Re: RAIL ASIA [1.11.12] QUENCHED

[Victor Sullivan]

Lol, cairns, did you forget something...again?

-Sully

No i don't think so?

I don't mean to D-press you, but it seems you may have overlooked a D-tail

-Sully

I've dropped the D bonus to +4...so what is it?

Lol, the graphic still says 5.

-Sully

[cairnswk]

So now, back to topic.....

[cairnswk]

Lol, cairns, did you forget something...again?

-Sully

No i don't think so?

I don't mean to D-press you, but it seems you may have overlooked a D-tail

-Sully

I've dropped the D bonus to +4...so what is it?

Lol, the graphic still says 5.

-Sully

My graphic is showing D4, perhaps check your cache Sully.

[cairnswk]

Version 14

[Victor Sullivan]

It's still showing as 5 for me, and I cleared my cache...

-Sully

[cairnswk]

It's still showing as 5 for me, and I cleared my cache...

-Sully

We are talking D - N Chinese +4...yours is showing as +5, definitely a cache thing, as i uploaded the change on V14 sometime ago while i was watching Mayerling.

[MarshalNey]

The bonus values themselves all look good to me now, very nice solution for splitting up the Chinese railway, love the extra station.

A few things still that concern me...

There are no neutral starting regions now, yes? If so, what's the chance of dropping BJN Station, Rail O, TBL Station, Rail E or Rail H (in that order of concern)? Figure the chances for 3 players and that should give you a worst case, and if necessary go from there. I'm really most concerned with 2p, 3p & 4p games.

The Rail G stop at KUN station is miscolored.

If the Chinese economy collapses, how will people be able to enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart ever again? (more of a question for isaiah, sorry)

-- Marshal Ney

PS Mine shows D4

[isaiah40]

If the Chinese economy collapses, how will people be able to enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart ever again? (more of a question for isaiah, sorry)

-- Marshal Ney

PS Mine shows D4

Well, since our economy collapsed a few years before, Wal-Marts are not around! LOL!

N-Chinese on mine shows D5 and I pressed F5.

[Victor Sullivan]

Yeah, there's something seriously wrong here... There's this voice that says everything I do now, and I don't know why! It's sooooo annoying!! Gah! To Bug Reports, I guess, though it's nothing to do with CC, really.

-Sully

[cairnswk]

The bonus values themselves all look good to me now, very nice solution for splitting up the Chinese railway, love the extra station.

Excellent, glad you like it.

A few things still that concern me...
There are no neutral starting regions now, yes? If so, what's the chance of dropping BJN Station, Rail O, TBL Station, Rail E or Rail H (in that order of concern)? Figure the chances for 3 players and that should give you a worst case, and if necessary go from there. I'm really most concerned with 2p, 3p & 4p games.

It is still possible to add three more stations that won't affect the bonuses on Russian (2) and W Chinese lines (1) that will allow you to have an extra three stations so you can have three neutrals on BJN, Rail O, and TBL, and still have the 80 golden number.
Is that a solution?

The Rail G stop at KUN station is miscolored.

I'll fix that.

If the Chinese economy collapses, how will people be able to enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart ever again? (more of a question for isaiah, sorry)
-- Marshal Ney
PS Mine shows D4

By getting the US economy going again in production, then we can be supplier to you for commodities. LOL

[ender516]

Starting positions can often be used to break up small zones (continents) eliminating the chance of dropping a bonus, so you may not need to add more regions (territories).

By the way, does anyone enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart?

[cairnswk]

Starting positions can often be used to break up small zones (continents) eliminating the chance of dropping a bonus, so you may not need to add more regions (territories).

Suggestions for those starts would be greatly appreciated ender516.

By the way, does anyone enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart?

We don't have them here so i can't comment.

[isaiah40]

Now N-Chinese shows 4 after I logged off last night and logged back in today.

[Victor Sullivan]

Now N-Chinese shows 4 after I logged off last night and logged back in today.

Hey, me too! Yay!

-Sully

[cairnswk]

Now N-Chinese shows 4 after I logged off last night and logged back in today.

...Hey, me too! Yay!
-Sully

Yay! We're all on the same page now.

[ender516]

Starting positions can often be used to break up small zones (continents) eliminating the chance of dropping a bonus, so you may not need to add more regions (territories).

Suggestions for those starts would be greatly appreciated ender516.

I will try to whip something up in the next day or so.

By the way, does anyone enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart?

We don't have them here so i can't comment.

They are very much a mixed blessing to a local economy.

By the way, I seem to be on the same page as well, as far as the N-Chinese thing goes. Odd that the caching seemed to depend on the login. In fact, I guess I was timed out by CC, but I didn't close my browser, although I did hibernate my machine.

[cairnswk]

Starting positions can often be used to break up small zones (continents) eliminating the chance of dropping a bonus, so you may not need to add more regions (territories).

Suggestions for those starts would be greatly appreciated ender516.

I will try to whip something up in the next day or so.

Thanks ender516

By the way, does anyone enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart?

We don't have them here so i can't comment.

They are very much a mixed blessing to a local economy.

By the way, I seem to be on the same page as well, as far as the N-Chinese thing goes. Odd that the caching seemed to depend on the login. In fact, I guess I was timed out by CC, but I didn't close my browser, although I did hibernate my machine.

Yes it happens for me also.

[ender516]

Okay, I haven't made as much progress here as I had hoped, but let's at least look at this chart below. It's a screenshot of MrBenn's Bonus Probabilty Calculator filled in to represent the Rail Asia map as it is now: 80 territories, no starting positions, no neutrals.

Click image to enlarge.

The first question is: what are the limits we want to set regarding the probabilities of someone dropping various bonuses? As it stands, when playing a 3-player game, almost one game in ten will have someone dropping a 3-region zone, and about one game in thirty-five will have someone dropping a 4-region zone. With six players, about one game in fifty will have someone dropping a 3-region zone.

Is there a Foundry rule of thumb for the limits?

[MarshalNey]

Thanks for doing the probabilities ender. Those numbers are too high... although there is no official Foundry rule regarding bonus drops, I generally hate to see drops of magnitude greater than +1 with anything higher than a 2-3% probability, and that only for 1v1s and 3-player games. Honestly, with a +3 up for grabs, the probability should be a fractional percentage. That's why I think neutrals or starting positions are a good idea, so that the probability is zero.

-- Marshal Ney

[ender516]

Thanks for doing the probabilities ender. Those numbers are too high... although there is no official Foundry rule regarding bonus drops, I generally hate to see drops of magnitude greater than +1 with anything higher than a 2-3% probability, and that only for 1v1s and 3-player games. Honestly, with a +3 up for grabs, the probability should be a fractional percentage. That's why I think neutrals or starting positions are a good idea, so that the probability is zero.

-- Marshal Ney

No problem. Filling in the spreadsheet is a piece of cake. Pushing my way through fileden when it pops up to tell me on every page that I am the Ontario winner for October 5 is the most painful part of the process.

Okay, I will explore some possibilities. The immediate problem is that some obvious selections of starting positions and/or neutrals break the golden number rules. Luckily, MrBenn's tool highlights that in an obvious way.

[iancanton]

i tend to think that the numbers as they read above are just a little on the high side for comfort. however, there are actually two 3-region bonuses and three 4-region bonuses, which poses additional difficulties, since it's the total on the spreadsheet which is meaningful (you must enter each bonus once for it to work, even if it has the same numerical value as another bonus, so both 3-region bonuses must appear). i suggest removing the philippines from the map completely (who's going to build a major intercity railway between those islands anyway?) and letting beijing (like similar 3-region stations on the other rail maps) have no bonus at all.

ian.

[ender516]

i tend to think that the numbers as they read above are just a little on the high side for comfort. however, there are actually two 3-region bonuses and three 4-region bonuses, which poses additional difficulties, since it's the total on the spreadsheet which is meaningful (you must enter each bonus once for it to work, even if it has the same numerical value as another bonus, so both 3-region bonuses must appear). i suggest removing the philippines from the map completely (who's going to build a major intercity railway between those islands anyway?) and letting beijing (like similar 3-region stations on the other rail maps) have no bonus at all.

ian.

If I enter 3's in the pink area and 3's in the orange area, they both display exactly the same numbers, but you are right, I should have doubled the overall likelihood of someone dropping a 3-region zone, and tripled that of someone dropping a 4-region zone. So these numbers have to chang.

I do like your suggestions regarding the bonuses. I guess that I was dazzled by the charming graphic solution for Bejing into believing that it would be more important than, say, Cairo or Pretoria on the Rail Africa map, but they are equivalent, really.

If the Philippino line is removed, we would likely want a ferry route from, say, SDK-N to HCM-M.

[cairnswk]

Thanks ender516 for placing that probability chart up. ^^

Thanks for everyone's input on this btw.

Thanks for doing the probabilities ender. Those numbers are too high... although there is no official Foundry rule regarding bonus drops, I generally hate to see drops of magnitude greater than +1 with anything higher than a 2-3% probability, and that only for 1v1s and 3-player games. Honestly, with a +3 up for grabs, the probability should be a fractional percentage. That's why I think neutrals or starting positions are a good idea, so that the probability is zero.

-- Marshal Ney

At this stage i am in favour of starting neutrals to reduce that probability to zero.

...i suggest removing the philippines from the map completely (who's going to build a major intercity railway between those islands anyway?) and letting beijing (like similar 3-region stations on the other rail maps) have no bonus at all.
ian.

Ian, my argument is that since the map is 2050, then perhaps some organisation has seen the benefit of building the Philippines railway which like the japanese one only requires two connection bridges to cover the three main islands. Why would you want to dispose of one of the smaller bonuses anyway. That to me makes no sense. I was under the inpression that small bonuses were inportant to most maps. I would like the Philippines rail to stay.

Since Beijing is the only terminus with three stations in it on this map, it doesn't mean that it cannot be different from other rail maps, indeed every other rail map is slightly different in some manner.
I would like Beijing to have a bonus.

...
So these numbers have to change.

I do like your suggestions regarding the bonuses. I guess that I was dazzled by the charming graphic solution for Bejing into believing that it would be more important than, say, Cairo or Pretoria on the Rail Africa map, but they are equivalent, really.

If the Philippino line is removed, we would likely want a ferry route from, say, SDK-N to HCM-M.

So for me, the solution is to:
[*] keep the Philippines - it is not Rail Asia without it, and indeed if Taiwan and Sri Lanka were big enough on the map i would also have rail on those countries
[*]keep the Beijing terminus bonus to show differentiation from other rail maps
[*]increase the station numbers by three as touter before - 2 on the russian line and one on W China won't affect the bonus numbers.
[*]insert three neutral starts - on the Philippines and the other two on stations of your choice to reduce the drop probabilities.

[cairnswk]

Version 15.

Adjustments:
1. Two new Russian stations added - SMO (Smolensk) and NOV (Novgorod)
2. One new W chinese station added - UMQ (Urumqi)
3. Philippines remains but with one MNL starting neutral
4. TLV and TAF have been placed as neutral starts also.

[isaiah40]

I think one neutral on any one of the Beijing stations would be good to prevent that bonus from being dropped. Maybe one on TYO and one TBS-I. That will break up those 2 4 territory bonuses to prevent any possibility of a drop there. Just my two cents worth.