smally></smally>
<largex></largex>
<largey></largey>
</coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Charlottenburg</name>
<borders>
<border>Grunewald</border>
<border>Tiergarten</border>
<border>Westend</border>
<border>Moabit</border>
<border>Siemenstadt</border>
<border>Wilmersdorf</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:05 am
by yeti_c
oaktown wrote:
yeti_c wrote:that would eliminate the bottle neck on the left hand side?

yeti, let me know specifically where you identify a bottleneck and I'll see if something else can't be done about it.

By bottleneck, are you actually referring to a dead-end? Because i see three dead-ends: brit, american, and russian; opening up the airfields to more attacks only addresses one of them.


I was referring to the Dead-end that Incandenza identified... between Gatow and Wannsee...

He said you could put a bridge between the two - I thought that this might be a way round it... feel free to ignore though!!!

C.
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