AOS: Orient Express 1883 [quench'd]

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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby ender516 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:41 pm

I don't think your argument will hold up, aon. The fact that monopolies exist in the real business world does not give me the right to create a real estate trading game and market it under the name "Monopoly".
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby honsberger on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:34 am

Hey, currently playing this map and enjoying it thoroughly. I like that it does have some defensible points so that multiple players can get territories and duke it out over a longer period with more troops. Also the objective is properly difficult but doable. Well done
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby army of nobunaga on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:03 pm

ender516 wrote:I don't think your argument will hold up, aon. The fact that monopolies exist in the real business world does not give me the right to create a real estate trading game and market it under the name "Monopoly".


A monopoly is a made up term in harvard business school. It is also probably THE most trademarked game in the history of games unless there is some sort of barbie game. Probably a different set of circumstances... But hell im not a lawyer.

gl with it.

edit1
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2363/orient-express
edit2
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/847/feudal
edit 3
http://www.giantbomb.com/dustbowl/95-56/

edit 4
I could show you 15 more examples why your argument that natty should change the name doesnt hold water, at least to me.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby natty dread on Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:55 pm

Well, I got word from the admin that no name changes are necessary.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:01 pm

admin still needs to add "AoS:" to the beginning of the map's name...
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby natty dread on Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:04 pm

I don't think it will happen.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby porkenbeans on Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:32 pm

I really like the graphics on this map. How is it playing ? I have not not had a chance to play it yet.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby army of nobunaga on Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:36 pm

it plays like a champ.. bottom right is pretty easy to chokepoint a bonus so far ... but I do not dislike that . Just adds a dimension.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby natty dread on Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:03 am

Ok, then how's about that reduction of the objective...

I've been thinking either:

- hold both termini + 4 orient express stations

or
- hold both termini + 5 orient express stations

So the total objective would either be 6 or 7 territories. It's currently 8. Which would be the optimal solution?
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:48 pm

natty_dread wrote:Ok, then how's about that reduction of the objective...

I've been thinking either:

- hold both termini + 4 orient express stations

or
- hold both termini + 5 orient express stations

So the total objective would either be 6 or 7 territories. It's currently 8. Which would be the optimal solution?

Preferably the second option.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:00 am

I like your first option. It makes it possible to do other than in a 1vs1 .

I think it would be harder than you may think still but I definitly like the first option.

Playing this map in quads atm, I need to try some 1vs1
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby The Bison King on Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:44 pm

I prefer the second option (both termini +5 OE stations) or nothing at all and leaving it how it is.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby natty dread on Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:03 am

Ok here's what: let's try the 2nd option first, if the objective is still too hard to hold then we'll go with the 1st one.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby Robis on Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:28 pm

Well. I dunno if somebody else has already make this point, i've not read all 40 pages and i won't. I want just to let u know that Calabria is not that part of italy, but only the very bottom of it, that's never displayed at all in the map. Furthermore, Reggio Calabria is the extreme south point of the land, not there where u putted it.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby Commander62890 on Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:26 am

I don't venture into the Foundry a lot, but I am a very active player. I play mainly team games, so I will give my perspective from that area.

From a team game perspective, this map is... well, less than okay. Well below average.

Neutrals are never hit. The only possible bonus is Ottoman Empire, which makes this map very one-dimensional. In trips and quads, an elimination is the main goal... which is not a huge problem, but I feel like this map could be so much more...

If neutrals are a great asset to singles flat rate/no spoils, fine. It's your map; do with it what you want. Just know that the neutrals absolutely ruin this map for team games. The Rail series is popular in team games because the rails can be used; they offer many dimensions of play. This map offers one - eliminate a player on the other team. Great, thanks. That really boggles my mind.

The map has been out for a while; I know you won't undergo overhaul. A decent response is all I would like.
"This map was intended for great singles flat rate/no spoils play; sorry for screwing it up for team games," would be a perfectly fine response.

Just know that it kind of sucks for team games; it looks like a challenge, but one minute of looking through the legend shows it to be very one-dimensional.

If you were wondering... fine, on trips you can try for Ottoman bonus instead of going for an elim. But 2-dimensional is all you'll get. There is absolutely no bonus outside of that one.

Ottoman bonus or go for elimintion... what is this, amateur hour? This map looks great; I just wish the neutrals were in play!

I know you'll give me a good response, Natty. This map just makes me a little sad; that all. If it was a shitty map to begin with, I wouldn't say anything. But this map has potential...
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby natty dread on Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:32 am

Well, truthfully, this map wasn't really designed for any of the 2-side game types (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4)... they all seem to have this certain gameplay element where most maps just come down to "hit your opponent, anything else is just a waste of resources" at least on most of the random drop maps...

You like team games, so have you tried the map on 6 or 8 player dubs? I'm willing to bet it will be a bit different. I'm all for hearing ideas on how to improve the map, but you'll have to also understand that I also have to think about other game types, especially since the map seems to currently work quite well for standard games..
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby Commander62890 on Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:40 pm

Yes, I see what you're saying. This could definitely be a good map for singles and 6/8-player dubs.
I guess it's fine that some maps are made specifically for that game-type; it's not like we have a shortage of maps on CC. Specialized maps is cool with me.
And, of course, if I play a team game on it, I'm not dreading it... I just feel it could be a lot better for that game-type, if that had been the focus.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby army of nobunaga on Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:43 pm

well said, but I dont think the map is bad by any means.

I agree... I really wish the neutrals were 1's. And that bonus (is it the ottoman in the bottom right?) is very chokepointed and easy as hell to hold.

The map looks great and I love the rail + land theme. And natty is one of my favorite mapmakers here... but I too kind of think this map has more potential than gameplay is showing out.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby natty dread on Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:31 am

So guys, can you give me some feasible solutions to your perceived problems?

About neutrals: they are sort of necessary, since I don't see any other way to guarantee fairness of drops with the rail bonuses. If the stations started regular, then what if you drop with both stations of italy for example... As for lowering the neutrals, this is something that could be considered, but again, there are fairness issues... it's already lucky for someone to drop next to the italy stations, since there's only 4 neutrals to take and it gives you a good bonus. And I don't particularly like the idea of "1 neutral territories" since they give a huge advantage in any multiplayer games with cards to whoever drops next to them.

How about lowering the Ottoman bonus? Increasing some of the others?
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:43 am

More small bonuses. It's literally impossible to hold any bonus other than Ottoman, which limits the amount of strategy involved.

Right now, the only thing to decide on is, "Eliminate an opponent or go for Ottoman." That's only 2 choices. More small bonuses would make us think more.




Short of that, or altering the neutrals, there's not much you can do.

Lowering the Ottoman bonus might make eliminations more valuable, but there are still only 2 choices

Increasing the other bonuses would not make them more enticing, because they're too big to take and hold, anyway.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby natty dread on Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:09 am

What about the rail bonuses? There are several small rail bonuses... italy and france, both 2 territories/borders. Ottoman rail bonus. Also, servia, romania & switzerland are all 2 or 1 territories.

I don't know about team games, but in standard games I've seen people hold all of the bonuses...

Anyway, I'm sorry to say but adding bonus areas isn't that simple. For one thing, where would they be added? The only solution that's at least in theory feasible would be dividing existing bonuses into smaller parts. But which ones? This would have to be done in a way that makes sense considering the time period.

So here's my suggestions: for the Ottoman, how about I lower the rail bonus to 2? I could also consider increasing Low Countries land bonus to 3.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:02 am

natty_dread wrote:What about the rail bonuses? There are several small rail bonuses... italy and france, both 2 territories/borders. Ottoman rail bonus. Also, servia, romania & switzerland are all 2 or 1 territories.
I don't know about team games, but in standard games I've seen people hold all of the bonuses...

Ah, but hitting neutrals is a no-no for 1v1 and team, which are the only viewpoints I am presenting. Even if it's just one neutral, on a map of this size, it's not worth it.

natty_dread wrote:Anyway, I'm sorry to say but adding bonus areas isn't that simple. For one thing, where would they be added? The only solution that's at least in theory feasible would be dividing existing bonuses into smaller parts. But which ones? This would have to be done in a way that makes sense considering the time period.

Exactly; you would have to break up the big bonuses. However, I understand that you can't do that without ruining your map. I just wanted to let you know that, without small bonuses (with no neutrals in them), it makes team play rather... straightforward.

natty_dread wrote:So here's my suggestions: for the Ottoman, how about I lower the rail bonus to 2? I could also consider increasing Low Countries land bonus to 3.

That's not going to help my issue, but I guess AoN would be happy with it.



There's really nothing you can do to make it better for team play because the map's focus is singles. I'll stop posting here! ;)
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby army of nobunaga on Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:47 am

ottoman is strong man... in every game so far... quad cooks or private 1vs1 .. they get ottoman. and it is virtually impossible to break.

Im guessing ottoman is the bottom right... Im not looking but its the bottom right that seems to be a key point.

I would just drop the neutrals on some railroads at key points... that would 1) add another entry into ottoman (bottom right) and 2) maybe make a few railroad stations auto deploy 1

btw.. italy seems to be the only feesable railroad country bonus so far. But ive only played the map 7 or 8 times so far man.

Ill add some games tonight to get a better idea for you
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby natty dread on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:08 am

Ok here's the to-do list so far:

- Varna neutrals to 2
- Ottoman rail bonus to 2
- objective to termini + 5 oe stations


I think I'll do these changes first, then we'll see what else needs tweaking.
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Re: AOS: Orient Express 1883 [GP,G,X] files on p.1

Postby army of nobunaga on Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:24 pm

well I dont agree with commander 100% But I see what he is saying.

I think the changes you propose are on the right track man. I am personally not a person opposed to chokepoint bonuses.. I do like that you wil lower the neutral on that side though.

The italian bonuses have been coming into play more lately, and I like that.. I think maybe I might need to do like I did on cricket and play this a lot more and let you know what I think.
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