AOS: Orient Express 1883 [quench'd]

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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v1] p1

Postby ender516 on Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:13 pm

natty_dread wrote:Hm. I'll give it some thought.

Another possibility would be to name the Paris station Gare d'Est according to the name of the train station... Then it perhaps wouldn't seem so disturbing.. But Paris is more recognizable...

No, keep the name Paris. It would be odd to have one station not named for its city.
Think hard on moving those labels, because as it is, the word "Burgundy" is closer to the Paris circle than it is to its own, and the word "Paris" is only slightly closer to its circle than it is to the other, and is about as close to the Burgundy circle as the word "Burgundy" is to the Paris circle. Sorry if that is confusing, but that is the point.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v1] p1

Postby natty dread on Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:19 pm

ender516 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Hm. I'll give it some thought.

Another possibility would be to name the Paris station Gare d'Est according to the name of the train station... Then it perhaps wouldn't seem so disturbing.. But Paris is more recognizable...

No, keep the name Paris. It would be odd to have one station not named for its city.
Think hard on moving those labels, because as it is, the word "Burgundy" is closer to the Paris circle than it is to its own, and the word "Paris" is only slightly closer to its circle than it is to the other, and is about as close to the Burgundy circle as the word "Burgundy" is to the Paris circle. Sorry if that is confusing, but that is the point.


Yeah I know what you mean. I'll have to figure out something with the territory names...
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p2

Postby natty dread on Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:17 pm

OK, for version 2 I changed Lower Saxony to Bremen and fixed the Burgundy/Paris issue.


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Also a version with an alternative title text.

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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby ender516 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:41 pm

Well, the positions of the Paris and Burgundy labels are much better, but I think you might still consider changing that Burgundy name.

As far as the title goes, I prefer the original.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:59 pm

I guess I might change it to Île-de-France. It seems the best option to me.



PS. I'll be working on this map for now, but when nordic & lunar go to workshop, I'll probably be putting this on hold (vacation) until I have a free spot for this map, so that this won't take all my attention away from my older maps.

Have no fear though, I do have every intention on seeing this map finished & quenched ;)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:00 am

OK. Since Nordic countries is in GP workshop now, and we're trying to get Lunar war through as well, I would now like this map to be put on temporary vacation. I won't be working on this map again until Nordic is in Final Forge, but I'm not abandoning this... I quite like this project if I say so myself.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:33 am

natty_dread wrote:OK. Since Nordic countries is in GP workshop now, and we're trying to get Lunar war through as well, I would now like this map to be put on temporary vacation. I won't be working on this map again until Nordic is in Final Forge, but I'm not abandoning this... I quite like this project if I say so myself.


Yeah, I think this map is pretty cool as well, looking forward to its continued progress. It'll be cool when Nordic Countries is through the map gauntlet cause you'll be able to do some cool bicentennial anniversary for the Orient express in 2083.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:09 pm

It'll be cool when Nordic Countries is through the map gauntlet cause you'll be able to do some cool bicentennial anniversary for the Orient express in 2083.


Are you implying it will take 73 years to quench a map? :lol:
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby ender516 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:31 pm

natty_dread wrote:
It'll be cool when Nordic Countries is through the map gauntlet cause you'll be able to do some cool bicentennial anniversary for the Orient express in 2083.


Are you implying it will take 73 years to quench a map? :lol:

Hey, it should not take that long. Be ready for the sesquicentennial in 2033. ;) (I have loved that word ever since the University of Toronto celebrated its 150th anniversary and we crazy Engineering students referred to it as the Sasquatch-centennial.)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:16 pm

ender516 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
It'll be cool when Nordic Countries is through the map gauntlet cause you'll be able to do some cool bicentennial anniversary for the Orient express in 2083.


Are you implying it will take 73 years to quench a map? :lol:

Hey, it should not take that long. Be ready for the sesquicentennial in 2033. ;) (I have loved that word ever since the University of Toronto celebrated its 150th anniversary and we crazy Engineering students referred to it as the Sasquatch-centennial.)


Sesqui is a fun word, yes. Another number-related word I like is oligo. It basically means that there's more than one of something, but the exact amount is not known. Eg. oligomers are polymers with unknown or alternating amount of repeating molecules...

So I'm fully prepared to spend oligo years to finish this map... ;)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby slomo on Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:16 pm

You combined many territories, which makes it hard to find the right names.

I'd recommend changing Bremen into Hannover (there was a kingdom called Hannover, it was conquered by Prussia in the 19th century)
There is a Problem with Saxony, because it combines Prussian territories and territories that weren't Prussion (like Saxony!).

I would prefer Brandenburg instead of Mecklenburg, because Brandenburg is more important (and I think Mecklenburg was independent from Prussia, so Berlin cannot be a city in Meckl.)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:00 pm

Looking at this again I think Benelux ought to be named the Low countries... the term Benelux is a post-WWII term.

You ever thought of giving this map an industrial revolution graphical feel? I don't think the sandy texture really conveys trains and steam power, ect.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:42 am

slomo wrote:You combined many territories, which makes it hard to find the right names.

I'd recommend changing Bremen into Hannover (there was a kingdom called Hannover, it was conquered by Prussia in the 19th century)
There is a Problem with Saxony, because it combines Prussian territories and territories that weren't Prussion (like Saxony!).

I would prefer Brandenburg instead of Mecklenburg, because Brandenburg is more important (and I think Mecklenburg was independent from Prussia, so Berlin cannot be a city in Meckl.)


That's good advice for the naming. AFAIK, Prussia was not an independent country at 1883, it was part of the German empire... Also territories had to be combined, due to the scale of the map. There's only so much you can fit into 840x800 pixels.

So I'm going to rename Bremen -> Hannover, Mecklenburg -> Brandenburg.

Industrial Helix wrote:Looking at this again I think Benelux ought to be named the Low countries... the term Benelux is a post-WWII term.

You ever thought of giving this map an industrial revolution graphical feel? I don't think the sandy texture really conveys trains and steam power, ect.


Benelux -> Low countries. Sounds good.

As for the visual style, my inspiration was a map drawn in 1883. Which was also the map I traced... Anyway, when I start working on the map again there will be plenty of time to think about graphical solutions. Currently the Foundry's 2 map limitation forces this map to sit in the melting pot until I can get Nordic countries finished.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:08 am

I have some ideas for gameplay. I'm going to partly follow suggestions from cairns & IH, which means:

- country bonuses will be scrapped. Instead a territory bonus in style of conquest maps will be implemented: +1 for every 3 territories of a country. Exception will be made with countries with less than 3 territories, which each give +1 when held.

- passengers will be added as resources. Each country will have 1-2 territories with passengers. The passenger bonus will be awarded when you hold a passenger territory and a train station of the same country. Also, each adjacent train station grows the bonus (the further you transport the passengers, the more you get). The territories that passengers will be on, haven't deicided that yet, but I'm thinking places with large cities...

- possible idea: tourist attractions. Transport passengers into these for extra bonus?

- orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.

Well, what do you think? This should help to make the gameplay more unique, and make the railway more relevant to the map.

I'm also considering starting positions... in fact they may be necessary with the bonus system.

Anyway, the development of this map shall continue as soon as Nordic countries is in the final forge.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:10 pm

natty_dread wrote: orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.


I'd say use the side stations to receive the passenger bonus. I think that would be appropriate for this map.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:15 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
natty_dread wrote: orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.


I'd say use the side stations to receive the passenger bonus. I think that would be appropriate for this map.


How do you mean exactly?
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:20 pm

natty_dread wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
natty_dread wrote: orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.


I'd say use the side stations to receive the passenger bonus. I think that would be appropriate for this map.


How do you mean exactly?

Well like you mentioned, hold them for passengers, and get extra passengers as a result.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:00 pm

Yes... but do you mean, that the orient express stations couldn't be used for this, then? I'd like the o.e. railway to be powerful enough to be the focus of the map.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:43 pm

The time for resuming development of this map is coming closer... My Nordic map is almost in beta, so I'll have time to work on this, also the 2 map restriction will soon not apply.

I have been thinking long & hard about the gameplay of this map, and how to make it more in sync with the theme.

I would like to keep the country bonuses, since that way the map could start with a random drop.

However, that means I need to make more room for additional rules, if I want to introduce something like "passenger" territories, or other such fancy stuff.

Another option would be to make the gameplay a bit like Route 66. Like, adding big cities for bonuses.

I'm open for all suggestions about the gameplay. Only, I want to keep the current geography or as close as possible, and the current rail lines.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:14 pm

Well, speaking from experience of having 13 Colonies in Beta and waiting to pursue South Africa, I'd say that you ought to be aware that Beta is a much more lengthy process than anticipated. But once Nordic is through, this map should be well on its way.

From a gameplay perspective, and I mean this as just another foundry poster and my comments aren't indicative of whether or not the map will progress nor are they indicative of any of the other moderators opinions.

Anyway, I think you've got a potential map to blend the successes of the rail maps with the feeling and dynamic of pre-wwi Europe (like in terms of empires, ect.). The biggest concern I have is that the map becomes a section of Europe 1914 with a rail line. Somehow you've got to emphasize the rail more than the individual country bonuses.

Maybe, include various national lines?

Or you could try making a stipulation that a country bonus is only good if you have the rails stations in it?

I'm not sure what you'd like to do, but you're right... it's probably about time to start thinking about where this map is headed and how its going to develop.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:27 pm

Yes... good ideas there IH. I already have some country rail lines... see the latest version on pg1, there's Strasbourg-Milan, Vienna-Berlin and Budapest-Belgrade.

I could extend the Milan line to Calabria... Extend Berlin to Netherlands... Add a line from Paris to Southern France.

Also the idea of requiring the rail stations to gain the country bonus is a good one... but perhaps a bit severe... how about if holding the rail stations of a country increase the country bonus?

eg.
France +5
France w/ stations +7

Or something like that?

This is starting to get interesting...

To be honest, the more I think about "passengers" as resources, the more I feel it just doesn't work... I mean, there was no travel agencies as such at the time. So why would the players be competing for transporting passengers? Although this also poses the question, why do the players want the OE line...

Perhaps each player is a train mogul, and starts at a side station. If I can manage to add 8 side stations sufficiently distant to each other...

Will have to think on this.

and ps. yes, I do intend to wait until Nordic is quenched before submitting the desing brief for this.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:46 pm

Well, obviously passengers were taking the trains because there were so many of them. They wouldn't exist without people buying tickets. Sure, there weren't any travel agencies at the time, but that doesn't mean people werent taking trips. It might be worth a little research on that.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:03 pm

Yes, but then again... all of the territories have "passengers", in a way.

So one could think of the countries as the "passenger resources", so when you hold a whole country you have a monopoly to the passenger resources of that country, thus you get a bonus. When you hold a country and all train stations in it, you have a stronger monopoly: passengers and transportation. Thus you get a bigger bonus. It'd make sense to me.

So I'm thinking I'm going to abandon "passenger territories", instead add more train lines so that each country has at least 1 station.

These stations would then increase the country bonus. I'd cut the current country boni in half approximately, and then by holding a country & all stations in it, you'd get the full bonus.

Each OE station would additionally get a +1 autodeploy. Or maybe +2.

Then there's of course the objective of holding all OE stations.

Hmm, this could already have something... I think it could work...

edit: also, holding only the train stations of a country could also give a bonus... So it'd be small bonus for either the country or the rail stations, and a big bonus for both.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:45 pm

natty_dread wrote:Yes, but then again... all of the territories have "passengers", in a way.

So one could think of the countries as the "passenger resources", so when you hold a whole country you have a monopoly to the passenger resources of that country, thus you get a bonus. When you hold a country and all train stations in it, you have a stronger monopoly: passengers and transportation. Thus you get a bigger bonus. It'd make sense to me.


This is a strong idea, I think. Granted, it would just be words in the instructions but portraying the struggle on the map as a struggle of monopoly and pre-1914 capitalism I think that you could have an even stronger theme and concept.

If this were the route you chose to pursue, perhaps players could have at their hands something like rail strikes, socialists and anarchists.

I think it would definitely go a long way to capturing the essence of the times.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:58 pm

Yes... I think this is starting to shape up.

So as a note for myself I'm going to list all changes here so I can just read the list when I resume work on the map:

Name changes:
Bremen -> Hannover
Mecklenburg -> Brandenburg
Benelux -> Low Countries

Additional stations:
Amsterdam (in Netherlands, connects to Berlin)
Reggio di Calabria (in Calabria, connects to Milan)
Bordeaux (in Aquitane, connects to Paris)

possibly also Thessalonica in greece, connecting to Constantinople (and maybe Belgrade... I have to check if there's a rail line between Belgrade and Thessalonica).
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