AOS: Orient Express 1883 [quench'd]

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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:15 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
natty_dread wrote: orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.


I'd say use the side stations to receive the passenger bonus. I think that would be appropriate for this map.


How do you mean exactly?
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:20 pm

natty_dread wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
natty_dread wrote: orient express stations will be having an autodeploy, +1 each. Side stations will have no bonus, but can be used for the passenger bonus.


I'd say use the side stations to receive the passenger bonus. I think that would be appropriate for this map.


How do you mean exactly?

Well like you mentioned, hold them for passengers, and get extra passengers as a result.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:00 pm

Yes... but do you mean, that the orient express stations couldn't be used for this, then? I'd like the o.e. railway to be powerful enough to be the focus of the map.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:43 pm

The time for resuming development of this map is coming closer... My Nordic map is almost in beta, so I'll have time to work on this, also the 2 map restriction will soon not apply.

I have been thinking long & hard about the gameplay of this map, and how to make it more in sync with the theme.

I would like to keep the country bonuses, since that way the map could start with a random drop.

However, that means I need to make more room for additional rules, if I want to introduce something like "passenger" territories, or other such fancy stuff.

Another option would be to make the gameplay a bit like Route 66. Like, adding big cities for bonuses.

I'm open for all suggestions about the gameplay. Only, I want to keep the current geography or as close as possible, and the current rail lines.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:14 pm

Well, speaking from experience of having 13 Colonies in Beta and waiting to pursue South Africa, I'd say that you ought to be aware that Beta is a much more lengthy process than anticipated. But once Nordic is through, this map should be well on its way.

From a gameplay perspective, and I mean this as just another foundry poster and my comments aren't indicative of whether or not the map will progress nor are they indicative of any of the other moderators opinions.

Anyway, I think you've got a potential map to blend the successes of the rail maps with the feeling and dynamic of pre-wwi Europe (like in terms of empires, ect.). The biggest concern I have is that the map becomes a section of Europe 1914 with a rail line. Somehow you've got to emphasize the rail more than the individual country bonuses.

Maybe, include various national lines?

Or you could try making a stipulation that a country bonus is only good if you have the rails stations in it?

I'm not sure what you'd like to do, but you're right... it's probably about time to start thinking about where this map is headed and how its going to develop.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:27 pm

Yes... good ideas there IH. I already have some country rail lines... see the latest version on pg1, there's Strasbourg-Milan, Vienna-Berlin and Budapest-Belgrade.

I could extend the Milan line to Calabria... Extend Berlin to Netherlands... Add a line from Paris to Southern France.

Also the idea of requiring the rail stations to gain the country bonus is a good one... but perhaps a bit severe... how about if holding the rail stations of a country increase the country bonus?

eg.
France +5
France w/ stations +7

Or something like that?

This is starting to get interesting...

To be honest, the more I think about "passengers" as resources, the more I feel it just doesn't work... I mean, there was no travel agencies as such at the time. So why would the players be competing for transporting passengers? Although this also poses the question, why do the players want the OE line...

Perhaps each player is a train mogul, and starts at a side station. If I can manage to add 8 side stations sufficiently distant to each other...

Will have to think on this.

and ps. yes, I do intend to wait until Nordic is quenched before submitting the desing brief for this.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:46 pm

Well, obviously passengers were taking the trains because there were so many of them. They wouldn't exist without people buying tickets. Sure, there weren't any travel agencies at the time, but that doesn't mean people werent taking trips. It might be worth a little research on that.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:03 pm

Yes, but then again... all of the territories have "passengers", in a way.

So one could think of the countries as the "passenger resources", so when you hold a whole country you have a monopoly to the passenger resources of that country, thus you get a bonus. When you hold a country and all train stations in it, you have a stronger monopoly: passengers and transportation. Thus you get a bigger bonus. It'd make sense to me.

So I'm thinking I'm going to abandon "passenger territories", instead add more train lines so that each country has at least 1 station.

These stations would then increase the country bonus. I'd cut the current country boni in half approximately, and then by holding a country & all stations in it, you'd get the full bonus.

Each OE station would additionally get a +1 autodeploy. Or maybe +2.

Then there's of course the objective of holding all OE stations.

Hmm, this could already have something... I think it could work...

edit: also, holding only the train stations of a country could also give a bonus... So it'd be small bonus for either the country or the rail stations, and a big bonus for both.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:45 pm

natty_dread wrote:Yes, but then again... all of the territories have "passengers", in a way.

So one could think of the countries as the "passenger resources", so when you hold a whole country you have a monopoly to the passenger resources of that country, thus you get a bonus. When you hold a country and all train stations in it, you have a stronger monopoly: passengers and transportation. Thus you get a bigger bonus. It'd make sense to me.


This is a strong idea, I think. Granted, it would just be words in the instructions but portraying the struggle on the map as a struggle of monopoly and pre-1914 capitalism I think that you could have an even stronger theme and concept.

If this were the route you chose to pursue, perhaps players could have at their hands something like rail strikes, socialists and anarchists.

I think it would definitely go a long way to capturing the essence of the times.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:58 pm

Yes... I think this is starting to shape up.

So as a note for myself I'm going to list all changes here so I can just read the list when I resume work on the map:

Name changes:
Bremen -> Hannover
Mecklenburg -> Brandenburg
Benelux -> Low Countries

Additional stations:
Amsterdam (in Netherlands, connects to Berlin)
Reggio di Calabria (in Calabria, connects to Milan)
Bordeaux (in Aquitane, connects to Paris)

possibly also Thessalonica in greece, connecting to Constantinople (and maybe Belgrade... I have to check if there's a rail line between Belgrade and Thessalonica).
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:18 am

One gripe before you post out the next version: I hate both titles. They look like something I'd see on an advertisement for Oxyclean or ShamWOW. Perhaps something a little more railroad-y?
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:00 pm

TaCktiX wrote:One gripe before you post out the next version: I hate both titles. They look like something I'd see on an advertisement for Oxyclean or ShamWOW. Perhaps something a little more railroad-y?


Really? I used this as my inspiration:

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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby Coleman on Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:12 pm

Greatest rail map ever? I think so.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:32 pm

Oh Coleman, you flatter me so... ;) Let's just hope Nordic goes to quench soon so I can get working on this.

Here's my thoughts on the bonus structure...

France, will have 2 stations (Paris & Bourdeaux) land bonus: +3, with stations +5
Italy, will have 2 stations (Milan & Reggio di Calabria) land bonus: +2, with stations +4
Low Countries (Benelux) will have 1 station (Amsterdam) land bonus: +2, with station +3
Germany, has 3 stations (Berlin, Strasbourg, Münich) land bonus: +5, with stations +8
Austro-Hungary, has 3 stations (Vienna, Budapest; Belgrade shared with Servia&MN) land bonus: +7 with stations +10
Switzerland, no stations, land bonus +1
Servia & M.N, has 1 station (Belgrade, shared with Austro-Hungary) land bonus: +1, with belgrade: +2
Romania, has 1 station (Bucharest) land bonus: +1, with bucharest: +2
Ottoman, will have 3 stations (Varna, Constantinople, Thessalonica) land bonus: +3, with stations: +6

I'm yet unsure if I should connect Thessalonica with Belgrade.. Have to do more research. It would create a nice loop to the rail, making the gameplay less linear.

Also, how about a bonus for the termini (Paris & Constantinople)? I'm thinking something like hold both for +2.

Also I'll definitely give the OE stations a +2 autodeploy.

I may have to extend the canvas and put the legend to the lower edge, though... to make sure I can fit in all additional rules & bonuses.


edit: I took a peek at the layered file of this map... It looks like I'll have to redraw the whole thing... almost, anyway... there's just lots of stuff that's made, well... wrong. Anyway, this is still at draft stage, and I've gathered lots of experience on graphics work since I last worked on this map... I think I'll be able to make something pretty nice out of this once I start working on it again.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v2] p1,2

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:03 pm

Was bored... Couldn't keep myself from working on this... made this:

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Notice I got rid of army circles. Is better without, I think.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby ender516 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:42 pm

Oh, I like this look. Very clear. Does it pass colourblind tests? (Hmm, you have darker borders around the "Land Monopolies", so maybe it doesn't matter so much.)

If you are using English spellings from that era, perhaps "Hanover" with one "n" would be more correct.

(And it's now 2010. ;) )
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:19 pm

I'll keep that in mind... not much concentrating on the graphics yet. Probably won't be updating this again until Nordic is quenched... or who knows, I might get bored again ;)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby The Bison King on Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:44 pm

I feel like France and Italy should be able to attack each other, and that maybe France should be worth a little more. The idea seems pretty solid, and the map looks great.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:04 pm

I feel like France and Italy should be able to attack each other


They can.

Also the land bonuses are low on purpose, it focuses the gameplay more on the railways.

France gets +3 if you only hold the land area, but when you hold both train stations on it you get +5 and another +2 autodeployed on paris station... Which brings the total bonus to 7 troops.

Anyway, there will be time enough to work on the bonuses in the gameplay shop.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:03 pm

another damn europe map, but I kinda like it.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:48 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:another damn europe map, but I kinda like it.


Coming from the guy who hates Europe maps with a passion, that means a lot :D

Anyway, I know CC has tons of Europe maps... so what justifies the making of yet another one? Well, for one thing, this isn't just an Europe map... this is also a rail map. The Orient Express is a huge milestone in railway history, and has become almost legendary... it certainly is a fitting subject for a CC map, in my opinion.

I think the map is headed in the right direction, it already has lots of features that set it apart from both the rail maps and all the europe maps... and so I hope the final product will win over even those who dread the thought of yet another Europe map in CC. ;)

PS. My map doesn't even show whole europe, just a portion of western europe... that should count for something, right? :mrgreen:
Last edited by natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:40 pm

natty_dread wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:another damn europe map, but I kinda like it.


Coming from the guy who hates Europe maps with a passion, that means a lot :D

Anyway, I know CC has tons of Europe maps... so what justifies the making of yet another one? Well, for one thing, this isn't just an Europe map... this is also a rail map. The Orient Express is a huge milestone in railway history, and has become almost legendary... it certainly is a fitting subject for a CC map, in my opinion.

I think the map is headed in the right direction, it already has lots of features that set it apart from both the rail maps and all the europe maps... and so I hope the final project will win over even those who dread the thought of yet another Europe map in CC. ;)

PS. My map doesn't even show whole europe, just a portion of western europe... that should count for something, right? :mrgreen:



Exactly... the rail thing mixed with the territorys is kinda cool. I do admit; I like this.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:55 pm

Thanks Nobunaga.

Btw, I have been thinking about the impassables... I've tried to add lots of impassables to the map, but is it still too open? Are there any places that impassables could be added so that they would benefit the gameplay?

And ender, as for your concerns about the colourblind... I share those concerns. Haven't done the test yet, but I imagine at least france & germany will cause problems... The map has so many bonus areas that it will be really hard to find enough unique colours that will fit in the "worn-out" style of the map and still be cb-friendly. So I'm considering making a minimap for the Land Monopoly legend... Not sure if it's feasible though, with all those small bonus areas like Switzerland or Servia & M.N.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:16 pm

Ok, I've been working on this a bit still... I tried to make a minimap but there's not enough room, it can't be made legible... so I was thinking I could put in low-opacity country labels on the map itself, that might work.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby ender516 on Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:19 pm

That seems to be working for Napoleonic Europe 1812, for which I am producing the XML (*cough*, plug, plug, *cough*) (Hmm, I should change my signature.)
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