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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:20 am

Version 16...
Click image to enlarge.
image


...mainly to show the starting positions for gameplay comments.
Sarah Good
Elizabeth Hubbard
Thomas Preston
Tituba
Elizabeth Parris
Ann Putnam Jr
Sarah Osbourne
Sarah Bishop
for now.
That's 8 starters.
Given the gameplay, do we need more starters, and if so, how many more positions.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:55 am

This is a conquest map? I just don't see it as conquest. I see it more as a standard map with dispersion bonuses. Perhaps instead of conquest just have starting neutrals to prevent freebie bonuses?
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:19 am

I think conquest-style fits nicely with the idea of accusations and rumours spreading through the population, but centred on the accusers and accused. That said, I tend to prefer the faster pace of games with few neutrals. So, I'm okay with either setup.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby natty dread on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:30 pm

Adding starting positions does not a conquest map make.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:38 pm

You're right, natty. Cairnswk did suggest the possibility of more starting positions, and the other territories don't have to be neutrals. They could be thrown in the pot and handed out.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:42 pm

The starting positions look okay to me, you would just have to set the max equal to 1, so as no one in 2-4 player games start with a pair.

-Sully
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:48 pm

OK i'm reading above guys....
if we want more starting positions, would the golden numbers come into effect given that most starting positions would be at least one or two neutral terts away
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:51 pm

Hm, looking at it again... Tituba has a large advantage, given there's an Accuser right next door... Hm.

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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:54 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Hm, looking at it again... Tituba has a large advantage, given there's an Accuser right next door... Hm.
-Sully

Yes she has, so the only thing to do there is for an impassable..i wouldn't want to lose her as starter as she was one of the original accused.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:55 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Hm, looking at it again... Tituba has a large advantage, given there's an Accuser right next door... Hm.
-Sully

Yes she has, so the only thing to do there is for an impassable..i wouldn't want to lose her as starter as she was one of the original accused.

Too true, my friend! An impassable might be okay, though it would close her off a bit.

-Sully
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:59 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Hm, looking at it again... Tituba has a large advantage, given there's an Accuser right next door... Hm.
-Sully

Yes she has, so the only thing to do there is for an impassable..i wouldn't want to lose her as starter as she was one of the original accused.

Too true, my friend! An impassable might be okay, though it would close her off a bit.

-Sully

in that case, rather than make an impassable, could we up the bonus to 2 accused adn 2 accusers +3...this would also make it harder for others of those pairs.

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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:08 pm

Are we concerned that Tituba is too close to Elizabeth Parris, or just that she is adjacent to Samuel Brabrook?
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:20 pm

ender516 wrote:Are we concerned that Tituba is too close to Elizabeth Parris, or just that she is adjacent to Samuel Brabrook?

Adjacent to Samuel, though you do bring up a good point...

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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:35 pm

The other thing that could be done is too load Samuel Brabrook with a high neutral value like 10 or something that would not allow whoever holds Tituba not to conquer Samauel for at least two rounds.

so the options would be:
1. increase Samuel Brarook neutral value to 10
2. make an impassable fence between Tituba and Samuel Brabrook
3. change the accuser/accesed pair bonus to +3/4 for two of each
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:15 pm

Just spitballing here: what about a road instead of a fence with a new buggy stop where Tituba, Samuel Brabrook, and Elizabeth Parris meet?
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:01 am

TaCktiX wrote:This is a conquest map? I just don't see it as conquest. I see it more as a standard map with dispersion bonuses. Perhaps instead of conquest just have starting neutrals to prevent freebie bonuses?


I agree with this strongly, but if this was meant to be a conquest map from the beginning then of course go with that.

I think some clarification needs to go into the first post. Unfortunately, the specification of neutral vs. open deployment regions on the map was left out of the map template (my fault as I didn't comment in the thread at the time it was being made). Anyway, it's a big deal as far as gameplay is concerned, and I made the assumption that the map was open deployment...

I'll wait to comment on the starting positions until I know for certain whether this is a conquest or open-deployment map.

------------

As for Witch-Hill and the Prison, for now I'd say just lower the requirement for the bonus, although a victory condition would be nice I'd hate to see it clutter the map...

- Marshal Ney
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:05 am

ender516 wrote:Just spitballing here: what about a road instead of a fence with a new buggy stop where Tituba, Samuel Brabrook, and Elizabeth Parris meet?


I'm kinda sorry for this debate that has arisen....
Tituba shouldn't actually own land on the map as she was a slave of the Rev Parris and was accused by Elizabeth Parris and Abigail Williams of withcraft. To this end, she is in the historically wrong position, however she has to be on the map because of her being one of the first accused.

So maybe i need to refocus her tert on something between Betty Parris and and Rev. Parris...i'll have to look at that. :?
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:14 am

MarshalNey wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:This is a conquest map? I just don't see it as conquest. I see it more as a standard map with dispersion bonuses. Perhaps instead of conquest just have starting neutrals to prevent freebie bonuses?


I agree with this strongly, but if this was meant to be a conquest map from the beginning then of course go with that.

I think some clarification needs to go into the first post. Unfortunately, the specification of neutral vs. open deployment regions on the map was left out of the map template (my fault as I didn't comment in the thread at the time it was being made). Anyway, it's a big deal as far as gameplay is concerned, and I made the assumption that the map was open deployment...

I'll wait to comment on the starting positions until I know for certain whether this is a conquest or open-deployment map.

...- Marshal Ney


Well you know guys, my idea was initially for a conquest map where there were starting positions so that the effect of conquering the territories would create the gossip effect. That afterall is what the map is about.
I would like to keep it that way in many respects because of the gossip element it enhances, but i am also aware of the lengthy play that this will create, and that having an open standard map may make for less lengthy play.

I had envisioned 8 starting positions when there was several layers of accused and accusers, but these layers have each become one, and now there is opportunity for more starting positions to be added to fill some of those terts rather than have them all neutral starts.

So iam still inclined to have starting positions with a compromise that there needs to be upwards of 8 starting positions that can be shared amoungst the starters.

Any of the golden numbers 24 to 35 might be suitable.

It's nice to have this gameplay discussion :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [9.9.11] V17-P15 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:15 pm

Version 17.

Changes:
1. Trees and thicket between Putnum and Sarah Cloyce
2. Fence and tree added between Tituba and Samuel Brabrook - i don't think i want to change Tituba to being between the two Parris's as there is not enough room and that would involved a major redraw for little gain since Tituba is isolated anyways.
3. There are now 24 starting positions across the map with not too many in town - this above all is the sorting that needs to be done next.

Questions:
1. Is 24 start positions enough?
2. Does the placement of the 24 start positions need changing on individual terts.

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Re: Salem's Switch [9.9.11] V17-P15 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:41 am

No takers here?
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Re: Salem's Switch [9.9.11] V17-P15 Start Positions?

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:55 am

Sorry, didn't mean to neglect this...

Question 1: Yes, I think 24 works. It will join the select company of Poker Club and maybe several other maps I can't recall with several sets of starting positions... Certainly it mitigates my personal dislike for conquest maps, so I'll probably play it! :)

Question 2: Hard to say without more information. Now that I know we're talking conquest-style, I'd really like to see what neutral values you have in mind for the rest of the map. Did I miss it on the 1st post? If so I apologize.

-- Marshal Ney

P.S. I realize that you might want to hammer out the starting positions before tackling neutral values, but what I'm looking for is a general idea of how easily a player can (or cannot) move about the map... are the buggy stops going to be in the range of neutral 1s or 2s, or 4s and 6s? Some mapmakers like high neutrals, others low, I prefer the latter for several reasons mostly relating to game flow.
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Re: Salem's Switch [9.9.11] V17-P15 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:26 am

Thanks for dropping in and commenting and this one MarshalNey :)
MarshalNey wrote:Question 1: Yes, I think 24 works. It will join the select company of Poker Club and maybe several other maps I can't recall with several sets of starting positions... Certainly it mitigates my personal dislike for conquest maps, so I'll probably play it! :)

At least there will be someone who will play it apart from myself. :)

Question 2: Hard to say without more information. Now that I know we're talking conquest-style, I'd really like to see what neutral values you have in mind for the rest of the map. Did I miss it on the 1st post? If so I apologize.

-- Marshal Ney

P.S. I realize that you might want to hammer out the starting positions before tackling neutral values, but what I'm looking for is a general idea of how easily a player can (or cannot) move about the map... are the buggy stops going to be in the range of neutral 1s or 2s, or 4s and 6s? Some mapmakers like high neutrals, others low, I prefer the latter for several reasons mostly relating to game flow.

  • On the buggy stops - 1 - will maintain flow around the map
  • On Meeting houses - 3 - don't want these as too easy to get, players need to fight over them
  • On witch hill, prison and judges and reverends - 5 - high in order to be not easy to get until end game
  • On all other non-starting positions - 2 - need to be accessible after running the buggy stops
Do you think these will work for other neutral values?
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Re: Salem's Switch [9.9.11] V17-P15 Start Positions?

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:57 pm

cairnswk wrote:
    On the buggy stops - 1 - will maintain flow around the map
    On Meeting houses - 3 - don't want these as too easy to get, players need to fight over them
    On witch hill, prison and judges and reverends - 5 - high in order to be not easy to get until end game
    On all other non-starting positions - 2 - need to be accessible after running the buggy stops
Do you think these will work for other neutral values?


I like the values you've given, although witch hill and the prison need not be 5s I think, as they give no bonus without a judge anyway... maybe 3s I'm thinking to keep them viable (otherwise we're looking at taking out 10 neutrals in order to get the bonus).

You could keep the rest of the townsfolk in this range of 2-4 and I think games would flow nicely. If not, you could always increase the troops for the starting positions a little to compensate.

I'll look over the starting positions tomorrow.

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Re: Salem's Switch [12.9.11] V18-P15 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:13 pm

Thanks MarshalNey again for looking at this.

Here is V18 for you with those values on the map to help with further analysis.

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Re: Salem's Switch [12.9.11] V18-P15 Start Positions?

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:48 pm

The fence between William Good and Elizabeth Proctor is very hard to see.
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