Salem's Switch V36 [Quenched]

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Re: Salem's Switch [4.9.11] V15-P13 Impassables?

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:58 am

I really like the new fences, and the trees are a good addition to the darkness of the map (gogo autumn colors!). I do agree that the thickets don't work though. I can't put my finger exactly on what's wrong with them, they just don't look right.
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Re: Salem's Switch [4.9.11] V15-P13 Impassables?

Postby Nola_Lifer on Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:36 pm

Only thicket I don't like is the one between Putnam and Sarah Cloyce. It just seems odd. The others look good though! 8-)
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Re: Salem's Switch [4.9.11] V15-P13 Impassables?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:05 pm

TaCktiX wrote:I really like the new fences, and the trees are a good addition to the darkness of the map (gogo autumn colors!). I do agree that the thickets don't work though. I can't put my finger exactly on what's wrong with them, they just don't look right.


Nola_Lifer wrote:Only thicket I don't like is the one between Putnam and Sarah Cloyce. It just seems odd. The others look good though! 8-)


Uh uh, thanks guys for those coments.
I am working on producing better looking thicket/trees and adjusting the fences.

FOR NOW THOUGH....does the gameplay work?
Apart from Sully, can we get some advice on that please.
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Re: Salem's Switch [4.9.11] V15-P13 Gameplay?

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:36 am

There seem to be a lot of 'isolated' regions that can only break out or be attacked by going through a buggy killer neutral, which could have consequences for escalating games for instance, but really I don't consider that a big deal... it could even be rather interesting.

As for the bonus values... while I agree with Sully's suggestions, particularly with the Witch Hill + Prison + .... bonus, I also think that it is not necessary to focus too much on balancing all of the bonuses against each other. Balance among all gameplay elements is more friendly to beginning players, but really I never considered these kinds of maps to be geared toward that sort of audience- it's a complex, deep strategy map meant to appeal to ambitious or veteran players. I'm not sure it's necessary to tweak all of the bonuses so that they provide comparable benefit for their cost. The map's scheme follows the classic cairnswk 'layer' system where a single region or group of regions can apply to multiple bonuses. Thus, some bonuses could be considered 'kicker'/'support'/'secondary'-type bonuses that would only be pursued as the cherry on the sundae, so to speak, rather than as a core bonus to build a power base. Obviously gross differences in cost vs. benefit among the bonuses could be a problem, but I'm not seeing that here.

That said, the Witch Hill + Prison + Judges + any Hanged bonus should be easier to accomplish than it is, not to balance it against other bonuses so much as to make it more attractive. Witch Hill and the Prison should have more of a spotlight in the gameplay of the map! Thus, my feeling is that the bonus should be strengthened for thematic purposes. Right now, Witch Hill and the Prison are kind of a distant 'secondary' bonus and will probably be ignored in most (not all) games.

I may need to look at the map again with fresh eyes in a day or two, but right now I think it's overall stamp-worthy.

-- Marhsal Ney
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Re: Salem's Switch [4.9.11] V15-P13 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:17 pm

thanks for taking the time to comment on gameplay MarshelNey :)
MarshalNey wrote:There seem to be a lot of 'isolated' regions that can only break out or be attacked by going through a buggy killer neutral, which could have consequences for escalating games for instance, but really I don't consider that a big deal... it could even be rather interesting.

Yes, i think this makes gameplay quite different from other maps out there, and indeed it will be challenging.

As for the bonus values... while I agree with Sully's suggestions, particularly with the Witch Hill + Prison + .... bonus, I also think that it is not necessary to focus too much on balancing all of the bonuses against each other. Balance among all gameplay elements is more friendly to beginning players, but really I never considered these kinds of maps to be geared toward that sort of audience- it's a complex, deep strategy map meant to appeal to ambitious or veteran players. I'm not sure it's necessary to tweak all of the bonuses so that they provide comparable benefit for their cost.

Well, we'll see about that in the first few rounds from all the 'balanced gameplay' buffins. But i would like to have a relateivly balanced game to start.

The map's scheme follows the classic cairnswk 'layer' system where a single region or group of regions can apply to multiple bonuses. Thus, some bonuses could be considered 'kicker'/'support'/'secondary'-type bonuses that would only be pursued as the cherry on the sundae, so to speak, rather than as a core bonus to build a power base. Obviously gross differences in cost vs. benefit among the bonuses could be a problem, but I'm not seeing that here.

I think the landowner bonuses will be the main layer, while the other accused and assuser bonuses etc will rack up later in the game. The fact that you can't get a complete set of landowners in one go without going through buggy stops will at least lengthen the rounds, but no so far as Das Schloss.

That said, the Witch Hill + Prison + Judges + any Hanged bonus should be easier to accomplish than it is, not to balance it against other bonuses so much as to make it more attractive. Witch Hill and the Prison should have more of a spotlight in the gameplay of the map!
Thus, my feeling is that the bonus should be strengthened for thematic purposes. Right now, Witch Hill and the Prison are kind of a distant 'secondary' bonus and will probably be ignored in most (not all) games.

Unfortunately, i can't move the physical location of those terts to the middle of the map, and since they are proabably going to come in at the end of the game, perhaps they should be made an objective do you think?
If the objective come into play, then i would need to see all of Witch Hill, Judges, Prison, Meeting Halls, Accused and Accusers plus Hanged as the objective.

Having said that, I still don't have the starting positions on there, so will put them back on a new version shortly.
These will proably add significant challenges to the gameplay, I was concerned at the those starting terts that were in close vicinity to town, but see what everyone thinks.

I may need to look at the map again with fresh eyes in a day or two, but right now I think it's overall stamp-worthy.
-- Marhsal Ney

thanks for stamp comment, but i think there is a little ways to go yet on this one and gameplay decisions. :)
I look forward to further analysis.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:20 am

Version 16...
Click image to enlarge.
image


...mainly to show the starting positions for gameplay comments.
Sarah Good
Elizabeth Hubbard
Thomas Preston
Tituba
Elizabeth Parris
Ann Putnam Jr
Sarah Osbourne
Sarah Bishop
for now.
That's 8 starters.
Given the gameplay, do we need more starters, and if so, how many more positions.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:55 am

This is a conquest map? I just don't see it as conquest. I see it more as a standard map with dispersion bonuses. Perhaps instead of conquest just have starting neutrals to prevent freebie bonuses?
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:19 am

I think conquest-style fits nicely with the idea of accusations and rumours spreading through the population, but centred on the accusers and accused. That said, I tend to prefer the faster pace of games with few neutrals. So, I'm okay with either setup.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby natty dread on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:30 pm

Adding starting positions does not a conquest map make.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:38 pm

You're right, natty. Cairnswk did suggest the possibility of more starting positions, and the other territories don't have to be neutrals. They could be thrown in the pot and handed out.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:42 pm

The starting positions look okay to me, you would just have to set the max equal to 1, so as no one in 2-4 player games start with a pair.

-Sully
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:48 pm

OK i'm reading above guys....
if we want more starting positions, would the golden numbers come into effect given that most starting positions would be at least one or two neutral terts away
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:51 pm

Hm, looking at it again... Tituba has a large advantage, given there's an Accuser right next door... Hm.

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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:54 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:Hm, looking at it again... Tituba has a large advantage, given there's an Accuser right next door... Hm.
-Sully

Yes she has, so the only thing to do there is for an impassable..i wouldn't want to lose her as starter as she was one of the original accused.
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:55 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Hm, looking at it again... Tituba has a large advantage, given there's an Accuser right next door... Hm.
-Sully

Yes she has, so the only thing to do there is for an impassable..i wouldn't want to lose her as starter as she was one of the original accused.

Too true, my friend! An impassable might be okay, though it would close her off a bit.

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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:59 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:Hm, looking at it again... Tituba has a large advantage, given there's an Accuser right next door... Hm.
-Sully

Yes she has, so the only thing to do there is for an impassable..i wouldn't want to lose her as starter as she was one of the original accused.

Too true, my friend! An impassable might be okay, though it would close her off a bit.

-Sully

in that case, rather than make an impassable, could we up the bonus to 2 accused adn 2 accusers +3...this would also make it harder for others of those pairs.

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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:08 pm

Are we concerned that Tituba is too close to Elizabeth Parris, or just that she is adjacent to Samuel Brabrook?
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:20 pm

ender516 wrote:Are we concerned that Tituba is too close to Elizabeth Parris, or just that she is adjacent to Samuel Brabrook?

Adjacent to Samuel, though you do bring up a good point...

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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:35 pm

The other thing that could be done is too load Samuel Brabrook with a high neutral value like 10 or something that would not allow whoever holds Tituba not to conquer Samauel for at least two rounds.

so the options would be:
1. increase Samuel Brarook neutral value to 10
2. make an impassable fence between Tituba and Samuel Brabrook
3. change the accuser/accesed pair bonus to +3/4 for two of each
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:15 pm

Just spitballing here: what about a road instead of a fence with a new buggy stop where Tituba, Samuel Brabrook, and Elizabeth Parris meet?
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:01 am

TaCktiX wrote:This is a conquest map? I just don't see it as conquest. I see it more as a standard map with dispersion bonuses. Perhaps instead of conquest just have starting neutrals to prevent freebie bonuses?


I agree with this strongly, but if this was meant to be a conquest map from the beginning then of course go with that.

I think some clarification needs to go into the first post. Unfortunately, the specification of neutral vs. open deployment regions on the map was left out of the map template (my fault as I didn't comment in the thread at the time it was being made). Anyway, it's a big deal as far as gameplay is concerned, and I made the assumption that the map was open deployment...

I'll wait to comment on the starting positions until I know for certain whether this is a conquest or open-deployment map.

------------

As for Witch-Hill and the Prison, for now I'd say just lower the requirement for the bonus, although a victory condition would be nice I'd hate to see it clutter the map...

- Marshal Ney
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:05 am

ender516 wrote:Just spitballing here: what about a road instead of a fence with a new buggy stop where Tituba, Samuel Brabrook, and Elizabeth Parris meet?


I'm kinda sorry for this debate that has arisen....
Tituba shouldn't actually own land on the map as she was a slave of the Rev Parris and was accused by Elizabeth Parris and Abigail Williams of withcraft. To this end, she is in the historically wrong position, however she has to be on the map because of her being one of the first accused.

So maybe i need to refocus her tert on something between Betty Parris and and Rev. Parris...i'll have to look at that. :?
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Re: Salem's Switch [7.9.11] V16-P14 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:14 am

MarshalNey wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:This is a conquest map? I just don't see it as conquest. I see it more as a standard map with dispersion bonuses. Perhaps instead of conquest just have starting neutrals to prevent freebie bonuses?


I agree with this strongly, but if this was meant to be a conquest map from the beginning then of course go with that.

I think some clarification needs to go into the first post. Unfortunately, the specification of neutral vs. open deployment regions on the map was left out of the map template (my fault as I didn't comment in the thread at the time it was being made). Anyway, it's a big deal as far as gameplay is concerned, and I made the assumption that the map was open deployment...

I'll wait to comment on the starting positions until I know for certain whether this is a conquest or open-deployment map.

...- Marshal Ney


Well you know guys, my idea was initially for a conquest map where there were starting positions so that the effect of conquering the territories would create the gossip effect. That afterall is what the map is about.
I would like to keep it that way in many respects because of the gossip element it enhances, but i am also aware of the lengthy play that this will create, and that having an open standard map may make for less lengthy play.

I had envisioned 8 starting positions when there was several layers of accused and accusers, but these layers have each become one, and now there is opportunity for more starting positions to be added to fill some of those terts rather than have them all neutral starts.

So iam still inclined to have starting positions with a compromise that there needs to be upwards of 8 starting positions that can be shared amoungst the starters.

Any of the golden numbers 24 to 35 might be suitable.

It's nice to have this gameplay discussion :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [9.9.11] V17-P15 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:15 pm

Version 17.

Changes:
1. Trees and thicket between Putnum and Sarah Cloyce
2. Fence and tree added between Tituba and Samuel Brabrook - i don't think i want to change Tituba to being between the two Parris's as there is not enough room and that would involved a major redraw for little gain since Tituba is isolated anyways.
3. There are now 24 starting positions across the map with not too many in town - this above all is the sorting that needs to be done next.

Questions:
1. Is 24 start positions enough?
2. Does the placement of the 24 start positions need changing on individual terts.

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Re: Salem's Switch [9.9.11] V17-P15 Start Positions?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:41 am

No takers here?
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