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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P6 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:54 pm

Version 10
1. New line from MHD to ATY
2. New line from TLV to IST
3. two new motorised carts placed

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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:38 pm

I've also just added a line in China from BJN <-> SHG <-> HKG
i look at this and thought it would be absurd that a line didn't exist between thos three big cities.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V11-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:48 pm

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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby ender516 on Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:28 pm

Yes, that addition makes a lot of sense. That is Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong, correct? I imagine that would be an extremely busy corridor.

Question: Does SAP only connect via ferry with VST-D and not VST-C? If so, perhaps the ferry route should be coloured like the SHG - KAG route. If not, and SAP connects to both VST stations, perhaps the ferry route should fork and show all three colours.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V11-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:13 am

ender516 wrote:Yes, that addition makes a lot of sense. That is Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong, correct? I imagine that would be an extremely busy corridor.

Question: Does SAP only connect via ferry with VST-D and not VST-C? If so, perhaps the ferry route should be coloured like the SHG - KAG route. If not, and SAP connects to both VST stations, perhaps the ferry route should fork and show all three colours.


Thanks ender516 for that comment.
You've raised an good issue there about the Vladivostok connection...
So i have followed your hint and allowed two connections there, something slightly different from other rail maps.
Please f5 to see the chage in the above V11.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby TaCktiX on Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:09 am

You've done a lot of Rail maps Cairns, and it's showing. My only clarity complaint right now is the fact that the DSH and TBS bonuses are mentioned by full name in the legend, with nothing equating the abbreviation to the full name. It normally wouldn't be that big a deal, but you've got a LOT of bonuses in this one, rivaling Rail Europe easily.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:54 pm

TaCktiX wrote:You've done a lot of Rail maps Cairns, and it's showing.

Thanks TaCktiX. i hope that means this looks better. ;)

[/quote]My only clarity complaint right now is the fact that the DSH and TBS bonuses are mentioned by full name in the legend, with nothing equating the abbreviation to the full name. It normally wouldn't be that big a deal, but you've got a LOT of bonuses in this one, rivaling Rail Europe easily.[/quote]
Understood. Adjusted for next version 12
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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:59 am

OK, first thing is your first post- it needs upadating! I realize sometimes the rate of updating seems worse than Microsoft Windows, but it really saves a ton of time.

The second thing is that this map looks sweet! :) I'm very glad that you have 2 stations here and that they are smaller- it opens up the strategic options.

As for the breakdown, here's what I have, please correct me if I made an error (as I am wont to do):
+2 Bonuses
    Rail E: 4 regions, 2 borders
    Rail F: 4 regions, 2 borders
    Rail G: 6 regions, 2 borders
    Rail L: 5 regions, 2 borders
    Rail M:3 regions, 2 borders

+3 Bonuses
    Rail H: 5 regions, 4 borders
    Rail I: 5 regions, 3 borders
    Rail J: 7 regions, 3 borders
    Tblisi Station: 4 regions, 4 borders

+4 Bonuses
    Rail C: 5 regions, 4 borders
    Rail K: 7 regions, 4 borders
    Dushanbe Station: 5 regions, 5 borders

+5 Bonuses
    Rail A: 7 regions, 4 borders
    Rail B: 8 regions, 4 borders

+11 Bonus
    Rail D: 14 regions, 8 borders

77 total regions, 4 neutral (MNL-M, PSD-F (?), TYO-E, TAF-H)

73 total deployable regions
2p & 3p = 24 each, 1 neutral
4p (dubs)= 18 each, 1 neutral
5p = 14 each, 3 neutral
6p (dubs, trips)= 12 each, 1 neutral
7p = 10 each, 3 neutral
8p (dubs, trips, quads)= 9 each, 1 neutral

If this looks correct, please copy and paste into your 1st post.

After digesting these figures, I have the following recommendations:

Rail M bonus lowered from +2 to +1
Rail G bonus raised from +2 to +3, and one extra border added
Rail H bonus raised from +3 to +4
Rail J bonus raised from +3 to +4 and one extra border added
Rail K bonus raised from +4 to +5
... and then there's the Rail D bonus. It's a white elephant, even worse than Asia in Classic. Nobody but nobody is going to collect this bonus until the game is decided already in their favor. Yet, you already have more than enough bonuses, so splitting it up doesn't look like a good idea. You could palm some of its regions off to other rails maybe, but this would only make the other rails non-viable while not really helping Rail D significantly. In light of the fact that the number of total deployable regions on the map is a very unfavorable number, I would be inclined to recommend that you chop out some of the stations in Rail D... but that's just my first thought and any other idea that might reasonably reduce the borders of this bonus would be welcome.

As for your neutrals... they could be moved to better spots to prevent dropping bonuses. The most obvious move to me is the neutral on the F-Rail. Move it to Tblisi Station, since that's a very droppable bonus at the moment and needs a neutral. Thus two birds with one stone.

The second thing that I would do with the neutrals is to get rid of the neutral on Rail H. It's not needed... if it turns out that you need the neutral for your total region count to be a golden number, move it to Rail L.

Finally, as mentioned earlier the total number of deployable regions for this map (73 regions) is a non-golden (one might say black) number. Some adjustments need to be made to either increase or decrease it to a golden number.

-- Marshal Ney

P.S. I didn't give a rationale for my suggestions for raising or lowering the bonuses (other than Rail D), but if one compares the values between like rails, most of them are self-explanatory. Rail M is too good of a deal for +2... I think that a bonus should not be both easy and more efficient than larger bonuses; rather a small bonus should be a tradeoff (easier to take and hold, but less efficient). Otherwise it dominates the strategy disproportionately.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [21.09.11] V8-P6 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:12 am

    From Sully / From MarshalNey / Decision
  • Russian (A): +4 or +5 / Rail A: 7 regions, 4 borders + 5 / +5
  • The Stanz (B): +4 / Rail B: 8 regions, 4 borders +5 / +5
  • Siberian (C): +4 / Rail C: 5 regions, 4 borders +4 / +4
  • Chinese (D): +10 / Rail D: 14 regions, 8 borders +11 / +11
  • Japanese (E): +2 / Rail E: 4 regions, 2 borders +2 / +2
  • Ottoman (F): +2 / Rail F: 4 regions, 2 borders +2 / +2
  • Arabian (G): +2 / Rail G: 6 regions, 2 borders +2 / +2
  • Iranian (H): +3 / Rail H: 5 regions, 4 borders +3 / +3
  • Pakistani (I): +3 / Rail I: 5 regions, 3 borders +3 / +3
  • Indian (J): +4 / Rail J: 7 regions, 3 borders +3 / +4
  • Southeast Asian (K): +5 / Rail K: 7 regions, 4 borders +4 / +4
  • Indonesian (L): +2 / Rail L: 5 regions, 2 borders +2 / +2
  • Philippino (M): +1 / Rail M:3 regions, 2 borders +2 / +2
  • All Yerevan: +3 / Tblisi Station: 4 regions, 4 borders +3 / +3
  • All Dushanbe: +4 √ Dushanbe Station: 5 regions, 5 borders +4 / +4


77 total regions, 4 neutral (MNL-M, PSD-F (?), TYO-E, TAF-H)

I count 73 regions plus 4 neutrals - correct
I'll add more shortly about those other changes.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:20 am

Both Marshal and I suggested M's decrease to +1. I think it's a valid concern that a bonus of +2 would be too high for it's borders, territory count, position, and expansion opportunities (i.e. L - Indonesian).

-Sully
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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:24 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:Both Marshal and I suggested M's decrease to +1. I think it's a valid concern that a bonus of +2 would be too high for it's borders, territory count, position, and expansion opportunities (i.e. L - Indonesian).

-Sully

Yeh, thanks Sully, i haven't got down to bottom half of that post that why i put
I'll add more shortly about those other changes.
;)
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Re: RAIL ASIA [27.09.11] V10-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:27 am

Oh, okay, gotcha :oops:

-Sully
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V11-P8 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:12 pm

MarshalNey wrote:...

After digesting these figures, I have the following recommendations:

... and then there's the Rail D bonus. It's a white elephant, even worse than Asia in Classic. Nobody but nobody is going to collect this bonus until the game is decided already in their favor. Yet, you already have more than enough bonuses, so splitting it up doesn't look like a good idea. You could palm some of its regions off to other rails maybe, but this would only make the other rails non-viable while not really helping Rail D significantly. In light of the fact that the number of total deployable regions on the map is a very unfavorable number, I would be inclined to recommend that you chop out some of the stations in Rail D... but that's just my first thought and any other idea that might reasonably reduce the borders of this bonus would be welcome.

As for your neutrals... they could be moved to better spots to prevent dropping bonuses. The most obvious move to me is the neutral on the F-Rail. Move it to Tblisi Station, since that's a very droppable bonus at the moment and needs a neutral. Thus two birds with one stone.

The second thing that I would do with the neutrals is to get rid of the neutral on Rail H. It's not needed... if it turns out that you need the neutral for your total region count to be a golden number, move it to Rail L.

Finally, as mentioned earlier the total number of deployable regions for this map (73 regions) is a non-golden (one might say black) number. Some adjustments need to be made to either increase or decrease it to a golden number.

-- Marshal Ney

P.S. I didn't give a rationale for my suggestions for raising or lowering the bonuses (other than Rail D), but if one compares the values between like rails, most of them are self-explanatory. Rail M is too good of a deal for +2... I think that a bonus should not be both easy and more efficient than larger bonuses; rather a small bonus should be a tradeoff (easier to take and hold, but less efficient). Otherwise it dominates the strategy disproportionately.


Here is my solution for Rail D
It's still a large bonus, but it now gives 82 regions so only to have to start neutral to get the 80 golden number.
I'll get back to the other side adjustment like M shortly...need some more sleep.

Version 11.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V11-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:18 pm

Looks good, though I'd reduce Beijing's bonus to +5.

-Sully
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V12-P7 Chine into 3 bonuses

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:27 pm

MarshalNey wrote:...

P.S. I didn't give a rationale for my suggestions for raising or lowering the bonuses (other than Rail D), but if one compares the values between like rails, most of them are self-explanatory. Rail M is too good of a deal for +2... I think that a bonus should not be both easy and more efficient than larger bonuses; rather a small bonus should be a tradeoff (easier to take and hold, but less efficient). Otherwise it dominates the strategy disproportionately.



My side of the coin for Rail M being +2 is that it still have two borders to defend therefore if the player who gets that railway is to defend it, they need one each side to continue to hold it, the same with Indonesia and Japan, and it backs onto that large Southern Chinese Rail.

After digesting these figures, I have the following recommendations:
Rail M bonus lowered from +2 to +1


I'd like to keep the +2

Not sure what you mean with the "and one extra border added" - do you want another border added in order to justify the bonus?

Rail G bonus raised from +2 to +3, and one extra border added


Now Rail I Arabian - Done

Rail J bonus raised from +3 to +4 and one extra border added


Now Rail L Indian - Done

Rail H bonus raised from +3 to +4


Now Rail J Iranian - Done

Rail K bonus raised from +4 to +5


Now Rail M SE Asia - Done

The second thing that I would do with the neutrals is to get rid of the neutral on Rail H. It's not needed... if it turns out that you need the neutral for your total region count to be a golden number, move it to Rail L.


I don't think there are any need for neutrals now

Finally, as mentioned earlier the total number of deployable regions for this map (73 regions) is a non-golden (one might say black) number. Some adjustments need to be made to either increase or decrease it to a golden number.
-- Marshal Ney


Golden number should now be 80, i hope.

Version 12
Beijing D will have to be noted as D1 and D2...not put in yet, but will adjust.
Confirmed in the xml there is now 80 regions.


Version 12
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V11-P7 Changed gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:30 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Looks good, though I'd reduce Beijing's bonus to +5.
-Sully

Chopping and changing Sully.
Beiing is now a 4 region terminal, so have adjusted that to +3, same as Tbilisi.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V12-P7 Chine into 3 bonuses

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:44 pm

Version 12
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V12-P7 Chine into 3 bonuses

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:17 pm

D to +5, F to +6... As far as BJN is concerned, I'm a little confused as to why there are two D stations.

-Sully
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V12-P7 Chine into 3 bonuses

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:28 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:D to +5, F to +6... As far as BJN is concerned, I'm a little confused as to why there are two D stations.

-Sully

Sully, i thought that creating a triangle for that wouldn't look right.
So i created the same as Tbilisi.
so two of the sides had to be D platforms.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V12-P7 Chine into 3 bonuses

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:30 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:D to +5, F to +6... As far as BJN is concerned, I'm a little confused as to why there are two D stations.

-Sully

Sully, i thought that creating a triangle for that wouldn't look right.
So i created the same as Tbilisi.
so two of the sides had to be D platforms.

Fair enough, I suppose.

-Sully
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Re: RAIL ASIA [29.09.11] V12-P7 Chine into 3 bonuses

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:34 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:D to +5, F to +6... As far as BJN is concerned, I'm a little confused as to why there are two D stations.

-Sully

Sully, i thought that creating a triangle for that wouldn't look right.
So i created the same as Tbilisi.
so two of the sides had to be D platforms.

Fair enough, I suppose.

-Sully


I just tried it again with triangles, and the outer triangle has to be quite large (because of the acute angles) in order to fit the lilne designator in that outside space.
Do you have an alternative, and is there any real problem with having it that way.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V13-P8 Chine into 3 bonuses

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:43 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:...
Fair enough, I suppose.
-Sully


Sully, i found a configuration that kinda works for me, i'm not totally happy with it, but it cuts the lines down to three in Bejing.
Does this work for you also?

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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V13-P8 China into 3 bonuses

Postby ender516 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:55 am

I thought it quite reasonable for a city the size of Beijing to have two stations on one line, but the naming convention would need some tweaking. The new configuration has some appeal, as it resembles a brilliant cut diamond seen in profile. With one less station in D, is it still worth 5?
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V13-P8 China into 3 bonuses

Postby cairnswk on Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:19 am

ender516 wrote:I thought it quite reasonable for a city the size of Beijing to have two stations on one line, but the naming convention would need some tweaking. The new configuration has some appeal, as it resembles a brilliant cut diamond seen in profile. With one less station in D, is it still worth 5?

Thanks ender516.
my calculator says it's only worth +4.
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Re: RAIL ASIA [30.09.11] V13-P8 China into 3 bonuses

Postby cairnswk on Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:31 am

If everyone is happy with this graphic for BJN, then i'll run with that, i think apart from that bonus for N Chinese ?, everything is set for gameplay.
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