Re: RAIL ASIA [1.11.12] QUENCHED

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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V14-P8 Gameplay Fin?

Postby ender516 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:12 pm

cairnswk wrote:
ender516 wrote:Starting positions can often be used to break up small zones (continents) eliminating the chance of dropping a bonus, so you may not need to add more regions (territories).

Suggestions for those starts would be greatly appreciated ender516. :)

I will try to whip something up in the next day or so.
cairnswk wrote:
By the way, does anyone enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart?

We don't have them here so i can't comment.

They are very much a mixed blessing to a local economy.

By the way, I seem to be on the same page as well, as far as the N-Chinese thing goes. Odd that the caching seemed to depend on the login. In fact, I guess I was timed out by CC, but I didn't close my browser, although I did hibernate my machine.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V14-P8 Gameplay Fin?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:19 pm

ender516 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
ender516 wrote:Starting positions can often be used to break up small zones (continents) eliminating the chance of dropping a bonus, so you may not need to add more regions (territories).

Suggestions for those starts would be greatly appreciated ender516. :)

I will try to whip something up in the next day or so.

Thanks ender516
cairnswk wrote:
By the way, does anyone enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart?

We don't have them here so i can't comment.

They are very much a mixed blessing to a local economy.

By the way, I seem to be on the same page as well, as far as the N-Chinese thing goes. Odd that the caching seemed to depend on the login. In fact, I guess I was timed out by CC, but I didn't close my browser, although I did hibernate my machine.

Yes it happens for me also.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V14-P8 Gameplay Fin?

Postby ender516 on Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:31 pm

Okay, I haven't made as much progress here as I had hoped, but let's at least look at this chart below. It's a screenshot of MrBenn's Bonus Probabilty Calculator filled in to represent the Rail Asia map as it is now: 80 territories, no starting positions, no neutrals.

Click image to enlarge.
image


The first question is: what are the limits we want to set regarding the probabilities of someone dropping various bonuses? As it stands, when playing a 3-player game, almost one game in ten will have someone dropping a 3-region zone, and about one game in thirty-five will have someone dropping a 4-region zone. With six players, about one game in fifty will have someone dropping a 3-region zone.

Is there a Foundry rule of thumb for the limits?
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V14-P8 Gameplay Fin?

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:29 pm

Thanks for doing the probabilities ender. Those numbers are too high... although there is no official Foundry rule regarding bonus drops, I generally hate to see drops of magnitude greater than +1 with anything higher than a 2-3% probability, and that only for 1v1s and 3-player games. Honestly, with a +3 up for grabs, the probability should be a fractional percentage. That's why I think neutrals or starting positions are a good idea, so that the probability is zero.

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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V14-P8 Gameplay Fin?

Postby ender516 on Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:15 am

MarshalNey wrote:Thanks for doing the probabilities ender. Those numbers are too high... although there is no official Foundry rule regarding bonus drops, I generally hate to see drops of magnitude greater than +1 with anything higher than a 2-3% probability, and that only for 1v1s and 3-player games. Honestly, with a +3 up for grabs, the probability should be a fractional percentage. That's why I think neutrals or starting positions are a good idea, so that the probability is zero.

-- Marshal Ney

No problem. Filling in the spreadsheet is a piece of cake. Pushing my way through fileden when it pops up to tell me on every page that I am the Ontario winner for October 5 is the most painful part of the process. :evil:

Okay, I will explore some possibilities. The immediate problem is that some obvious selections of starting positions and/or neutrals break the golden number rules. Luckily, MrBenn's tool highlights that in an obvious way.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V14-P8 Gameplay Fin?

Postby iancanton on Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:02 am

i tend to think that the numbers as they read above are just a little on the high side for comfort. however, there are actually two 3-region bonuses and three 4-region bonuses, which poses additional difficulties, since it's the total on the spreadsheet which is meaningful (you must enter each bonus once for it to work, even if it has the same numerical value as another bonus, so both 3-region bonuses must appear). i suggest removing the philippines from the map completely (who's going to build a major intercity railway between those islands anyway?) and letting beijing (like similar 3-region stations on the other rail maps) have no bonus at all.

ian. :)
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V14-P8 Gameplay Fin?

Postby ender516 on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:40 am

iancanton wrote:i tend to think that the numbers as they read above are just a little on the high side for comfort. however, there are actually two 3-region bonuses and three 4-region bonuses, which poses additional difficulties, since it's the total on the spreadsheet which is meaningful (you must enter each bonus once for it to work, even if it has the same numerical value as another bonus, so both 3-region bonuses must appear). i suggest removing the philippines from the map completely (who's going to build a major intercity railway between those islands anyway?) and letting beijing (like similar 3-region stations on the other rail maps) have no bonus at all.

ian. :)


If I enter 3's in the pink area and 3's in the orange area, they both display exactly the same numbers, but you are right, I should have doubled the overall likelihood of someone dropping a 3-region zone, and tripled that of someone dropping a 4-region zone. So these numbers have to chang.

I do like your suggestions regarding the bonuses. I guess that I was dazzled by the charming graphic solution for Bejing into believing that it would be more important than, say, Cairo or Pretoria on the Rail Africa map, but they are equivalent, really.

If the Philippino line is removed, we would likely want a ferry route from, say, SDK-N to HCM-M.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V14-P8 Gameplay Fin?

Postby cairnswk on Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:39 pm

Thanks ender516 for placing that probability chart up. ^^

Thanks for everyone's input on this btw. :)

MarshalNey wrote:Thanks for doing the probabilities ender. Those numbers are too high... although there is no official Foundry rule regarding bonus drops, I generally hate to see drops of magnitude greater than +1 with anything higher than a 2-3% probability, and that only for 1v1s and 3-player games. Honestly, with a +3 up for grabs, the probability should be a fractional percentage. That's why I think neutrals or starting positions are a good idea, so that the probability is zero.

-- Marshal Ney

At this stage i am in favour of starting neutrals to reduce that probability to zero.

iancanton wrote:...i suggest removing the philippines from the map completely (who's going to build a major intercity railway between those islands anyway?) and letting beijing (like similar 3-region stations on the other rail maps) have no bonus at all.
ian. :)


Ian, my argument is that since the map is 2050, then perhaps some organisation has seen the benefit of building the Philippines railway which like the japanese one only requires two connection bridges to cover the three main islands. Why would you want to dispose of one of the smaller bonuses anyway. That to me makes no sense. I was under the inpression that small bonuses were inportant to most maps. I would like the Philippines rail to stay.

Since Beijing is the only terminus with three stations in it on this map, it doesn't mean that it cannot be different from other rail maps, indeed every other rail map is slightly different in some manner.
I would like Beijing to have a bonus.

ender516 wrote:...
So these numbers have to change.

I do like your suggestions regarding the bonuses. I guess that I was dazzled by the charming graphic solution for Bejing into believing that it would be more important than, say, Cairo or Pretoria on the Rail Africa map, but they are equivalent, really.

If the Philippino line is removed, we would likely want a ferry route from, say, SDK-N to HCM-M.

So for me, the solution is to:
[*] keep the Philippines - it is not Rail Asia without it, and indeed if Taiwan and Sri Lanka were big enough on the map i would also have rail on those countries
[*]keep the Beijing terminus bonus to show differentiation from other rail maps
[*]increase the station numbers by three as touter before - 2 on the russian line and one on W China won't affect the bonus numbers.
[*]insert three neutral starts - on the Philippines and the other two on stations of your choice to reduce the drop probabilities.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [8.10.11] V15-P9 Gameplay Fin?

Postby cairnswk on Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:24 pm

Version 15.

Adjustments:
1. Two new Russian stations added - SMO (Smolensk) and NOV (Novgorod)
2. One new W chinese station added - UMQ (Urumqi)
3. Philippines remains but with one MNL starting neutral
4. TLV and TAF have been placed as neutral starts also.

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Re: RAIL ASIA [8.10.11] V15-P9 Gameplay Fin?

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:21 pm

I think one neutral on any one of the Beijing stations would be good to prevent that bonus from being dropped. Maybe one on TYO and one TBS-I. That will break up those 2 4 territory bonuses to prevent any possibility of a drop there. Just my two cents worth. O:)
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Re: RAIL ASIA [8.10.11] V15-P9 Gameplay Fin?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:25 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I think one neutral on any one of the Beijing stations would be good to prevent that bonus from being dropped. Maybe one on TYO and one TBS-I. That will break up those 2 4 territory bonuses to prevent any possibility of a drop there. Just my two cents worth. O:)


OK, can do that isaiah40.

Also, i've just discovered while reading an article on the Chinese building a railway in Columbia to rival the Panama Canal...
that there is now a railway from Beijing to Lhasa in Tibet. :o I dind't know, but i'd sure like to put it in on the Western Chinese line.
Rangapoor will have to move down to fit it in. :)
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Re: RAIL ASIA [9.10.11] V16-P11 Gameplay adjusts

Postby cairnswk on Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:33 am

Version 16.
1. Lhasa added, and UMQ is replaced by GLM -> now becomes the junction for Lhasa on the western line - GLM Golmud
2. Rangapoor moved to Dhaka DHK
3. That makes 84 regions now...so golden number 80 is still achieved with 4 neutrals
4. neutrals placed on MNL (O), BJN (G), MHD (B)(J), TLV (H)

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Re: RAIL ASIA [9.10.11] V16-P11 Gameplay adjusts

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:31 am

Nice cairns, looking good. =D>

Two suggestions:
(1) Move the neutral on TLV (H line) to TBS Station (H line).
The TBS Station is also a 4-region bonus and should have a neutral, so it takes care of both of them with one stroke.

(2) Move the neutral on MHD (B & J lines) to TYO (E line).
Both the B and J lines shouldn't be a problem for drops anymore as they are 8-region and 5-region bonuses, respectively. The Japan E-line is only 4 regions big, however, so it could use the neutral instead.

With those changes, this should be ready for a stamp.

Last call for any concerns prior to stamping.

-- Marshal Ney
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Re: RAIL ASIA [9.10.11] V16-P11 Gameplay adjusts

Postby cairnswk on Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:42 pm

MarshalNey wrote:Nice cairns, looking good. =D>

Two suggestions:
(1) Move the neutral on TLV (H line) to TBS Station (H line).
The TBS Station is also a 4-region bonus and should have a neutral, so it takes care of both of them with one stroke.

(2) Move the neutral on MHD (B & J lines) to TYO (E line).
Both the B and J lines shouldn't be a problem for drops anymore as they are 8-region and 5-region bonuses, respectively. The Japan E-line is only 4 regions big, however, so it could use the neutral instead.

With those changes, this should be ready for a stamp.

Last call for any concerns prior to stamping.

-- Marshal Ney


Done MarshalNey. F5 for the above image.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [9.10.11] V16-P11 Gameplay adjusts

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:10 pm

In light of the above changes, and hearing no objections... Shazam!
Image

This of course only means that the map has met or exceeded the minimum Foundry gameplay standard, and further gameplay discussion is not only welcome but encouraged! The focus has, however, moved on to graphics, so graphics gurus sharpen your eyes and post your thoughts on the Railways of Future Asia.

-- Marshal Ney
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