Salem's Switch V36 [Quenched]

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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:26 pm

I can see from looking in on games, some players are going straight to fog, and not reading the legend before discovering the buggy stops are killer neutrals...i guess i could say...so what's new :lol:
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby DiM on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:17 am

in Game 10891903 i took a terit from one opponent and now his bonus is +3 instead of +5 so before he even starts the game he's at a big disadvantage.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:16 am

Gilligan wrote:Gameplay thought:

Keep the +1 for accused/accuser, but need to have at least TWO pairs to avoid a 5-deploy first turn and blitzing on other people's starting positions.


thenobodies80 wrote:Almost dead before to play, luckily I played 3rd.... Game 10891429 (and in any case i have to hope that the others will have bad rolls or i'm f***** anyway in the 2nd round)

Agree with gilligan, 5 is too much


DiM wrote:in Game 10891903 i took a terit from one opponent and now his bonus is +3 instead of +5 so before he even starts the game he's at a big disadvantage.


Yes, that needs to change immediately. :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:58 am

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Last edited by cairnswk on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:01 pm

Gillipig posted on my wall
I like the idea of doubling amounts of accusers and accused held to prevent bonus snapping in the first round. Increasing the neutral value of buggy stops will most likely just make it harder to move around the map and less fun.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby DiM on Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:24 pm

i don't think this is what gillipig suggested.

Keep the +1 for accused/accuser, but need to have at least TWO pairs to avoid a 5-deploy first turn and blitzing on other people's starting positions.


as i understand the bonus should remain +1 per pair of accused/accuser but it only comes into place for a minimum of 2 pairs.

1 accused/accuser = 0
2 accused/accuser = +2
3 accused/accuser = +3
4 accused/accuser = +4
...

this is a good solution because it avoids the first turn problem but keeps the smooth increase of the bonus in increments of 1.

what you have on the new version is:
1 accused/accuser = 0
2 accused/accuser = +2
3 accused/accuser = +2
4 accused/accuser = +4
5 accused/accuser = +4

this is not so good because for an increase of the bonus you need to take 2 pairs which is kinda hard to do and it might not be feasible.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby ender516 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:41 pm

We could return to +1 per accused/accuser pair, but reduce the minimum troops from 3 to 1, so everyone starts with +3 instead of +5.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby DiM on Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:02 pm

ender516 wrote:We could return to +1 per accused/accuser pair, but reduce the minimum troops from 3 to 1, so everyone starts with +3 instead of +5.


not really helpful since it would still be possible to break one's bonus before he even starts.
with just a +3 to start you still make a 6 stack and have to attack a 1 and then a 3 to break an opponent's bonus.
the chances for that happening are 54.5%. so it's very likely it will happen plenty of time.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby ender516 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:33 pm

I thought you would need to go through two buggy stops to get one starting position to another, but I have not checked all the possibilities.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby nolefan5311 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:16 pm

In the top paragraph, "against" is spelled "agin". Is that intentional?
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:55 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:In the top paragraph, "against" is spelled "agin". Is that intentional?

Yes
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:42 pm

DiM wrote:i don't think this is what gillipig suggested.

Dim, that was Gilligan that suggested that not Gillipig

Keep the +1 for accused/accuser, but need to have at least TWO pairs to avoid a 5-deploy first turn and blitzing on other people's starting positions.


as i understand the bonus should remain +1 per pair of accused/accuser but it only comes into place for a minimum of 2 pairs.

1 accused/accuser = 0
2 accused/accuser = +2
3 accused/accuser = +3
4 accused/accuser = +4
...

this is a good solution because it avoids the first turn problem but keeps the smooth increase of the bonus in increments of 1.

what you have on the new version is:
1 accused/accuser = 0
2 accused/accuser = +2
3 accused/accuser = +2
4 accused/accuser = +4
5 accused/accuser = +4

this is not so good because for an increase of the bonus you need to take 2 pairs which is kinda hard to do and it might not be feasible.

Mmmm OK. i hear this.

ender516 wrote:We could return to +1 per accused/accuser pair, but reduce the minimum troops from 3 to 1, so everyone starts with +3 instead of +5.

that seems a definite possibility, but does it overcome the serious flaws that start positions are too close?

DiM wrote:
ender516 wrote:We could return to +1 per accused/accuser pair, but reduce the minimum troops from 3 to 1, so everyone starts with +3 instead of +5.


not really helpful since it would still be possible to break one's bonus before he even starts.
with just a +3 to start you still make a 6 stack and have to attack a 1 and then a 3 to break an opponent's bonus.
the chances for that happening are 54.5%. so it's very likely it will happen plenty of time.

agreed about breaking the bonus

ender516 wrote:I thought you would need to go through two buggy stops to get one starting position to another, but I have not checked all the possibilities.

There are 6 places where you can assault an opponent across one buggy stop:
1. Sarah Osbourne to Johnathon Putnam
2. Alice Shflin to Jospeh Buxton
3. Martha Corey to Sarah Good
4. Tituba to Abigail williams
5. Ann Putnam to Macey Lewis
6. Thomas Preston to Rebecca Nurse
but i think these all depend on a board being full i.e. 8 players

It has been my experience (in my 13 games) that i have had starts around the board
Game 10891167 - Start Position 4
Game 10891429 - SP 2
Game 10891444 - SP 7
Game 10891460 - SP 5
Game 10891903 - SP 2
Game 10891946 - SP 8
Game 10892057 - SP 6
Game 10892954 - SP 6
Game 10893426 - SP 7
Game 10897313 - SP 1
Speed Game 10897362 - Sp 6
Game 10897376 - SP 8
Game 10899260 - SP 3
So the random aspect of start is working well per player, but that does not alleviate the possibility of your opponent getting a start on one of those territories opposite you and being one buggy stop away.

At present in the xml there are only 8 start positions.
There are 10 accuser positions (light purple)
There are 15 accused positions outside of town (Deep Violet) which is plenty enough to cover the accuser positions.

i have tried to be somewhat true to the historical aspect of this map, however, from these start positions i see that is not possible.

New Proposals

1. A new lot of start positions
Objective - will put some distance between start positions and provide an overall better redistribution across the map at the expense of the historical factors.

2. This also involves a shift in the border of Giles Corey so he does not border a buggy stop.

2. The buggy stops be lifted from 1 to 2 neutrals
Objective - will stop everyone jumping out of the starting blocks and think more about building some bonuses with landowner positions and not just the accuser/accused pairs

3. To facilitate targeting the landowner positions, i propose they be dropped from [7] for +3 to [4] for +2
Objective - players already start with 1 landowner; this will allow the landowners to be better targeted as a bonus rather than something that is not at present going to be used because it is probably too high.

4. I still feel the accused/accuser pairs should be 2 of each for + 2
Reason - at one pair for +2, it is too easy to gain bonuses, and then incrementally build on them for another +2.
If, as Dim, has shown above, the 2 pair for +2 configuration makes it harder to achieve these bonuses; they rise in pairs of 2, meaning that gaining another pair from 2->3, 4->5 etc, doesn't allow more troop at the next conquer of a pair, but means you have to gain 2 pair for the extra 2 bonus troops. This will also move the play from targeting the accused/accuser pairs to more other bonuses, and make it harder for 1v1 games to wipe each other out quickly.




Current Start Positions
Image
New Propsed Start Positions
Image

New Proposed Start Positions * indicate accused/accuser pairs
1.
    * Sarah Cloyce
    * Elizabeth Hubbard
    Joseph Buxton
2.
    * Sarah Bishop
    * Thomas preston
    Lot Connant
3.
    * Dorcas Hoare
    * Abigail Williams
    James Putnam
4.
    * Ann Putnam Jnr
    * George Jacobs Snr
    C. Blake
5.
    * William Good
    * William Hobbs
    George Corwin
6.
    * Giles Corey
    * Elizabeth Parris
    Natty Dread
7.
    * Samuel Brabrook
    * Sarah Good
    Creasey
8.
    * Jonathon Putnam
    * Elizabeth Proctor
    Buffington Family

For Gilligan, if this is accepted:
Code: Select all
<position>
<territory>Sarah Cloyce</territory>
<territory>Elizabeth Hubbard</territory>
<territory>Joseph Buxton</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Sarah Bishop</territory>
<territory>Lot Conant</territory>
<territory>Thomas Preston</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Dorcas Hoar</territory>
<territory>James Putnam</territory>
<territory>Abigail Williams</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Ann Putnam Jr.</territory>
<territory>George Jacobs Sr.</territory>
<territory>C. Blake</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>George Corwin</territory>
<territory>William Good</territory>
<territory>William Hobbs</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Elizabeth Parris</territory>
<territory>Natty Dread</territory>
<territory>Giles Corey</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Creasey</territory>
<territory>Sarah Good</territory>
<territory>Samuel Brabrook</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Buffington Family</territory>
<territory>Johnathan Putnam</territory>
<territory>Elizabeth Proctor</territory>
</position>
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby grifftron on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:25 pm

I personally do not like the idea of raising the buggies to 2 neutrals, BECAUSE

1) I like the simpleness of moving around the board, it gives players better chances to come back when down terts.

2) If you move them up to 2 neutral, its going to be more luck based as you will be rolling 3 on 2, more chances not to get thru those buggies then if it were 3 on 1 dices.


I do like the idea of starting with +3 instead of +5 tho like posted above, might make people wait a round or 2 before even thinking of busting thru

I also like the idea of starting with more starting points like posted above.

I also suggest thinking of bringing down neutrals across the entire board, instead of 2 neutrals everywhere, possibly 1, making it easier to get bonuses, i have already played 7+ games on the map, never even cared about getting a bonus yet as its not needed... bottom right corner of the map has been useless all 7 games, won all 7.

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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby Gillipig on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:24 am

I don't like the idea of increasing the buggy stop neutrals! Better to change the number of starting territ so you can't snap a bonus in the first turn. I don't think you'll get players to attack landowners in 1 vs 1 anyway. This map will run best in larger games. I think we should try to of course make it fair in 1 vs 1 but not overly complicated.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby ender516 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:04 pm

I suppose we could set the starting positions to start with just two troops instead of the usual three.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:34 pm

ender516 wrote:I suppose we could set the starting positions to start with just two troops instead of the usual three.

That's another possibility. What about the new starting positions as per the bottom map?
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby ender516 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:50 am

Well the new starting positions may help, but allow me to think aloud here, so to speak.

To keep things fair, in every starting position, at least one of the accused/accuser pair must be vulnerable to the same extent. That is, each player must be equally vulnerable to losing that starting bonus. This is complicated by the variation in starting positions depending on the number of players. It would not be practical to arrange this so that every starting position can assault every other starting position in a balanced fashion. I think if we can arrange that every starting position is vulnerable to one other starting position, then we will have done as much as we can reasonably do. That may mean that in a 1 v 1 game, the first player has an advantage. However, if we set the troop numbers low enough, say, with drops of 2 and initial deployment of 1 (for three territories) + 2 (for the acc/acc pair) for a total stack of 5, the chance of breaking the second player's bonus is low (5 v 1,1,2 [buggy stop, buggy stop, opponent's starting territory] is 0.1854 and the chance of leaving yourself open to destruction via counter attack makes the blitz risky. In a 3-player game, one player may be relatively safe while the others battle it out, but I don't see a way around that. In a four-handed game, there may be one or two that are relatively safe. (Just one safe player could occur if some starting positions are vlulnerable to more than one other. If all positions are set up in balanced pairs, then in a 4-player game, you get either zero, two or four relatively safe players.)

Let's look at the new proposed positions and the shortest assault routes exist between them:

New Proposed Start Positions * indicate accused/accuser pairs
    • * Sarah Cloyce
      • -> Bridgette Bishop -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> Danielle Rae-> *Johnathon Putnam[SP8]
      * Elizabeth Hubbard
      • -> B7 -> B8 -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2]
      • -> B7 -> B6 -> James Putnam[SP3]
      • -> Jacob Barney -> Creasey[SP7] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B7 -> B10 -> Creasey[SP7]
      Joseph Buxton
      • -> B13 -> B9 -> *Thomas Preston[SP2]
      • -> B13 -> B17 -> George Jacobs Sr.[SP4]
    • * Sarah Bishop
      • -> Bridgette Bishop -> *Sarah Cloyce[SP1] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B8 -> B7-> *Elizabeth Hubbard[SP1]
      • -> B8 -> B11 -> Natty Dread[SP6]
      • -> B8 -> Old Planter Farms ->Lot Conant[SP2] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> B8 -> J. Raymont -> C. Blake[SP4] -- too far to be a risk[/i] UNFAIR
      * Thomas Preston
      • -> B9 -> B13 -> Joseph Buxton[SP1]
      • -> B5 -> B4 -> *Abigail Williams[SP3]
      • -> B9 -> B6 -> James Putnam[SP3]
      Lot Conant
      • -> Old Planter Farms -> B8 -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
    • * Dorcas Hoare
      • -> Rev. Hale -> B14 -> Natty Dread[SP6] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      * Abigail Williams
      • -> Mary Walcott-> *William Good[SP5] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B4 -> B12 -> *William Good[SP5]
      • -> B4 -> B5-> *Thomas Preston[SP2]
      • -> B4 -> B1 -> *Ann Putnam Jr.[SP4]
      • ->B4 -> Rev. Parris -> *Elizabeth Parris[SP6] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      James Putnam
      • -> B6 -> B7 -> *Elizabeth Hubbard[SP1]
      • -> B6 -> B9 -> *Thomas Preston[SP2]
      • -> B6 -> B3 -> *Johnathon Putnam[SP8]
    • * Ann Putnam Jnr
      • -> Exekial Cheever ->*William Hobbs[SP5] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B1 -> B2 ->*William Hobbs[SP5]
      • ->B1 -> B4 -> *Abigail Williams[SP3]
      • -> B1 -> Edward Putnam -> *Samuel Brabrook[SP7] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      * George Jacobs Snr
      • -> B17 -> B13 -> Joseph Buxton
      • -> B15 -> B14 -> Natty Dread
      C. Blake
      • -> J. Raymont -> B8 -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
    • * William Good
      • -> Mary Walcott-> *Abigail Williams[SP3] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B12 -> B4 -> *Abigail Williams[SP3]
      • -> B12 -> Dorcas Good -> *Sarah Good[SP7] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> B12 -> Martha Corey-> *Giles Corey[SP6] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> B12 -> B16 -> John Proctor -> *Elizabeth Proctor[SP8] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR perhaps instead *John Proctor[SP8]
      * William Hobbs
      • -> B2 -> B1 -> *Ann Putnam Jr.[SP4]
      • -> B2 -> B3 -> *Johnathon Putnam[SP8]
      George Corwin
      • -> Trasks Mills -> B17 -> *George Jacobs Sr.[SP4] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> Trasks Mills -> B19 -> B18 -> Buffington Family[SP8] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
    • * Giles Corey
      • -> Martha Corey -> B12 -> *William Good[SP5] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> Martha Corey -> Dorcas Good -> *Sarah Good[SP7] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      * Elizabeth Parris
      • -> Rev. Parris ->B4 -> *Abigail Williams[SP3] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      Natty Dread
      • -> B14 -> B15 -> *George Jacobs Sr.[SP4]
      • -> B11 -> B10 -> Creasey[SP7]
      • -> B11 -> B8 -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2]
      • -> B14 -> Rev. Hale -> *Dorcas Hoar[SP3] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
    • * Samuel Brabrook
      • -> Edward Putnam -> B1 -> *Ann Putnam Jr.[SP4] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      * Sarah Good
      • -> Dorcas Good -> B12 -> *William Good[SP5] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> Dorcas Good -> Martha Corey-> *Giles Corey[SP6] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      Creasey
      • -> B10 -> B11 -> Natty Dread[SP6]
      • -> Jacob Barney -> *Elizabeth Hubbard[SP1] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B10 -> B7 -> *Elizabeth Hubbard[SP1]
    • * Jonathon Putnam
      • -> Daniel Rae -> *Sarah Cloyce[SP1] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B3 -> B6 -> James Putnam
      • -> B3 -> B2 -> William Hobbs[SP5]
      * Elizabeth Proctor
      • -> John Proctor -> B16 -> B12 -> *William Good[SP5] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR perhaps instead *John Proctor[SP8]
      Buffington Family
      • -> B18 -> B16 -> John Proctor -> *Elizabeth Proctor[SP8] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
        better if instead *John Proctor[SP8], but this is in same starting position [SP8], so maybe swap Buffington Family with other landowner in another SP

The assault routes that are too easy may be reparable with some fences, but the ones that are too far will need something else. As I noted, I think using John Proctor instead of Elizabeth Proctor could be a good idea.

What we may need to do is to list all short assault routes among all the accused and accusers, and see if we can select a set that defines a workable collection of starting positions.

Or maybe a different tack: set up starting positions which contain acc/acc pairs which are adjacent to each other, or nearly so (one buggy stop), and then make sure those pairs are well separated. This would likely require a few border changes to draw together the pairs. Off the top of my head, I imagine the following pairings:
  1. Ann Putnam Jr., William Hobbs
  2. Marcy Lewis, Susannah Martin
  3. Elizabeth Parris, Sarah Osbourne
  4. Johnathon Putnam, Sarah Cloyce
  5. Elizabeth Harris, Sarah Bishop
  6. Thomas Preston, Rebecca Nurse
  7. Abigail Williams, Sarah Good
  8. William Good, Martha Corey
I won't elaborate now on the details of how the borders would have to change, as I have been writing this post for close to three hours, and I will admit that I am not certain that it can all be worked out, including the separation I mentioned, but it's a jumping off point.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby army of nobunaga on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:16 am

JUst played my first turn... I think we all need 30 turns before we comment...;

That is like my personal rule of thumb.

When he released cricket I played 5 turns, got eliminated.... and cursed him and his linear choke-point maps... I was wrong and admitted it in the thread.

This may need a lot of revision, but I am searching the games from some of you... some of you had not even played a turn.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby DiM on Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:41 am

i may be wrong but i think the term "killer neutrals" is not something clear for everybody.
i see people taking buggy stops and advancing everything there not knowing they're gonna lose those troops.
maybe replace "buggy stops are killer neutrals" with "buggy stops revert to 1 neutral each turn"
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:07 am

DiM wrote:i may be wrong but i think the term "killer neutrals" is not something clear for everybody.
i see people taking buggy stops and advancing everything there not knowing they're gonna lose those troops.
maybe replace "buggy stops are killer neutrals" with "buggy stops revert to 1 neutral each turn"


I agree Dim from my experience. Changes to the map are as below for this; at least we can get that off to lackattack quickly while deciding what others to make.

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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby DiM on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:53 pm

you say you agree but on the map it's still "killer neutrals" :-s
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:20 pm

DiM wrote:you say you agree but on the map it's still "killer neutrals" :-s

in the game play map it probably does because the above maps have not been uploaed yet. If you still seeing the old version Ctrl + F5
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:07 am

Actually, "the end of each turn" is wrong... killer neutrals reset at the beginning of the turn of the player that holds them.

I think it'd be best to just write "reset to 1 neutral" and nothing else.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:23 am

natty dread wrote:Actually, "the end of each turn" is wrong... killer neutrals reset at the beginning of the turn of the player that holds them.

I think it'd be best to just write "reset to 1 neutral" and nothing else.

natty, refresh your image...i've changed that in the above but have left the start of each turn there so that there is no confusion as to when it happens
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:47 am

Killer neutrals do not reset to 1 neutral at the start of each turn though. They reset if held.

Buggy stop junctions revert to 1 neutral if held {at the start or your turn}- would be a better way without any confusion.
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