Salem's Switch V36 [Quenched]

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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:34 pm

ender516 wrote:I suppose we could set the starting positions to start with just two troops instead of the usual three.

That's another possibility. What about the new starting positions as per the bottom map?
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby ender516 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:50 am

Well the new starting positions may help, but allow me to think aloud here, so to speak.

To keep things fair, in every starting position, at least one of the accused/accuser pair must be vulnerable to the same extent. That is, each player must be equally vulnerable to losing that starting bonus. This is complicated by the variation in starting positions depending on the number of players. It would not be practical to arrange this so that every starting position can assault every other starting position in a balanced fashion. I think if we can arrange that every starting position is vulnerable to one other starting position, then we will have done as much as we can reasonably do. That may mean that in a 1 v 1 game, the first player has an advantage. However, if we set the troop numbers low enough, say, with drops of 2 and initial deployment of 1 (for three territories) + 2 (for the acc/acc pair) for a total stack of 5, the chance of breaking the second player's bonus is low (5 v 1,1,2 [buggy stop, buggy stop, opponent's starting territory] is 0.1854 and the chance of leaving yourself open to destruction via counter attack makes the blitz risky. In a 3-player game, one player may be relatively safe while the others battle it out, but I don't see a way around that. In a four-handed game, there may be one or two that are relatively safe. (Just one safe player could occur if some starting positions are vlulnerable to more than one other. If all positions are set up in balanced pairs, then in a 4-player game, you get either zero, two or four relatively safe players.)

Let's look at the new proposed positions and the shortest assault routes exist between them:

New Proposed Start Positions * indicate accused/accuser pairs
    • * Sarah Cloyce
      • -> Bridgette Bishop -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> Danielle Rae-> *Johnathon Putnam[SP8]
      * Elizabeth Hubbard
      • -> B7 -> B8 -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2]
      • -> B7 -> B6 -> James Putnam[SP3]
      • -> Jacob Barney -> Creasey[SP7] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B7 -> B10 -> Creasey[SP7]
      Joseph Buxton
      • -> B13 -> B9 -> *Thomas Preston[SP2]
      • -> B13 -> B17 -> George Jacobs Sr.[SP4]
    • * Sarah Bishop
      • -> Bridgette Bishop -> *Sarah Cloyce[SP1] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B8 -> B7-> *Elizabeth Hubbard[SP1]
      • -> B8 -> B11 -> Natty Dread[SP6]
      • -> B8 -> Old Planter Farms ->Lot Conant[SP2] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> B8 -> J. Raymont -> C. Blake[SP4] -- too far to be a risk[/i] UNFAIR
      * Thomas Preston
      • -> B9 -> B13 -> Joseph Buxton[SP1]
      • -> B5 -> B4 -> *Abigail Williams[SP3]
      • -> B9 -> B6 -> James Putnam[SP3]
      Lot Conant
      • -> Old Planter Farms -> B8 -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
    • * Dorcas Hoare
      • -> Rev. Hale -> B14 -> Natty Dread[SP6] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      * Abigail Williams
      • -> Mary Walcott-> *William Good[SP5] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B4 -> B12 -> *William Good[SP5]
      • -> B4 -> B5-> *Thomas Preston[SP2]
      • -> B4 -> B1 -> *Ann Putnam Jr.[SP4]
      • ->B4 -> Rev. Parris -> *Elizabeth Parris[SP6] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      James Putnam
      • -> B6 -> B7 -> *Elizabeth Hubbard[SP1]
      • -> B6 -> B9 -> *Thomas Preston[SP2]
      • -> B6 -> B3 -> *Johnathon Putnam[SP8]
    • * Ann Putnam Jnr
      • -> Exekial Cheever ->*William Hobbs[SP5] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B1 -> B2 ->*William Hobbs[SP5]
      • ->B1 -> B4 -> *Abigail Williams[SP3]
      • -> B1 -> Edward Putnam -> *Samuel Brabrook[SP7] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      * George Jacobs Snr
      • -> B17 -> B13 -> Joseph Buxton
      • -> B15 -> B14 -> Natty Dread
      C. Blake
      • -> J. Raymont -> B8 -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
    • * William Good
      • -> Mary Walcott-> *Abigail Williams[SP3] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B12 -> B4 -> *Abigail Williams[SP3]
      • -> B12 -> Dorcas Good -> *Sarah Good[SP7] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> B12 -> Martha Corey-> *Giles Corey[SP6] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> B12 -> B16 -> John Proctor -> *Elizabeth Proctor[SP8] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR perhaps instead *John Proctor[SP8]
      * William Hobbs
      • -> B2 -> B1 -> *Ann Putnam Jr.[SP4]
      • -> B2 -> B3 -> *Johnathon Putnam[SP8]
      George Corwin
      • -> Trasks Mills -> B17 -> *George Jacobs Sr.[SP4] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> Trasks Mills -> B19 -> B18 -> Buffington Family[SP8] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
    • * Giles Corey
      • -> Martha Corey -> B12 -> *William Good[SP5] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> Martha Corey -> Dorcas Good -> *Sarah Good[SP7] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      * Elizabeth Parris
      • -> Rev. Parris ->B4 -> *Abigail Williams[SP3] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      Natty Dread
      • -> B14 -> B15 -> *George Jacobs Sr.[SP4]
      • -> B11 -> B10 -> Creasey[SP7]
      • -> B11 -> B8 -> *Sarah Bishop[SP2]
      • -> B14 -> Rev. Hale -> *Dorcas Hoar[SP3] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
    • * Samuel Brabrook
      • -> Edward Putnam -> B1 -> *Ann Putnam Jr.[SP4] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      * Sarah Good
      • -> Dorcas Good -> B12 -> *William Good[SP5] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      • -> Dorcas Good -> Martha Corey-> *Giles Corey[SP6] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
      Creasey
      • -> B10 -> B11 -> Natty Dread[SP6]
      • -> Jacob Barney -> *Elizabeth Hubbard[SP1] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B10 -> B7 -> *Elizabeth Hubbard[SP1]
    • * Jonathon Putnam
      • -> Daniel Rae -> *Sarah Cloyce[SP1] -- too easy - UNFAIR
      • -> B3 -> B6 -> James Putnam
      • -> B3 -> B2 -> William Hobbs[SP5]
      * Elizabeth Proctor
      • -> John Proctor -> B16 -> B12 -> *William Good[SP5] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR perhaps instead *John Proctor[SP8]
      Buffington Family
      • -> B18 -> B16 -> John Proctor -> *Elizabeth Proctor[SP8] -- too far to be a risk UNFAIR
        better if instead *John Proctor[SP8], but this is in same starting position [SP8], so maybe swap Buffington Family with other landowner in another SP

The assault routes that are too easy may be reparable with some fences, but the ones that are too far will need something else. As I noted, I think using John Proctor instead of Elizabeth Proctor could be a good idea.

What we may need to do is to list all short assault routes among all the accused and accusers, and see if we can select a set that defines a workable collection of starting positions.

Or maybe a different tack: set up starting positions which contain acc/acc pairs which are adjacent to each other, or nearly so (one buggy stop), and then make sure those pairs are well separated. This would likely require a few border changes to draw together the pairs. Off the top of my head, I imagine the following pairings:
  1. Ann Putnam Jr., William Hobbs
  2. Marcy Lewis, Susannah Martin
  3. Elizabeth Parris, Sarah Osbourne
  4. Johnathon Putnam, Sarah Cloyce
  5. Elizabeth Harris, Sarah Bishop
  6. Thomas Preston, Rebecca Nurse
  7. Abigail Williams, Sarah Good
  8. William Good, Martha Corey
I won't elaborate now on the details of how the borders would have to change, as I have been writing this post for close to three hours, and I will admit that I am not certain that it can all be worked out, including the separation I mentioned, but it's a jumping off point.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby army of nobunaga on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:16 am

JUst played my first turn... I think we all need 30 turns before we comment...;

That is like my personal rule of thumb.

When he released cricket I played 5 turns, got eliminated.... and cursed him and his linear choke-point maps... I was wrong and admitted it in the thread.

This may need a lot of revision, but I am searching the games from some of you... some of you had not even played a turn.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby DiM on Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:41 am

i may be wrong but i think the term "killer neutrals" is not something clear for everybody.
i see people taking buggy stops and advancing everything there not knowing they're gonna lose those troops.
maybe replace "buggy stops are killer neutrals" with "buggy stops revert to 1 neutral each turn"
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:07 am

DiM wrote:i may be wrong but i think the term "killer neutrals" is not something clear for everybody.
i see people taking buggy stops and advancing everything there not knowing they're gonna lose those troops.
maybe replace "buggy stops are killer neutrals" with "buggy stops revert to 1 neutral each turn"


I agree Dim from my experience. Changes to the map are as below for this; at least we can get that off to lackattack quickly while deciding what others to make.

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http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... V34Scd.png
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... V34Lcd.png
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby DiM on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:53 pm

you say you agree but on the map it's still "killer neutrals" :-s
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:20 pm

DiM wrote:you say you agree but on the map it's still "killer neutrals" :-s

in the game play map it probably does because the above maps have not been uploaed yet. If you still seeing the old version Ctrl + F5
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:07 am

Actually, "the end of each turn" is wrong... killer neutrals reset at the beginning of the turn of the player that holds them.

I think it'd be best to just write "reset to 1 neutral" and nothing else.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:23 am

natty dread wrote:Actually, "the end of each turn" is wrong... killer neutrals reset at the beginning of the turn of the player that holds them.

I think it'd be best to just write "reset to 1 neutral" and nothing else.

natty, refresh your image...i've changed that in the above but have left the start of each turn there so that there is no confusion as to when it happens
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:47 am

Killer neutrals do not reset to 1 neutral at the start of each turn though. They reset if held.

Buggy stop junctions revert to 1 neutral if held {at the start or your turn}- would be a better way without any confusion.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:08 am

koontz1973 wrote:Killer neutrals do not reset to 1 neutral at the start of each turn though. They reset if held.

Buggy stop junctions revert to 1 neutral if held {at the start or your turn}- would be a better way without any confusion.


koontz1973...pls refresh thanks
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby danfrank on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:18 pm

Just reading the little bit you have going on about starting positions . ( i had no idea the map is historically correct , nice work C , thats pretty cool ) I agree that the game revolves around the accuser and accused pairs , i also feel that the map is not balanced , theres no reason to head into the township in a singles game . Gaining the witch and prison bonus would never happen in the current set up. I like the historical aspect and appreciate the research done to make this possible but...
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:27 pm

danfrank wrote:Just reading the little bit you have going on about starting positions . ( i had no idea the map is historically correct , nice work C , thats pretty cool ) I agree that the game revolves around the accuser and accused pairs , i also feel that the map is not balanced , theres no reason to head into the township in a singles game . Gaining the witch and prison bonus would never happen in the current set up. I like the historical aspect and appreciate the research done to make this possible but...

Thanks danfrank...although do realise this actually is a large area and there are many land tennants/owners that are not on this map for sheer space reasons and layout. Tituba for exmaple, was a slave belonging to Samual Parris, but because she is so instrumental to the story i.e. first person accussed and first person top confess to "witchcraft", she became a "territory" on the map. So really, while there a research behind the map, as always with my maps, in order to "create" something suitable for CC's purposes, one has to use creative license loosely based around that research.
Yes, the map is not balanced at present, and that is why i suggested a new set of starts to balance it better. Unfortunately these things are not always evident until BETA arrives. I appreciate your comments though. :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:22 pm


Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:56 pm

^^^ thanks tnb80.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:08 pm

Images updated. ;)

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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby ghirrindin on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:21 am

Mobility seems dependent on roads that are also killer neutrals. Is it possible to play this map on the trench setting?

In other words, if I were to attack a road, I would not be able to advance any farther, and the same would go for my opponents. Any armies left on the road would revert to neutral 1.

Seems relevant to random map settings. I don't want to find myself in a game that is impossible to win.

Apologies if you have already addressed this problem.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:24 am

yes it is possible to play this trench setting
the road is limiting, yes, but then so is trench.
i actually won my match on trench which was a first for me :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby ghirrindin on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:27 am

Yes, yes! I hadn't read the trench rules close enough. I now see in the headline post that it does not apply to killer neutral territories. Sorry for my incomplete understanding of the setting.

I do love the map, by the way. =)
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby blackjoke on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:49 pm

Just a thought for future maps. The death on road configuration would be great fo a Berlin, Stalingrad or Monte Cassino street fight map.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:45 am

ghirrindin wrote:Yes, yes! I hadn't read the trench rules close enough. I now see in the headline post that it does not apply to killer neutral territories. Sorry for my incomplete understanding of the setting.

I do love the map, by the way. =)

Excellent :)

blackjoke wrote:Just a thought for future maps. The death on road configuration would be great fo a Berlin, Stalingrad or Monte Cassino street fight map.

Yes blackjoke...could be something there! :)
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:46 am

An xml fix...
J. Trask now included in landowners bonus in attached xml.
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salem_V33.xml
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Private cairnswk
 
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby chevy1269 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:33 pm

game 10909346 have 7 landowners but not receiving 3 bonus for them ? is this a bug or am i missing something in the bonus descriptions 7 landowners 3 bonus is what i read . red right hand side .

thanks eric
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby Gilligan on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:44 pm

chevy1269 wrote:game 10909346 have 7 landowners but not receiving 3 bonus for them ? is this a bug or am i missing something in the bonus descriptions 7 landowners 3 bonus is what i read . red right hand side .

thanks eric


I accidentally missed J. Trask in the XML. Since it's fog, I can't see, but if you have J. Trask that is why.
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Re: Salem's Switch [17.3.12] V33-P31 BETA Live!

Postby cairnswk on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:51 pm

cairnswk wrote:An xml fix...
J. Trask now included in landowners bonus in attached xml.

Just waiting on Gilligan to check this before getting it to lackattack for updating... :)
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