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Postby rocksolid on Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:33 pm

Dread Wains wrote:Mr. Solid,

I think that maybe you want to avoid having borders of countries that converge into a single point, such as Ste-Anne, Kirland, Baie d'Urfe, and Beaconsfield. It is not clear whether Beaconsfield can attack Ste-Anne or whether Kirkland can attack Baie d'Urfe.


I'm really reluctant to mess with that for the not very good reason that it's true-to-life accurate. I have gone to that point on the island in the past and painted a chalk picture of Dread Wains and congratulated myself on inflicting your image on 4 suburbs at the same time. If I cleaned it up a bit to make it clear that none of them can cross-attack, would that do it?

Dread Wains wrote:I'm also thinking it would be more interesting to add some fictional bridges. St-Francois to Riviere-des-Prairies for example would make Laval more vulnerable. Or maybe St-Lambert to Nun's Island.


There's non-fictional bridges from Nun's Island to St-Lambert and Pont-Viau to Ahuntsic and Duvernay to Mtl-Nord that I erased. The Nun's Island one disappeared because I wanted to make the West End a little easier to hold and because I originally wanted to draw in a little icon of Jose Theodore's house with a for-sale sign; the Pont-Viau and Duvernay ones vanished to make Transalpinia a little less impossible to hold. What do people think?

Dread Wains wrote:Here's an idea for our revered CC Founder: allow maps to define certain "express lanes" that can transport troops between any two countries bordering such a lane, during a fortification. An example would be the Lachine Canal. For example, Lachine could send a barge of troops all the way Downtown in one move.


This can already be done as is as long as the express lanes allow for attack as well as fortification, if I'm not mistaken, by just making them adjacent in the xml file. But the main reason I widened the canal was to create an obstacle to make things a little less wide-open, not open things up. More voices on this...

And speaking of filthy wastelands, Mr. Wains, I was thinking of making whoever holds Pointe-Claire (or at least the Cedar Park part of it) incur a 1 army penalty per turn, just because.

Looking forward to slide tackling your ankles with sharpened cleats,

Señor Solido
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Postby Marvaddin on Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:36 pm

Put here the continent-by-continent analysis, and you will find some things wrong, for example that pink continent being connected to only one country.

Suggestions: dont waste those grey regions, they can be better used; on other hand, who will care about a continent of bonus 1? Please increase it a bit...
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Postby rocksolid on Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:34 pm

Here goes...

Ile Bizard (teal) - 3 countries, 1 border country, 1 entry country, bonus 1
Suburbia (green) - 9 countries, 3 borderers, 3 entries, 4
West End (purple) - 8 countries, 3 border, 3 ents, 5
Transalpinia (brown) - 6, 4 border, 7 ents, 6
Ville-Marie (blue) - 4, 3 border, 5 ents, 2 + 1 for downtown so 3 if you hold the whole thing
Laval (pink) - 7, 2 border, 1 ent, 3
Bout-de-L'ile (red) - 6 countries, 3 border, 5 entries, 4
Longueuil (orange) - 5 countries, 2 border, 2 ents, 2

I have to say I'm not overly sympathetic to orthodoxy in bonuses, eg "Suburbia is like North America so it should necessarily be 5." I think every board will have overvalued and undervalued continents - why are South America and Australia worth the same, after all? - and I think some unusual patterns that don't pop up on the classic map are part of what makes new maps a true test for the high-end strategists like Marv - i.e. how to identify the overvalued continents and prioritize for them, and deal with situations you've never had to deal with before, like a 7-country continent with only one entry country. That's kind of why I like the possibility of a tiny 3-country continent with a bonus of only one - if it's not worth fighting over, well, I guess no one will fight over it, or the wise players will let the unwise fight over it. Or a continent rich in territories but with no bonus at all, so the countries are only good for income? Maybe that would be one way to satisfy Wains' hatred of Laval.

The only real danger I see with bonuses is where one continent is so overvalued relative to all the rest that the game is effectively determined the moment someone gains control of it. Like if on a classic board Australia was worth 4.

That said, looking at Laval again, Wains + Marv's wisdom does seem to be pushing me towards re-installing the Mtl-Nord to Duvernay bridge. And please don't let my above blathering about liking odd bonuses get in the way of good arguments for changing the ones up here.
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Postby rocksolid on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:04 pm

Next version, with some suggestions taken:

- Water darkened
- slight texture added (meant to reflect relief of actual island, but doesn't quite catch it)
- New bridge added to Laval from Mtl-Nord to Duvernay
- Kirkland/Baie d'Urfe/Beaconsfield/Ste-Anne's corner meant to be clearer

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And, just for fun, the "I like the nightlife" version, which I think is way too sexy to ever be played on.

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Postby dissolution on Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:14 pm

what about adding varennes next to boucherville, and i would rename that continent "South Shore" since we did demerge
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Postby dissolution on Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:15 pm

and maybe dorval being able to attack st-hubert, since both have an airport, although our st-hubert airport is a lil useless :P
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Postby zorba_ca on Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:43 pm

A few suggestions (as a one-time Montrealer myself)

1. Wayyyyy too many colours going on. The best maps (read: most visually appealing) keep all the territories in a continent a uniform colour and clearly define the borders using an easily identifiable thick line. If you want to use "blocking territories" make them a solid colour (grey, black or white)

2. Since the territories are so tight together, make bridges and other non-uniform connectors almost cartoonish in nature (like a big wooden bridge) so that there is no doubt about the connection.

After you do this it will be much easier to read, appear more playable, and we can discuss bonuses and other such things.
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Postby Marvaddin on Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:45 pm

Ok, so you think some continents should have a bonus greater than the real value, and others have a bonus smaller than the real value. Will it help the wise players? I dont know. I think the map needs to be balanced.

Let me see:

Ile Bizard (teal) - 3 countries, 1 border country, 1 entry country, bonus 1 -its balanced, but pretty weak. Unless someone starts with 2 countries there, a loss of time. A good place to eliminate the last player, nothing more :lol:

Suburbia (green) - 9 countries, 3 borderers, 3 entries, 4 - why not a bonus of 5 (like North America)? Is it a continent to the fools? After conquer it, the unwise will go for Ile Bizard :lol:

West End (purple) - 8 countries, 3 border, 3 ents, 5 - oh, a continent for the wise!! Although the bonus could be 4...

Transalpinia (brown) - 6, 4 border, 7 ents, 6 - 8 attack route, not 7. But, seriously, a continent of 6 countries cant have a bonus of 6.

Ville-Marie (blue) - 4, 3 border, 5 ents, 2 + 1 for downtown so 3 if you hold the whole thing - I dislike the idea of giva player a bonus for doing nothing. Bonus for hold 1 country? Bad idea. You can change the total bonus to 3, only this. Or even 2, maybe reducing a border.

Laval (pink) - 7, 2 border, 1 ent, 3 - after the update, 3 borders, 2 entries. Easy to defend, but not that easy to conquer... It can be good in team games. # is ok.

Bout-de-L'ile (red) - 6 countries, 3 border, 5 entries, 4 - another continent to the wise. Seriously, 3 would be a good bonus.

Longueuil (orange) - 5 countries, 2 border, 2 ents, 2 - ok.

I think you should delete the reefs. The water colour is making some areas confused, too. Those islands in Downtown, for example. And I agree with zorba (name of a Brazilian male underwear). One texture to each continent would make the map more readable. You could also avoid letters both white and black for the same area.

Good, keep the hard work.
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Postby rocksolid on Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:58 am

Sorry everybody, been away from this for a long time, but here's the latest (final?) version incorporating what I felt were the best of your many helpful suggestions. Bonuses have been adjusted, differences in colour have been reduced (but not eliminated - I like the slight intra-continent colour variations that you see in the board game), bridges added, texture added. Longueuil has become South Shore, but Varennes has not been added (sorry) and I decided not to go for the airport idea with St-Hubert.

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Postby quinnster9 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:05 am

looks great.. cant wait to play it...Q9
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Postby Marvaddin on Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:48 am

Again, I cant understand Suburbia with 4 bonus armies. Nor a bonus for have one country. Its unfair, we discussed it in the Discworld map topic. The players dislike it.

You now need change the legend. Why are South Shore white in the legend? Laval and Ila-Bizard are almost unreadable. Some colours are different, too. Bout de Lile, for example, has a much darker name than the countries are in the map.

There are no bridges between those west end countries? Your bridges are really ugly too. Very light, maybe using black ones... but I dont know...
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Postby rocksolid on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:54 pm

Marvaddin wrote:Again, I cant understand Suburbia with 4 bonus armies.


A player holding Ile Bizard and Suburbia would have 5 bonus with only 2 border countries. Unlike North America, there is no third source of attack that flows through to the rest of the map.

Marvaddin wrote: Nor a bonus for have one country. Its unfair, we discussed it in the Discworld map topic. The players dislike it.


If by "the players" you mean you, God and Kingwaffles, then you're right, but I don't think "the players" is a conclusive consensus. Jota seemed to like the idea in the Discworld topic, and I did too, though I didn't say anything - which makes the count 3 to 2. I, like Jota, think the advantage is balanced by your being a bigger target.

Marvaddin wrote:You now need change the legend. Why are South Shore white in the legend? Laval and Ila-Bizard are almost unreadable. Some colours are different, too. Bout de Lile, for example, has a much darker name than the countries are in the map.


Good points. South Shore is not white - the colour is drawn from the map - but I can saturate it more to make the association clearer. The Bout de L'Ile colour is also inappropriate now that I've toned down its colours. And Laval and Ile-Bizard are less readable because of their being coloured after being typed - I'll rectify that as well.

Marvaddin wrote:There are no bridges between those west end countries? Your bridges are really ugly too. Very light, maybe using black ones... but I dont know...


There are bridges in the West End, but they're not river-crossing bridges...and I forgot about them, which I realized after uploading the images. I'll add them in. And as for the bridges, I had trouble making something look like a bridge with only a few pixels to work with. I'll try darkening them to see if it makes them any better.
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Postby haha on Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:35 pm

prity good
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Postby Jota on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:58 pm

For the bridges, it might look nicer if it were an overhead view rather than an angle view.
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Postby Dragonfly77 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:17 pm

Go Verdun!! Yahooooo!
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Postby rocksolid on Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:23 am

Legend colours remedied and a new attempt at bridges...

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Postby rocksolid on Tue May 23, 2006 9:09 am

Bump re discussion on bonuses in new thread...
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Postby RjBeals on Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:02 am

uhh... why is this map live? In my opinion, this map doesn't even come close to being worthy.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:11 am

Made it up to live play before I was Foundry Foreman I believe.


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Postby gavin_sidhu on Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:11 am

RjBeals wrote:uhh... why is this map live? In my opinion, this map doesn't even come close to being worthy.
its better than some others like crossword and brazil, a bit worse than the fantasy maps. Maybe you should give it a clean like Mr.K/Keyogi is doing with middle east.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:39 am

gavin_sidhu wrote:
RjBeals wrote:uhh... why is this map live? In my opinion, this map doesn't even come close to being worthy.
its better than some others like crossword and brazil, a bit worse than the fantasy maps. Maybe you should give it a clean like Mr.K/Keyogi is doing with middle east.


I disagree, it blows.
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Postby gavin_sidhu on Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:44 am

reverend_kyle wrote:
gavin_sidhu wrote:
RjBeals wrote:uhh... why is this map live? In my opinion, this map doesn't even come close to being worthy.
its better than some others like crossword and brazil, a bit worse than the fantasy maps. Maybe you should give it a clean like Mr.K/Keyogi is doing with middle east.


I disagree, it blows.
im not saying it doesnt blow, im saying it just doesnt blow as hard as some of the other maps.
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Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:45 am

It's not *that* bad...however it's interesting to note that back in those days a map was quenched after only 2 and a half pages and some maps are now 50+ pages and haven't been quenched yet! There are definitely maps that are worse than this both in terms of visual appeal and playability.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:49 am

gavin_sidhu wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:
gavin_sidhu wrote:
RjBeals wrote:uhh... why is this map live? In my opinion, this map doesn't even come close to being worthy.
its better than some others like crossword and brazil, a bit worse than the fantasy maps. Maybe you should give it a clean like Mr.K/Keyogi is doing with middle east.


I disagree, it blows.
im not saying it doesnt blow, im saying it just doesnt blow as hard as some of the other maps.



but brazil kicks ass... speaking of which I havent played that map in forever.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:42 pm

Ruben Cassar wrote:It's not *that* bad...however it's interesting to note that back in those days a map was quenched after only 2 and a half pages and some maps are now 50+ pages and haven't been quenched yet! There are definitely maps that are worse than this both in terms of visual appeal and playability.


They weren't Quenched...because that wasn't even around yet!


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