AOS: Orient Express 1883 [quench'd]

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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby ender516 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:42 pm

Oh, I like this look. Very clear. Does it pass colourblind tests? (Hmm, you have darker borders around the "Land Monopolies", so maybe it doesn't matter so much.)

If you are using English spellings from that era, perhaps "Hanover" with one "n" would be more correct.

(And it's now 2010. ;) )
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:19 pm

I'll keep that in mind... not much concentrating on the graphics yet. Probably won't be updating this again until Nordic is quenched... or who knows, I might get bored again ;)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby The Bison King on Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:44 pm

I feel like France and Italy should be able to attack each other, and that maybe France should be worth a little more. The idea seems pretty solid, and the map looks great.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:04 pm

I feel like France and Italy should be able to attack each other


They can.

Also the land bonuses are low on purpose, it focuses the gameplay more on the railways.

France gets +3 if you only hold the land area, but when you hold both train stations on it you get +5 and another +2 autodeployed on paris station... Which brings the total bonus to 7 troops.

Anyway, there will be time enough to work on the bonuses in the gameplay shop.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:03 pm

another damn europe map, but I kinda like it.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:48 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:another damn europe map, but I kinda like it.


Coming from the guy who hates Europe maps with a passion, that means a lot :D

Anyway, I know CC has tons of Europe maps... so what justifies the making of yet another one? Well, for one thing, this isn't just an Europe map... this is also a rail map. The Orient Express is a huge milestone in railway history, and has become almost legendary... it certainly is a fitting subject for a CC map, in my opinion.

I think the map is headed in the right direction, it already has lots of features that set it apart from both the rail maps and all the europe maps... and so I hope the final product will win over even those who dread the thought of yet another Europe map in CC. ;)

PS. My map doesn't even show whole europe, just a portion of western europe... that should count for something, right? :mrgreen:
Last edited by natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:40 pm

natty_dread wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:another damn europe map, but I kinda like it.


Coming from the guy who hates Europe maps with a passion, that means a lot :D

Anyway, I know CC has tons of Europe maps... so what justifies the making of yet another one? Well, for one thing, this isn't just an Europe map... this is also a rail map. The Orient Express is a huge milestone in railway history, and has become almost legendary... it certainly is a fitting subject for a CC map, in my opinion.

I think the map is headed in the right direction, it already has lots of features that set it apart from both the rail maps and all the europe maps... and so I hope the final project will win over even those who dread the thought of yet another Europe map in CC. ;)

PS. My map doesn't even show whole europe, just a portion of western europe... that should count for something, right? :mrgreen:



Exactly... the rail thing mixed with the territorys is kinda cool. I do admit; I like this.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:55 pm

Thanks Nobunaga.

Btw, I have been thinking about the impassables... I've tried to add lots of impassables to the map, but is it still too open? Are there any places that impassables could be added so that they would benefit the gameplay?

And ender, as for your concerns about the colourblind... I share those concerns. Haven't done the test yet, but I imagine at least france & germany will cause problems... The map has so many bonus areas that it will be really hard to find enough unique colours that will fit in the "worn-out" style of the map and still be cb-friendly. So I'm considering making a minimap for the Land Monopoly legend... Not sure if it's feasible though, with all those small bonus areas like Switzerland or Servia & M.N.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:16 pm

Ok, I've been working on this a bit still... I tried to make a minimap but there's not enough room, it can't be made legible... so I was thinking I could put in low-opacity country labels on the map itself, that might work.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby ender516 on Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:19 pm

That seems to be working for Napoleonic Europe 1812, for which I am producing the XML (*cough*, plug, plug, *cough*) (Hmm, I should change my signature.)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:05 pm

Hmm, yes. Here's how it turned out...

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Btw, would Athens be a better choice, instead of Thessalonica?
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Re: Idea: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Istanbul

Postby tonbomorphew on Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:51 pm

Novelties weren't invented until 1884!
actually 1882
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:33 pm

eh...What?
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby ender516 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:22 am

The low-opacity labels work fairly well, (with "Low" being the least legible), but I would be interested in seeing them in a light grey or beige, so that they had about as much contrast as the words "Spain" and "Russia" do.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:26 am

Yes, I will have to tweak the text... it's a precarious balance, to make it legible but not too strong and cluttering...

One thing though... how do you feel about the mountains, I personally think they look pretty cool but not sure if they fit the style of the map?

Also: should the coloured outlines of the country bonuses follow the coastlines of the rivers? (as they do now)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby ender516 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:08 am

natty_dread wrote:Yes, I will have to tweak the text... it's a precarious balance, to make it legible but not too strong and cluttering...

One thing though... how do you feel about the mountains, I personally think they look pretty cool but not sure if they fit the style of the map?

Well they certainly look impassable, but you are right to doubt that they match the style. They would look fine on an aerial photo map, but here you might want to look for whatever was used for terrain markings on topological or geographical maps of the period. Where you would find that is beyond me, but Google is your friend.
natty_dread wrote:Also: should the coloured outlines of the country bonuses follow the coastlines of the rivers? (as they do now)

Perhaps not. As they are, they look like international waterways, which they would not be. I doubt a map of the period would have coloured them that way. Maybe the borders of Germany and Austro-Hungary should ford the rivers, as it were.

While looking at these borders, I see that Belgrade straddles a border, which might make unclear the monopoly to which it belongs. Perhaps stations could have a colour-coordinated ring which indicates just what goes where.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople [v3] p1,3

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:24 am

While looking at these borders, I see that Belgrade straddles a border, which might make unclear the monopoly to which it belongs. Perhaps stations could have a colour-coordinated ring which indicates just what goes where.


Belgrade belongs to both of them. However the Servia & M.N. train monopoly will only be paid if you also hold the land area... Thus, if you hold all the other stations in Austro-hungary with Belgrade, you get the Austro-Hungary train monopoly bonus. If you hold Servia & M.N land areas in addition to Belgrade, you get the Servia&M.N train monopoly (in addition to Servia&MN land monopoly). If you hold both you get both... simple, eh? ;)

I'm not sure about colour outlines though. I don't think they'd fit the style too well... I thought I'd just add a line of text explaining "Belgrade belongs to both areas" or something to that effect, since it's the only station that requires this...

As for the rest of your suggestions, they do make sense, but I think I'll leave the mountains be for now and take them up again in the graphics workshop. That way I get some time to think about a good mountain style.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople <v3> p1,3 [DBS]

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:13 am

Opinions: should the non-playable areas have texture?
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople <v3> p1,3 [DBS]

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:26 am

Ok, bear with me here.

We've got 7 Quenched Europe maps and with Napoleonic Europe on its way, that will be 8... Do we honestly need another Europe map?

Now I like this map and I think what you are trying to do, blending the success of the Rail maps with a traditional territory map, is really quite interesting and cool. But I'm starting to develop the opinion that maybe it needs something to separate it from the number of Europe maps we have already, especially considering Europe 1914 has the same general territorial map as this.

So, I've had a few ideas that I think might be worthy of exploration on your part to avoid making 'just another Europe map' and hopefully drive this concept you've got going to a new level.

1) Drop Europe all together and focus on a new rail connection. The Berlin-Baghdad or Transiberian Railroad (we have very little by way of Russian maps and I think a Transiberian RR would be very well received. The Transiberian RR could utilize similar graphics as well as make use of your graphical style).
2) Transcontinental Railroad, USA... though it'd be just another USA/North American map, you could go similar graphics style though.
3) Modern rail map of China? It'd make good use of the synthesis idea of yours but your graphics would radically change.

I dunno, I think you should toy with it and could come up with something pretty innovative.

Anyway, I think you're going to have a very hard time pushing through another Europe map given the resistance the foreman has put up lately in Napoleonic Europe. I think reconsidering geographic area might be a wise thing to do at this point before you become too invested in this work.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Constantinople <v3> p1,3 [DBS]

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:27 pm

I want to do a map of the orient express, and if it has enough support and popularity it will hopefully be made.

CC already has lots of maps, and people want to make more. As long as there are people who also want to play those maps, I say there's nothing wrong with it. At some point, while the number of maps climbs ever higher, there comes a time when it's hard to do something really original. You know the saying: don't try to be original, anything you can possibly think of - someone has already thought... and then it's just a matter of doing your own original perspective on a subject that has been previously covered.

This map is nothing like the existing europe maps. The territories are different, gameplay is different, even guys who don't want any more europe maps (aon) like this map. I don't see any reason to stop development of this map as long as I have sufficient support for it (which so far seems to be the case).

What happened, IH? You used to like this map. I get the feeling you are only saying this because of pressure from the administration. If that is the case, I wish the respective parties would come straight out and tell me this map will not be approved no matter what, and I can stop wasting my time here.

edit: I have put up a poll to gauge the potential support for this map. Please give your votes, so we will see if CC has room for one more "Europe map". After all, it's the players maps are made for, not the admin or foundry foremen.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Const. *POLL!!! VOTE PLEASE*

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:52 pm

Well, I think you need to be careful on how you regard CC because it is not your typical art forum or site. Because the admin has been pretty cool with maps lately there's been a policy of "if you want to make it we'll host it and let people play it." To the best of my knowledge, that policy is under no threat at all, but I'm starting to wonder if it might be in the future if continued maps of the same places keep getting made.

No one put me up to this statement or anything, but I'm just acting in response to a growing weariness of the same old map. Plus I'd personally like to see more Russian maps as I find Soviet Union confusing as hell and Transiberian RR would be a cool way of depicting the old Russian Empire. You're doing something I think will be different in terms of gameplay and I'm starting to ask myself whether or not that should be used on yet another map of Europe, why not pioneer in some of the geographical areas unexplored on CC?

In general, I personally do like this map but I think you're going to have to garner a lot of support to make the 8th map of Europe. I expect if this map goes through, a number of foundry regulars are going to resist it. My aim in posting was to prevent such a clash in the future before you become too invested with the map. I don't expect the policy of "if you make it we'll host it" to change anytime in the near future, or at least I haven't been given any indication of such a change. But I think we as mapmakers need to be cautious of pushing it too far.

And I like your addition of the poll. I think every mapmaker ought to have a general support gauge before starting a map as the results can be both humbling and enlightening.
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Const. *POLL!!! VOTE PLEASE*

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:13 pm

To the best of my knowledge, that policy is under no threat at all, but I'm starting to wonder if it might be in the future if continued maps of the same places keep getting made.


To me, it's quite simple. I make maps people want me to make. I don't push a map if there's no support at all, but if there's any people who give me positive feedback - showing to me that there's a "market" for the map - I will continue to make it.

I find Soviet Union confusing as hell


Oh? I find it simple, and I like it. Good for escalating.

You're doing something I think will be different in terms of gameplay and I'm starting to ask myself whether or not that should be used on yet another map of Europe, why not pioneer in some of the geographical areas unexplored on CC?


You know, I could make a map pack out of this: a new series of different kind of rail maps. However I want to make the orient express the first of the series (if there will be a series that is) as I feel the orient express is a "legendery" rail line, one which is well known and is often associated with exotic adventures, romance, movies... I feel it has certainly earned a place among CC rail maps.

In general, I personally do like this map but I think you're going to have to garner a lot of support to make the 8th map of Europe. I expect if this map goes through, a number of foundry regulars are going to resist it. My aim in posting was to prevent such a clash in the future before you become too invested with the map.


I don't make maps for "foundry regulars". Frankly if the players like the map then I don't give a flying fudgesicle what the foundry regulars... erm, let me rephrase this. As long as the map has support, I'm well prepared to the opposition it will likely face. However, I already converted one guy who was certain he never wanted to see any more europe maps made (see a few posts back). So I'm living in the hope that my map will eventually win even the skeptics over.

I don't expect the policy of "if you make it we'll host it" to change anytime in the near future, or at least I haven't been given any indication of such a change. But I think we as mapmakers need to be cautious of pushing it too far.


Generally I agree, but once again, the players should be the final judge of that. If the players want a map for playing then I say let them have it. If not... well, we'll burn that bridge when we cross it ;)

And I like your addition of the poll. I think every mapmaker ought to have a general support gauge before starting a map as the results can be both humbling and enlightening.


Thank you. Generally, I feel the foundry polls have limited useability, since relatively small portion of CC even reads the foundry... however in cases such as this they can be used to give a sort-of indicator of support.

My next course of action will depend on the poll results. Meanwhile... should the non-playable land have texture? ;)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Const. *POLL!!! VOTE PLEASE*

Postby carlpgoodrich on Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:56 pm

I agree with IH on most of his points. I do think this map has a new gameplay that I am looking forward to. However, I am completely sick of Europe. Since I would like to play this map due to the gameplay, I would much prefer it be of Russia (which is certainly underrepresented in CC). Sill, if you make it I will play it :P
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Const. *POLL!!! VOTE PLEASE*

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:05 pm

Sill, if you make it I will play it :P


Then you should vote yes ;)
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Re: Orient Express 1883: Paris - Const. *POLL!!! VOTE PLEASE*

Postby army of nobunaga on Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:11 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Well, I think you need to be careful on how you regard CC because it is not your typical art forum or site. Because the admin has been pretty cool with maps lately there's been a policy of "if you want to make it we'll host it and let people play it." To the best of my knowledge, that policy is under no threat at all, but I'm starting to wonder if it might be in the future if continued maps of the same places keep getting made.

No one put me up to this statement or anything, but I'm just acting in response to a growing weariness of the same old map. Plus I'd personally like to see more Russian maps as I find Soviet Union confusing as hell and Transiberian RR would be a cool way of depicting the old Russian Empire. You're doing something I think will be different in terms of gameplay and I'm starting to ask myself whether or not that should be used on yet another map of Europe, why not pioneer in some of the geographical areas unexplored on CC?

In general, I personally do like this map but I think you're going to have to garner a lot of support to make the 8th map of Europe. I expect if this map goes through, a number of foundry regulars are going to resist it. My aim in posting was to prevent such a clash in the future before you become too invested with the map. I don't expect the policy of "if you make it we'll host it" to change anytime in the near future, or at least I haven't been given any indication of such a change. But I think we as mapmakers need to be cautious of pushing it too far.

And I like your addition of the poll. I think every mapmaker ought to have a general support gauge before starting a map as the results can be both humbling and enlightening.



I agree with everything you just said, and I thought I was the only one that said these things... But the problem is, this map has more of a right to be map in my mind than many of the europe maps mad and those about to be made.

I voted yes and Im pretty savagely an anti-european map guy. The snapshot of Europe (as opposed to all of it) and the merging of the rails are pretty endearing to me.
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