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Macedonia map [Gp, Gr, X, BETA, Qnchd.]

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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Sat May 01, 2010 10:04 am

Hello,
my next update will be posted here Monday at the latest.

I've been busy at work, i'm sure you understand.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Mon May 03, 2010 5:19 pm

Hi all,
here is the latest work we have done on this map.

sweko has done the xml (initially started by Orange-Idaho-Dog - thank you OID!).

Changes:
- mountains have transparent body
- minor graphic changes
- xml

Version 1.8, Large:
http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae20 ... 18_big.jpg
Image

Version 1.8, Small:
http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae20 ... _small.jpg
Image

XML v1:
http://www.hsm.com.mk/hsm1/nntemp/mk_v1.8.xml

Inspect map here, using the links above:
http://www.conquerclub.com/mapmaker/index.php

Shoot...
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Mon May 03, 2010 5:22 pm

Text on the small version looks a bit blurry.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Wed May 05, 2010 9:31 am

I will solve that one.

Is that really all?

I will wait a couple days more to see if there is more suggestions before implementing this one...
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Wed May 05, 2010 9:40 am

Well, while you're at it, you could also make the small version territory names a bit larger. Right now they're so small I have to lean forward to read some of them and I have pretty good vision...
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Wed May 05, 2010 9:45 am

got it!
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby fumandomuerte on Thu May 06, 2010 12:50 am

natty_dread wrote:Well, while you're at it, you could also make the small version territory names a bit larger. Right now they're so small I have to lean forward to read some of them and I have pretty good vision...


Agree with natty, that would be my only complaint about the map as it is.
I can smell a GX stamp around the corner ;)
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby Orange-Idaho-Dog on Thu May 06, 2010 2:02 am

Not sure how well you guys looked over the XML I gave you, but I noticed I made a mistake when it came to the Ohrid lakes, I had them as 1 territory instead of 2.

You need to find a way to differentiate them, and make sure army circles (if you're using any) fit those two territories on the small version of the map, as well as Dojran Lake.

Graphic's wise, I personally think you're close to getting the stamp. :)
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby fumandomuerte on Thu May 06, 2010 2:30 am

Orange-Idaho-Dog wrote:Not sure how well you guys looked over the XML I gave you, but I noticed I made a mistake when it came to the Ohrid lakes, I had them as 1 territory instead of 2.

You need to find a way to differentiate them, and make sure army circles (if you're using any) fit those two territories on the small version of the map, as well as Dojran Lake.

Graphic's wise, I personally think you're close to getting the stamp. :)


But lakes are not territories, they are like mountains.
To get the bonus you need the 4 territories that share the lakes, am I right?
That's what I deduced from the legend.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Thu May 06, 2010 3:27 am

Yes, thats correct fumandomuerte !
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Thu May 06, 2010 11:44 am

Hi, new versions...

Changes:
- territories names enlarged
- continent color boxes enlarged (bonuses section)
- changed "Lakes" label to "All Territories with Lakes"
- enlarged list of territories with lakes
- added border to lake icon above "All Territories with Lakes" label
- other minor graphic changes (lighter border burn, etc...)

We will make appropriate changes to the xml file too after the graphic discussion is over.

Version 1.9, Large:
Image

Version 1.9, Small:
Image

Waiting for comments...

(Maybe keep the smaller font for the Large version ?)
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Thu May 06, 2010 11:55 am

The graphics look good to me.

I have a gameplay comment though... I have no idea why this wasn't picked up in the GP shop, but why are the bonuses for Veles, Stip & Strumica so low?

Veles has 4 borders to defend, but only gets 3.
Stip & Strumica both have 5 borders but only get 4 each.

Generally, all bonus areas should at least have a bonus big enough to give 1 troop for every border to defend. Veles & Stip are even central to the map, surrounded by all other areas, which should further increase their bonus value.

Unless there's something I'm missing here?
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby fumandomuerte on Thu May 06, 2010 1:18 pm

natty_dread wrote:Generally, all bonus areas should at least have a bonus big enough to give 1 troop for every border to defend. Veles & Stip are even central to the map, surrounded by all other areas, which should further increase their bonus value.
Unless there's something I'm missing here?

It's a small map, making bonuses too large would make it very unbalanced. On the classic map oceania is defending 1 border and gives 2 troops; there is a high correlation (non escalating games) between the winner and the player that held oceania more rounds.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Thu May 06, 2010 2:10 pm

fumandomuerte wrote:It's a small map, making bonuses too large would make it very unbalanced. On the classic map oceania is defending 1 border and gives 2 troops; there is a high correlation (non escalating games) between the winner and the player that held oceania more rounds.


Yes but that's 2 troops for 1 border. I'm talking about 1 troop for 1 border.

All the other bonus areas get at least 1 troop for each of their borders, so it really doesn't make sense to me that the central bonus areas don't. As the map is now, I don't see anyone wanting to take those bonus areas, and people who do end up with them would get the short end of the stick... :-k
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby fumandomuerte on Thu May 06, 2010 7:38 pm

You have a point here natty.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby Orange-Idaho-Dog on Thu May 06, 2010 10:59 pm

fumandomuerte wrote:
Orange-Idaho-Dog wrote:Not sure how well you guys looked over the XML I gave you, but I noticed I made a mistake when it came to the Ohrid lakes, I had them as 1 territory instead of 2.

You need to find a way to differentiate them, and make sure army circles (if you're using any) fit those two territories on the small version of the map, as well as Dojran Lake.

Graphic's wise, I personally think you're close to getting the stamp. :)


But lakes are not territories, they are like mountains.
To get the bonus you need the 4 territories that share the lakes, am I right?
That's what I deduced from the legend.



My bad, I get it now lol. Well in that case, make sure you remove the Lake's in the XML, and fix the "All territories with lakes" bonus.

Although XML is more focused on in the Final Forge, I figured I should at least point it out.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Fri May 07, 2010 3:16 am

natty_dread wrote:Veles has 4 borders to defend, but only gets 3.
Stip & Strumica both have 5 borders but only get 4 each.


So, what is your suggestion, +1 bonus on these "continents"?

How shall we proceed (having in mind that the gameplay discussion already took place and there is no more graphic suggestions)?

Anyone?

EDIT: forgot to mention in Changes list, territory below Skopje which was named "Studenicani" has been renamed, its now called "Vodno"
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Fri May 07, 2010 4:32 am

So, what is your suggestion, +1 bonus on these "continents"?


Yes.

How shall we proceed (having in mind that the gameplay discussion already took place and there is no more graphic suggestions)?


It doesn't matter, small changes to gameplay can be made even in the final forge. You may want to contact the gameplay mods and ask if they agree...
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Fri May 07, 2010 5:03 am

We still are in the Graphics workshop, not in the Final Forge nor in the Gameplay...

It seems logical to me that the map should first get stamped here, moved to ff and then and there this particular discussion can be made and bonuses changed etc.

Also it seems even more logical to me that the mods should be contacted by other mods since this is a procedural matter not raised by me.
You are putting me in a situation that feels like trying to get things done in a communist regime administration (those of us who have been there, done that, know exactly what i mean) :)

If the last resort is me writing them, so be it, but, for the record, i do not think that is the way to go about this.
Last edited by n.n. on Fri May 07, 2010 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Fri May 07, 2010 5:07 am

Orange-Idaho-Dog wrote:Although XML is more focused on in the Final Forge, I figured I should at least point it out.


Thank you sir !
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Fri May 07, 2010 5:21 am

n.n. wrote:We still are in the Graphics workshop, not in the Final Forge nor in the Gameplay...

It seems logical to me that the map should first get stamped here, moved to ff and then and there this particular discussion can be made and bonuses changed etc.

Also it seems even more logical to me that the mods should be contacted by other mods since this is a procedural matter not raised by me.
You are putting me in a situation that feels like trying to get things done in a communist regime administration (those of us who have been there, done that, know exactly what i mean) :)

If the last resort is me writing them, so be it, but, for the record, i do not think that is the way to go about this.


Oh boy...

You know I think the gp mods didn't do you a favor by shoving you out of gameplay so quickly. When I saw this map moved to gfx I thought "so fast? this is not good"... and it seems I was right.

There's nothing communist about fixing flaws when you find them. It's called flexibility.

Hey, it's your map, and you already have the GP stamp so no one is forcing you to make this change. I'm just saying you'll be likely to run into problems in beta-testing if the gameplay stays as it is. To me it would make sense to fix it before beta-testing, so you can get your map quenched faster. I'm just saying.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri May 07, 2010 5:39 am

natty_dread wrote:
So, what is your suggestion, +1 bonus on these "continents"?


Yes.

How shall we proceed (having in mind that the gameplay discussion already took place and there is no more graphic suggestions)?


It doesn't matter, small changes to gameplay can be made even in the final forge. You may want to contact the gameplay mods and ask if they agree...


I've already sent a PM to Evil DIMwit, so he will clarify on what basis the bonuses have been found suitable. ;)
Personally i don't think that it's a big issue if they are a bit smaller than usual....
Anyway, turning back to graphics, I find that the names on the small version are still a little fuzzy, try to save the image as a png, maybe it could solve this issue.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Fri May 07, 2010 5:54 am

Thanks thenobodies80, i will try png !

@natty: i could say oh boy as well, the communist remark was made because it was funny and in reference to you saying to me i should contact the gp mods, but nevermind :) I recognize how the +1 on Stip and Strumica would be beneficial - but i do not agree for +1 Veles because, similar logic could apply to Skopje anbd thats well, too much bonus. All i said was that this is FF OR Gp issue and that the map should be stamped properly and put in the appropriate forum without me having to ping mods.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Fri May 07, 2010 6:18 am

Similar logic doesn't have to apply to Skopje, since it is in the edge of the map. Veles and Stip are both in the center surrounded by all the other bonus areas - they will be the hardest to hold since people will be wanting to go through them.

I strongly suggest that you at least fix the bonuses of Veles & Stip. Give both a +1 more. This will prevent them becoming wastelands that nobody wants, kinda like asia in classic...
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri May 07, 2010 1:04 pm

In fact, it's perfectly allowed, and encouraged, to offer gameplay improvements in the Graphics Workshop, just like it's permissible to give graphics advice in the Gameplay Workshop. Nor do I think we rushed this map out of Gameplay; it had plenty of time to stew. Bonus assignment is hardly a hard-and-fast science, and as long as the bonus structure isn't significantly imbalanced -- which I highly doubt it is, in this case -- it's really up to the mapmaker. I don't think anybody's likely to complain about a single point here or there.

Also, I like how the mountains look, but can you extend the ends of the mountain ranges just a little bit so it doesn't look like, for example, Negotino might border Prilep, or Vinicia and Radovis, or K. Palanka and Kocani?
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