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Re: Northern Europe <v.2> p1

Postby natty dread on Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:52 pm

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Check the previous version to see how I will colour the legend. The latest version's legend is just to show the style that the legend is going to have. I didn't finish the legend of the latest version because I'm still unsure of the bonuses for the continents. The first version had a rough guesstimate of the bonuses, but I'd like some professional opinions on how to arrange the bonuses before the I finish the legend for the next version, and when I do that I will do the colour codes for the legend again.

Besides, the bonus colours have changed. And I might still have to change them...

So.
Any ideas for the continent bonuses?

I don't have a spreadsheet software installed (I think) so could someone run the bonus calculator spreadsheet for me?
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Re: Northern Europe <v.2> p1

Postby soundman on Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:12 am

Ok I get it now. Here's a link to a couple bonus spreadsheets: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=466&t=1410 They're towards the bottom. :)
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Re: Northern Europe <v.2> p1

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:54 am

I don't have a spreadsheet software installed (I think) so could someone run the bonus calculator spreadsheet for me?


please? :)
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Re: Northern Europe <v.2> p1

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:04 am

Vewsion thwee

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Re: Northern Europe <v.3> p1,2

Postby grandin on Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:46 am

Great start, natty!

A couple of suggestions:

Coloring/style;
In my opinion, the map is way to dark. As porkenbeans said, the water needs to be contrasted from the land. I also think that the land areas should have a more 'natural' feel to the colors.
The color scheme combined with the style of the legend makes the whole thing feel like an old worn-down soviet military base.

Regions, Sweden;
Splitting Sweden into only two regions might work, but not where it is done at the moment. Ask a swede where the northern parts of sweden begin, and he might say anything from Gävle to Mora or Sundsvall, but not many would agree that it is as far north as you've drawn the line - and no one would agree that Sveg is in the south of Sweden.
It would be more accurate to use the commonly accepted region of Norrland

The best option would be to use three regions, namely Norrland, Svealand and Götaland

//Really looking forward to someone actually finishing a Norden map :D
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Re: Northern Europe <v.3> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:21 am

grandin wrote:Great start, natty!


Thanks :)

A couple of suggestions:

Coloring/style;
In my opinion, the map is way to dark. As porkenbeans said, the water needs to be contrasted from the land. I also think that the land areas should have a more 'natural' feel to the colors.


I already made the land lighter in the latest update, also the sea is now darker. I've also added a slight drop shadow around the land to further contrast it from the water.

The color scheme combined with the style of the legend makes the whole thing feel like an old worn-down soviet military base.


Well, that's kinda what I was going for! :D

In all seriousness, I know the graphical style is a bit unorthodox and different from other maps, but I don't think that's necessarily a flaw. I want the map to stand out with the graphical style.

Regions, Sweden;
Splitting Sweden into only two regions might work, but not where it is done at the moment. Ask a swede where the northern parts of sweden begin, and he might say anything from Gävle to Mora or Sundsvall, but not many would agree that it is as far north as you've drawn the line - and no one would agree that Sveg is in the south of Sweden.


Well, yes, I agree, but gameplay-wise it was the best choice. As you see I didn't go by any geographical regions, because I didn't want the continents to be too unbalanced. I don't want to make an Asia on this map, a huge chunk of land which nobody wants because it's too hard to defend. Splitting it to three parts would make for too much small bonus areas, since I already have three very small bonus areas.

It would be more accurate to use the commonly accepted region of Norrland

The best option would be to use three regions, namely Norrland, Svealand and Götaland

//Really looking forward to someone actually finishing a Norden map :D


Like I said, sometimes it's necessary to sacrifice geographical/historical accuracy in favor of better gameplay. After all, this is a gaming site, not an educational one :D

But I very much appreciate your feedback, and I will look into it and see if I can implement some of the suggestions in the next update.
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Re: Northern Europe <v.3> p1,2

Postby jefjef on Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:11 am

I'm sorry but I just don't get the name.

Estonia isn't considered part of Europe. Denmark is barely but is also part of Scandanavia & Nordic countries. Iceland is Nordic.

Confused. But anyway looks like you have a good start.
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Re: Northern Europe <v.3> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:42 am

Estonia isn't considered part of Europe. Denmark is barely but is also part of Scandanavia & Nordic countries. Iceland is Nordic.


Let me guess... you're an American? :lol:

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Estonia is very much a part of europe, it even belongs to the European Union. As is & does Denmark. Iceland is part of the Nordic countries along with Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland, and the Nordic countries are considered to be a part of europe. All of them except Norway belong to the EU.

I named the map Northern Europe because it sounds better than "The Nordic Countries and Estonia", ok? :D
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Re: Northern Europe <v.3> p1,2

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:49 am

This map has a long way to go visually. Mechanically, the game play we'll have to delve into...


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Re: Northern Europe <v.3> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:06 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:This map has a long way to go visually.


Of course it does, it's version #3 for gob's sake... :D

Mechanically, the game play we'll have to delve into...


As always, I would love to hear your ideas and insight. Let me pick your brain! :)
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Re: Northern Europe <v.3> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:23 am

Ok, I've been thinking about the bonuses. I came up with something like this:

Iceland +2

North Norway +4
South Norway +3
All Norway +8 total

North Sweden +5
South Sweden +5
All Sweden +12 total

Denmark +2

North Finland +4
South Finland +4
All Finland +9 total

Estonia +2

And a +1 autodeploy for each capital.

So, what do you think? I think the supercontinent bonuses would fit well in here.
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Re: Northern Europe <v.4> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:46 am

Version 4

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Re: Northern Europe <v.4> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:44 pm

I was also thinking of adding another bonus: "hold all capitals for +5"

Or, maybe get rid of the +1 autodeploy for capitals, and instead make a stepped bonus system for holding capitals. Like:

3 capitals +1
4 capitals +2
5 capitals +3
6 capitals +5

Or maybe a victory condition, hold all capitals to win the game?

I'd like to do something with the capitals, anyway.
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Re: Northern Europe <v.4> p1,2

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:47 pm

Some starting thoughts:

  • the texture doesnt' work very well, specially with that font. the map looks a little too futuristic. Not the best choice for this map, your map is a big coloured harlequin; where are snow, woods, lakes?
  • I think you have to develope the map with a regional perspective, rather than basing the gameplay on cities, but it's just a personal thought.
  • The iceland inset could be placed a bit more on the left because i don't think you can use that unused space in the left corner.
  • The sea. [-( it's very dark and with land textures it creates a sort of "Northern Europe on acid".
  • Aland, it's not clear if it is a part of south finland or south sweden.
  • Not sure about the link between Tallin and Helsinki (both with a +1 autodeploy)
  • Bonuses (values with autodeploy):
    • Denmark +1 (+2)
    • Estonia +2 (+3)
    • Iceland +1 (+2)
    • N.Norway +3
    • S.Norway +3 (+4)
    • N.Sweden +4
    • S.Sweden +4 (+5)
    • N.Finland +4
    • S.Finland +4 (+5)
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Re: Northern Europe <v.4> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:58 pm

Thanks, that's given me lots of thought. I think I will modify the land texture somewhat, but I don't want to touch the sea too much, because IMO it quite accurately represents the look of the baltic sea. The baltic sea is a very dark and sinister looking sea.

I think you have to develope the map with a regional perspective, rather than basing the gameplay on cities, but it's just a personal thought.


Any reason for this? This is a region of europe that not many people are familiar with. I thought that the cities would at least be somewhat more recognizable than some obscure regions that nobody knows, except the few people that live in that area...

The iceland inset could be placed a bit more on the left because i don't think you can use that unused space in the left corner.


Yeah, I was thinking of that too. Will do for the next update.

Aland, it's not clear if it is a part of south finland or south sweden.


Finland, but I'll try to make it more clear. Moving the army circle should do it?

Not sure about the link between Tallin and Helsinki (both with a +1 autodeploy)


This I intend to keep as it is. In reality there is a ferry connection between those cities, which is used by lots of people. So it will stay.

Bonuses (values with autodeploy):

* Denmark +1 (+2)
* Estonia +2 (+3)
* Iceland +1 (+2)
* N.Norway +3
* S.Norway +3 (+4)
* N.Sweden +4
* S.Sweden +4 (+5)
* N.Finland +4
* S.Finland +4 (+5)


Thanks. Appreciated very much. Are these from the bonus calculator or your own estimate?
Why +1 on denmark when it has to defend 2 borders? Is it because it is the smallest "continent" with only 3 territories?

Also, how do you feel about the supercontinent bonuses? Where you get additional +1 for holding both norways or both finlands, and an additional +2 for holding both swedens?

As always, you give extraordinarily useful feedback, which I appreciate. Thanks.
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Re: Northern Europe <v.4> p1,2

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:23 am

natty_dread wrote:Any reason for this? This is a region of europe that not many people are familiar with. I thought that the cities would at least be somewhat more recognizable than some obscure regions that nobody knows, except the few people that live in that area...


no reason, just a personal preference :)
And yours is a good point.

natty_dread wrote:I don't want to touch the sea too much, because IMO it quite accurately represents the look of the baltic sea. The baltic sea is a very dark and sinister looking sea.


i trust you Image ;)
Maybe with the new texture it will look different.

natty_dread wrote:Are these from the bonus calculator or your own estimate?
Why +1 on denmark when it has to defend 2 borders? Is it because it is the smallest "continent" with only 3 territories?

Also, how do you feel about the supercontinent bonuses? Where you get additional +1 for holding both norways or both finlands, and an additional +2 for holding both swedens?


yes, bonus calculator. (btw, if you don't have a program to open the xls file you can downlaod openoffice, it's free)
usually you have to adjust values and keep in mind that calculator understimate the bonuses in the middle.
danmark is a fair +2 but the +1 autodeploy on one border should make it too strong, specially in the early rounds...(i think :mrgreen: )
And yes +2 for all sweden and +1 for all finland look good.
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Re: Northern Europe <v.4> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:35 am

danmark is a fair +2 but the +1 autodeploy on one border should make it too strong, specially in the early rounds...(i think :mrgreen: )


Well, what if I were to get rid of the +1 autodeploy for capitals, and instead make them a collection bonus?

like thus:

3 capitals +1
4 capitals +2
5 capitals +3
6 capitals +5
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Re: Northern Europe <v.5> p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:42 pm

Ok here's two possible new versions.

v.5 - Old ocean, no glow around land

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v.5a - Ocean modified a bit, glow around land, land colour saturation reduced

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I didn't change the bonuses yet. I'll do that later...

Anyway, which looks better? Or, if you like some things in one version and some things in the other, I can combine them for the next version.

Feedback plox! :D

edit. made another one:

V.5b - otherwise same as 5a except different ocean, flags added

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Re: Northern Europe <v.5> p1,3

Postby soundman on Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:19 pm

Flags don't seem to fit. You should pull Iceland down some so the space is even with the left side. I think I like 5a better...
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Re: Northern Europe <v.5> p1,3

Postby natty dread on Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:30 pm

soundman wrote:Flags don't seem to fit. You should pull Iceland down some so the space is even with the left side. I think I like 5a better...


Hmm, down with the flags then.

Aah, crap, it's such a pain moving that iceland... do you know how many layers there is, which I need to align? Paint.net doesn't even allow moving multiple layers at once, unless you merge them and then there's no way to separate them again... I'll probably do it, just wanted to vent, as it is a pain in the ass...

Yeah I'll probably go with 5a, but I'm going to decrease the saturation on that ocean a bit, it seems a bit too bright now that I look at it...


Also, someone said the font of the territory names is not good, so I made samples of some different fonts to choose from:

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First one is current font- I think it was Tahoma.

2nd is Batang with an outline.

3rd is Dotum with bold, and a drop shadow.

4th is Palatino Linotype with an outline.
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Re: Northern Europe <v.5> p1,3

Postby whitestazn88 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:06 am

looks pretty cool, but the only thing i'll say about it is that i don't know if northern europe is a good title or not... i'm not a huge geography buff, and i don't quite know what constitutes northern europe, but i feel like you can't have estonia w/o latvia & lithuania (maybe it's just a personal reason...) and what about russia? doesn't it go just as far north as scandinavia?

just something to think about. i don't think it would really be a big issue if the title was kept or not.
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Re: Northern Europe <v.5> p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:21 am

whitestazn88 wrote:i feel like you can't have estonia w/o latvia & lithuania (maybe it's just a personal reason...)


I included Estonia, because it's culturally very close to Finland. They're almost the same people, the language is almost the same... Latvia and Lithuania, not so much. Besides, that's where the legend is :D

and what about russia? doesn't it go just as far north as scandinavia?


Yes, but Russia is not considered to be a part of Europe.

just something to think about. i don't think it would really be a big issue if the title was kept or not.


Well yeah. Thanks for your interest though, and I have a feeling I'll get to explain the title quite a few times before this map is done :lol:

Me wrote:I named the map Northern Europe because it sounds better than "The Nordic Countries and Estonia", ok?
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Re: Northern Europe <v.5> p1,3

Postby whitestazn88 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:23 am

natty_dread wrote:
whitestazn88 wrote:i feel like you can't have estonia w/o latvia & lithuania (maybe it's just a personal reason...)


I included Estonia, because it's culturally very close to Finland. They're almost the same people, the language is almost the same... Latvia and Lithuania, not so much. Besides, that's where the legend is :D

and what about russia? doesn't it go just as far north as scandinavia?


Yes, but Russia is not considered to be a part of Europe.

just something to think about. i don't think it would really be a big issue if the title was kept or not.


Well yeah. Thanks for your interest though, and I have a feeling I'll get to explain the title quite a few times before this map is done :lol:

Me wrote:I named the map Northern Europe because it sounds better than "The Nordic Countries and Estonia", ok?


russia isn't part of europe?
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Re: Northern Europe <v.5> p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:31 am

No, it's not. It belongs to Asia. Hey, look at the classic map! Where is Russia? Not in Europe... :D
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Re: Northern Europe <v.5> p1,3

Postby Incandenza on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:20 am

Visually, it's coming along.

Thematically... well, it's kind of an odd grouping of countries, it's sorta like "popular American conception of Scandanavia and oh yeah Estonia too". Your stated reason for including Estonia is that it shares a lot culturally with Finland... well, then, why is Iceland there? It's only nominally a Scandinavian country, much in the same way that y is only sometimes a vowel, and it's such a singular little culture that I'd be surprised if there was much in common between the average Icelander and the average Swede (tho a Bjork-ABBA mashup wouldn't be devoid of entertainment).

I can also tell you that the unsexy title isn't doing you any favors (plus, when I think of northern Europe, places like northern Germany and northern Poland spring to mind much more readily than the various countries you have arrayed here).

And now that I've totally shit in your punchbowl, I'll say that you clearly have some talent, I just don't think you've found the right killer project yet. You could probably navigate this map into the final forge with a great deal more work, but you'll end up with a pretty run-of-the-mill CC map. And I've already made clear the risks you run pushing forward with Proteins 101... I dunno, it's just rare to see much in the way of graphic oomph in the drafting subforum, but here in the service of a map that, personally, leaves me with a sort of "meh" feeling. It's sort of a European version of the USA Map Pack, which (no offense to wids) I loathe.
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