Salem's Switch V36 [Quenched]

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Re: Salem's Switch [27.8.11] V12-P11 Fences?

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:31 am

Actually, Isaiah Currington could be a legit Salem-esque name. Just sayin'.

As for the actual map, please a different thingy other than solid red. You've got enough fences and they do break up the map well, but the red reminds me of my first version of The Citadel (used the exact same shade, no joke). And we know how good THAT was...

On the buggy roads and travel legend element, I was disappointed to find out that the mentioned B13 and B14 don't correspond at all to the ones on the map. B6 and B7 roughly match the size and orientation of the legend element, so perhaps you could do some copy/paste magic on that. That way, people could actually FIND what you're talking about.

And typo-patrol!:
- You've got several "accussed" and "accusser." One "s" please.
- The top left should state "either Town Meeting Hall."

Finally, the bonus numbers in dark red on the right don't match up that well with what they're attached to. This is most obvious with the Reverend + 6 landowner bonus.
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Re: Salem's Switch [27.8.11] V12-P11 Fences?

Postby MarshalNey on Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:51 am

This is a map whose gameplay I keep wanting to comment about, but every update just keeps going in the right direction so I hold my tongue. Letting you know that I'm following the map's progress and it looks good. I was really tickled to see this one back :)

A few clerical typos/grammar-

Under the heading of Gossip, the legend states:
"...Hold either Town Meeting Halls plus..." (italics added)
Need to correct that to make Hall singular, and to conform to the map names it should say Meeting House, as in "...Hold either Meeting House plus.."

The 's's are doubled in the words "accused" and "accuser" in the listed bonuses above and below the Judges bonus.

As for clarity, it would be nice to have some sort of icon/standout color for the Meeting Houses- it's really the only thing I had trouble finding (specifically the T.M.H., the other one already has an icon!).

-- Marshal Ney

Edit: whoops, looks like I got fastposted by Tack. Sorry for the repeat advice.
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Re: Salem's Switch [27.8.11] V12-P11 Fences?

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:00 am

It must be witchcraft that MarshalNey tried to post right behind me the same things. Hang him!
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Re: Salem's Switch [27.8.11] V12-P11 Fences?

Postby bob3603 on Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:26 am

Good idea for a map. Giles Corey was pressed to death though, not hung. He refused to plead, so that his estate would still be passed to his family instead of seized by the government. His last words were "more weight", clearly indicating that the massive size of his balls would put most blue whales to shame. Clearly you should get a major bonus just for holding him.
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Re: Salem's Switch [27.8.11] V12-P11 Fences?

Postby natty dread on Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:03 pm

Sorry I haven't been commenting lately, my internet connection has been such utter crap that I haven't been able to do much anything...

The nooses: I like the design but I don't quite like the pink colour... makes them look toy-esque. I'd suggest a darker colour, maybe a desaturated dark brown...

Fences: Hm, maybe a tad too many of them, takes the map too much on the bottlenecked side IMO... I'd say you could cut them down at least on places like Southwick/Stone, Alice Shaflin/Osbourne, Lot Conant/Henry Herrick... where they don't really seem to bring anything more to the gameplay. Try avoiding dead ends.
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Re: Salem's Switch [27.8.11] V12-P11 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:36 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Actually, Isaiah Currington could be a legit Salem-esque name. Just sayin'.

As for the actual map, please a different thingy other than solid red. You've got enough fences and they do break up the map well, but the red reminds me of my first version of The Citadel (used the exact same shade, no joke). And we know how good THAT was...

On the buggy roads and travel legend element, I was disappointed to find out that the mentioned B13 and B14 don't correspond at all to the ones on the map. B6 and B7 roughly match the size and orientation of the legend element, so perhaps you could do some copy/paste magic on that. That way, people could actually FIND what you're talking about.

And typo-patrol!:
- You've got several "accussed" and "accusser." One "s" please.
- The top left should state "either Town Meeting Hall."

Finally, the bonus numbers in dark red on the right don't match up that well with what they're attached to. This is most obvious with the Reverend + 6 landowner bonus.


MarshalNey wrote:This is a map whose gameplay I keep wanting to comment about, but every update just keeps going in the right direction so I hold my tongue. Letting you know that I'm following the map's progress and it looks good. I was really tickled to see this one back :)

A few clerical typos/grammar-

Under the heading of Gossip, the legend states:
"...Hold either Town Meeting Halls plus..." (italics added)
Need to correct that to make Hall singular, and to conform to the map names it should say Meeting House, as in "...Hold either Meeting House plus.."

The 's's are doubled in the words "accused" and "accuser" in the listed bonuses above and below the Judges bonus.

As for clarity, it would be nice to have some sort of icon/standout color for the Meeting Houses- it's really the only thing I had trouble finding (specifically the T.M.H., the other one already has an icon!).

-- Marshal Ney

Edit: whoops, looks like I got fastposted by Tack. Sorry for the repeat advice.



Wow, that is magic, two commentiong about almost the very same things at the same time.
I'll fiex everything above next version, guys. thanks for those ont eh table. :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [27.8.11] V12-P11 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:09 pm

bob3603 wrote:Good idea for a map.

Thanks bob3603...and for commenting !
Giles Corey was pressed to death though, not hung. He refused to plead, so that his estate would still be passed to his family instead of seized by the government. His last words were "more weight", clearly indicating that the massive size of his balls would put most blue whales to shame. Clearly you should get a major bonus just for holding him.

Giles has been removed from the hung list, but replaced Susannah Martin and Sarah Good after re-checking.
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Re: Salem's Switch [27.8.11] V12-P11 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:38 pm

natty_dread wrote:Sorry I haven't been commenting lately, my internet connection has been such utter crap that I haven't been able to do much anything...
Glad you're back...

The nooses: I like the design but I don't quite like the pink colour... makes them look toy-esque. I'd suggest a darker colour, maybe a desaturated dark brown...

I've tried the browns and they don't work on either the dark blue or the purple. Currently i've got sky blue wth black border vector graphics and that doesn't look mtoo bad.

Fences: Hm, maybe a tad too many of them, takes the map too much on the bottlenecked side IMO... I'd say you could cut them down at least on places like Southwick/Stone, Alice Shaflin/Osbourne, Lot Conant/Henry Herrick... where they don't really seem to bring anything more to the gameplay. Try avoiding dead ends.

Done next version...
Thanks Natty.
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P11 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:58 pm

Version 13 Small
Some aspect from concerns above have been addressed in this version, but this is mainly too determine the fence drawings without going too much further as there is quite a bit of vector work in these.

Question: Are the fences: adequate - too small - too black - wrong colour - undistringuishable - other?

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:11 pm

I think black is the wrong color, or the vector is a bad one, because they don't look like fences at all. They look like boxes connected by lines, like some reject border style from Microsoft Word. I don't think that's your intent.
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby Nola_Lifer on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:15 pm

I know this suggestion may complicate things but can you use other impassable than fences. So far the fences look good but it will be a bit boring to have all fences. What about some trees or etc.?
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby ender516 on Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:27 pm

Fences can also be made of wood or fieldstones, and you could use brambles as well, so there can be many visual styles of impassables.
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:35 pm

Why does there need to be multiple types of impassables? There's already the body of water there (bay? lake?) so why make the map needlessly more complicated?
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby ender516 on Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:53 pm

Why does every map seem to need grunge, or fold marks, or to be rotated? In my opinion, they don't, but there is always much whining if a map uses clean solid colours and and rectilinear shapes.

As far as multiple impassables goes, I was thinking in terms of making the map more visually interesting, but it may just result in clutter at this scale.
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby Seamus76 on Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:19 pm

For me, the fence works, especially the sideways view where you can really see it. If there were a way to make the northern most vertical fence slanted a little more to the left (like the one below it), to show more of the detail that might be nice. Maybe rotate B8 a little to the right, then move the base of the fence to the right. I don't think you need more types of impassables, but for my eye, I would like to see at least one or two more fences on the left side of the map as well. Right now they just look a little out of place. Forgive me if that was the future intent.
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:28 pm

natty_dread wrote:Why does there need to be multiple types of impassables? There's already the body of water there (bay? lake?) so why make the map needlessly more complicated?


It was a suggestion and in my suggestion I also conceded the point it may make thing complicated. No where was it said it was needed. :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:09 pm

Lively discussion, that's good. :)
I've been checking out some references to fences in Sales at that time, and there is eveidence that the old meeting house was surrounded by a fence, but that also large parts of other boundaries were indeed thickett. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17845/17 ... 1-htm.html

This was also a laugh http://www.theawl.com/2011/06/the-real- ... tch-trials :lol: :lol:
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby natty dread on Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:18 pm

ender516 wrote:Why does every map seem to need grunge, or fold marks, or to be rotated?


There's no actual grunge on most CC maps. There are maps with textures, but that's a bit different.
As for fold marks, there are less than 5 maps on CC (including maps that aren't live yet) that use them.
And rotation? Most maps have no rotation at all.

In my opinion, they don't, but there is always much whining if a map uses clean solid colours and and rectilinear shapes.


Using clean, solid colours may work if it's the intended style of the map. If it's done due to limitations of the mapmaker's skills, it usually shows and the problem with that is, it often makes the map look too sterile and plastic. Adding some texture is an easy way to bring the map to life. On another hand, if the whole map mimics one that is drawn on paper, having a consistent paper texture on the whole map image may be appropriate. And so on... stylistic choices should be made according to the needs of the particular map, not according to the limitations of the mapmaker's skill.

As for rectangular shapes, it's pretty much the same thing... a stylistic choice. If it fits the map, fine.

As far as multiple impassables goes, I was thinking in terms of making the map more visually interesting, but it may just result in clutter at this scale.


There's plenty of potential in this map to make it visually interesting... however, clutter is something that should be avoided, and the gameplay is not from the simplest end (unsurprisingly, this being a cairns map) so anything that can result in more confusion for the player should be avoided, if a simpler way can be used.
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Re: Salem's Switch [29.8.11] V13-P12 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:56 pm

natty_dread wrote:... the gameplay is not from the simplest end (unsurprisingly, this being a cairns map)...

Me create a complicated map...never ! 8-)

so anything that can result in more confusion for the player should be avoided, if a simpler way can be used.

Yes, things need to be simple on this map.
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Re: Salem's Switch [2.9.11] V14-P12 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:47 pm

Here is Version 14.

1. Mainly to do with the fences. Fencing in those days was made mainly from Palisidoes which were cut in half for both uprights and beams, so that is what i have constructed, except around the Old Meeting House.
2. I have also included an option to replace some of the fences with thickett, which has not yet been drawn.
3. First look at a large version

Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Salem's Switch [2.9.11] V14-P12 Fences?

Postby natty dread on Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:06 pm

Damn, I think there's been a mix-up with the dimensions... So now the small is 780 x 600, and the large is 1093 x 840... and it looks a bit unnecessarily large. (although it is nice to see the map in good detail - one of the good sides in vector graphics...)

Hm, when I said that the large could be 840 I was talking about width... back then you had the small image narrower, at 730 x 600, so I was suggesting to make the large 840 x 690... I should have been clearer back then, my bad.

So I guess, now, since you have the small image at 780 x 600, the large one could be something around 910 x 700, which I think would be sufficient for it... sorry if this means lots of extra work for you.
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Re: Salem's Switch [2.9.11] V14-P12 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:38 pm

natty_dread wrote:...
So I guess, now, since you have the small image at 780 x 600, the large one could be something around 910 x 700, which I think would be sufficient for it... sorry if this means lots of extra work for you.

Actually it doesn't mean a lot at this stage, because the large is only a select all + change dimensions to size me up scotty to the larger dimension.

So you want 780 x 600 and i'll meet you halfway at 975 x 750 for the large, only so some of that detail can show and the large still doesn't seem so squashy :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [2.9.11] V14-P12 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:39 pm

So next question, are the fences adequate?
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Re: Salem's Switch [2.9.11] V14-P12 Fences?

Postby ender516 on Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:44 pm

I haven't studied the positioning of the fences yet, but I love their look.
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Re: Salem's Switch [2.9.11] V14-P12 Fences?

Postby cairnswk on Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 am

ender516 wrote:... but I love their look.

Thanks ender516...i'll probably look at them again later in graphics as some are higher than others etc.
But for now they show the impassables that i was meaning to convey.
Next, i'll try to add some trees/thickett as impasables...possibly replace one or two fences with it.
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