Indochina Map [Done]

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Postby freakshow on Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:24 pm

Ok points well taken, I'll mess with the visuals alittle and maybe add an impassible boundry, no can do with moving the names inside the countries though, the map is just to narrow.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:22 pm

I'm sorry to see the map is up and no changes were made, even minor visual ones. Only time will what happens to the map.

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Postby freakshow on Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:33 pm

actually I stand by the fact that changes will be made I'm just kinda busy for a week or so, expect changes soon.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:34 pm

Then I don't quite understand submitting an unfinished map, that is if drastic changes are going to be made (either in playability or visuals...or both).

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Postby Marvaddin on Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:23 pm

Agreed, you cant send unfinished maps.
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Postby freakshow on Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:44 pm

actually the map was finished at least structurally, I decided not to add any impassables, it plays fairly well altough I will admit the games are considerable shorter than normal.
I've sent this new image off to lack so you should see it replacing the large map in a few days, I'll get started on a diffrent smaller version soon.
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Postby PaperPlunger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:49 pm

cool
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Postby Charbroil on Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:55 pm

Better, but there are natural mountains between Ha Tinh and the west, so could you at least cut Ha Tinh off from what's further west? Thank you.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:03 pm

Well this map looks a dab more appealing than it previously did. It's getting closer to finished, but I still have to say that it must go further. There is no rush to finish a map in a few days. Take longer on them and make them what they truly can be! That said,

~Visual Appeal~

---It's come quite a way from your original map. Kudos on that. But it still feels like a bland cereal box drawing. Give it textures and subtle tones of color change. Each country should feel like it's a country, rather than simply a plot of land. Even the water, Thailand, and China could benefit from some sort of texture.

---The text choice is alright, though it seems some countries are bolder, while others are thinner. Vientiane and Hua Phan for instance. Try to keep a consistency. Minor suggestion of making the Gulf of Tonkin larger, just so as not to confuse anyone that is is a country. Perhaps you can make it larger and more elaborate, same goes for South China Sea and the Gulf of Thailand, along with the Thaild and China. All of them could be larger and more eleaborate to improve the quality of the map.

---Legend is alright, could use a little sprucing up but I think it is currently the least of your worries.

============================================

~~~Nitty Gritty~~~

---I cannot stand the continent of Laos. It has 7 borders, way too many. It's a 'Lost Continent'.

---Annam isn't any better, it has 6 countries, 5 of them borders. Also seems rather lost.

---Cambodia has 4 borders, it's doing slightly better than the rest.

---Tonkin is actually near balance, amazingly enough.

---Cochinchina has 3 borders and 3 countries, I think it could definitely use a knock down to 2 borders.

------Also...I still count 31 countries...bad number.

==============================

Many people have suggested some sort of impassable boundaries, and you have excluded them. Now maps can work without them, if they are well put together and generally balanced (I.E. Classic Map). I wholeheartedly must agree with them on this issue. Something must be done to make this map playable.

I suggest buckling down and working on this map some more. As I said, there isn't a need to rush a map through the process of quality control. It is a needed process and helps make maps better. I see a lot of potential in this map, but a lot of it has gone to waste currently.



--Andy
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Postby freakshow on Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:37 pm

I'm sorry but until you've played on this map I fail to see how you can call it unplayable.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:42 pm

Once I've an open spot I'll give it a shot. Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against you, just your rush to see this map finished. I just want CC to have the best possible maps. :)

Edit: I've got a game up and running and once I finish it I'll give a detailed analysis of how it went.

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Last edited by AndyDufresne on Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Marvaddin on Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:26 pm

This map sucks because the continents arent well designed. They have much more borders than they should. The single exception is Tonkin. 31 is a fucking number. You should use a different font for the oceans, too (Gulf of Tonkin seems a name of a country). Textures would be welcome...

By the way, you was trying do the worst legend ever, too... This isnt difficult, centralize the longer name, put the names exactly under the others, use bars of same width...

Its much less ridiculous than the previous version, I admit. But if you dont increase the playability, it will be a forgotten map very soon. All map is more played in the beggining, then the better ones are more played. The Crossword "map", as I warned, is the less used. And yours will be the same too, believe me.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:31 pm

Okay, I recently finished a game on the current Indochina map that is up for playing. These are some things I've noticed from doing a playtest.

________________________________________

---The southern portion of the map is extremely powerful. Once you take over say Cochinchina and cambodia, you can limit yourself to 2 borders in the center of the dumbell bottleneck. This gives you a quick 7 for 2 borders. Annam is impossible to hold, as I stated before, especially when the tactic of taking over the southern portion of the map is employed. The northern portion is not as strong as the south, but obviously better than the middle. In the north a bonus of 3 can easily be gotten, and you can also limit yourself to 2 borders in the center bottleneck. Laos is also nearly impossible to hold for this reason.

---The bottleneck is a main problem with how the map currently is. The map really only seems to have 3 areas. The Strong South with two continents, and the North with 1, and then lastly 'No Man's Land' in between--the 7 countries that make up the bottle neck. This nearly becomes only a war on 1 front. Now I played a 3 person game, and the person toward the south had the greatest advantage. The person in the north was still doing alright, but the player in the middle was utterly screwed due to lack of any continents worth holding.

---I'm not sure how you can change the bottleneck, without adding more countries (which surely a few should be added considering there are only 31). Impassable borders would greatly benefit Laos and Annam. Perhaps then the map might not then divulge into a 1 front war.


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Postby lilwdlnddude on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:13 pm

Yeah im in 2 indochina games and annam is REALLY hard to hold because maybe, 9 countries are bordering it?? it is touching every "continent" on the map. same with laos only cochinchina isnt touching it. but maybe thats the point of the map. to have a "no mans land". I dont know... I guess it just requires alot of quick decisions, and if thoes are bad decisions then your screwed.
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Postby Marvaddin on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:15 pm

Andy, sometimes I think you are crazy. Did you REALLY play THIS map?? I cant believe :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:31 pm

Yeah, I played it. It was one of the weirdest games of my life. I figured I would give it a shot in play, and as it stands now it failed. But its going to be worked one (and maybe even with impassable borders!) ;)

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Postby freakshow on Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:48 am

Yeah I was looking at a map of Indochina and I figured I may as well do a mock up of my map with realistic uncrossable borders, what do you think?
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Postby kevinc on Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:24 am

I've been playing games with this map and seems like it has a lot of promise. Hard to say if the two big continents are good or bad yet.

I think it's good if every map doesn't have the same dynamic as the classic map, so it's not neccessarily a bad thing.

(Also, I actually liked the simplicity and strong colours of the original map more than the new one)
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Postby Black Jack on Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:37 am

IMO, this map has potential as a Triples game.

One team is the "gov't" and the other is the "Viet Minh" :wink: :)

I looked at a couple of strategic VietNam game-maps... that I own.

Both use a combination of mountains and rivers to regulate movement.

The Mekong and several other rivers... are not insignificant bodies of water.
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Postby freakshow on Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:31 am

What I was wondering is if anyone had any advice on which borders are needed in which places, Marv I know you'll have a say in this and I will take your considerations to heart.
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Postby Black Jack on Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:55 am

A couple of online maps... showing the rivers of Indochina:

Map #1 - Rivers

Map #2 - Rivers

I'm still searching for a good map that shows the mountains.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Found a good one:

Map #3 - Mountains
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Postby Marvaddin on Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:46 am

Oh, well... the problem is the bottleneck, and it will still be there after these mountains. I edited it a bit, and its much more playable now, but it cant be the final version.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f44/M ... alarge.png

I want suggest you some things:
1) You can add Thailand and Malaysia to the map
2) Split some countries would be good. Examples: Sainyabuli, Cao Bang, Ko Kong, Pleiku, etc.

The true point: the bottleneck cant be of both Laos and Vietnam, it will kill the map!!
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Postby freakshow on Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:17 pm

Marv, thanks for the input but If it add Thailand and malaysia I lose the fact that it's the French colony of indo china. Splitting countries will be hard as I'm fairly pressed of space already. I was considering adding some ports and possible the ability to conquer areas like the tonkin gulf and the southchina sea, this could bring the country count up to 36, which I know you like. Your edits are interesting but totally unreasonable as they ignore any historical borders that exist. In real life French Indochina was divided into the areas I have on my maps, today Cochinchina, Annam, and Laos form Vietnam. I'm willing to sacrifice some things for playablity but throwing away any historical accuracy is going a little to far.
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Postby Marvaddin on Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:10 pm

Well, I dont know if your map is historical or a normal geo map... :)

I undertsand, and I think you are right, but no need to be 100% accurate. You will need change some borders. And I cant believe you are talking its difficult split some countries there...

But in fact, the truth is: the central region cant belong to 2 continents. You can call it "Central Indochina" or anything, but split it into 2 continents is impossible. How about the following continents: Central Indochina, North Laos (or another name), Tonkin (or Norht Vietnam), Cambodia, and South Vietnam (or Annam)? We can forget Cochinchina, or with some new countries we can maybe have 3 continents in the south side of the map

Sea ports? Are you serious? It will be worse, since we had already excess of borders...

Seriously, I know we can have 36 countries. And we need get free from the bottleneck. After that, the rest we can correct.
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Postby Black Jack on Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:18 pm

And we need get free from the bottleneck.


I would think that the use of ports... would help break-up the bottleneck.

I think five ports should be added ... this brings us up to 36 territories.

Ports are only connected to other adjacent ports... movement/attacking is no different than from Brazil to N. Africa.

There are now three north-south lines of advance... instead of two.

Also, as Marv said... be flexible with your continents.

Balance is more important... than historical accuracy.
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