Macedonia map [Gp, Gr, X, BETA, Qnchd.]

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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby ender516 on Mon May 24, 2010 5:42 pm

From where I sit, right now Tetovo and Strumica look very similar, so natty's swaps may not be the whole answer, but they should be an improvement.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Mon May 24, 2010 5:51 pm

Actually, swapping Berovo <-> Strumica might be better than Stip <-> Strumica.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby ender516 on Mon May 24, 2010 5:57 pm

natty_dread wrote:
how does "Change Skopje with Kumanovo and Stip with Strumica." make the map better colorblind-wise?


Take a look at this.

Image

Tetovo & Skopje look very similar. Bitola & Strumica as well. If you do the changes I said, it will be much easier for colour blind people to see these bonus zones.

natty_dread wrote:Actually, swapping Berovo <-> Strumica might be better than Stip <-> Strumica.

I think if you swap Skopje with Kumanovo and Berovo with Strumica, then Kumanovo and Berovo will be just as similar as Tetovo and Skopje are now.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Mon May 24, 2010 5:59 pm

Yeah, I just figured it out... I think the best idea would be Berovo <-> Strumica and Stip <-> Skopje.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby ender516 on Mon May 24, 2010 9:32 pm

Looking at the colour blind map, I wonder if the problem is that there simply aren't enough distinct colours. Tetovo, Bitola, and Strumica are nearly indistinguishable, with Stip slightly lighter and Skopje a little darker. Then Berovo and Veles are quite similar. Kumanovo and Ohrid are the most distinct. Perhaps introducing an entirely new colour with a fair amount of blue (purplish, wine red?) to replace the one used by one of those first three territories would break things up.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Tue May 25, 2010 4:32 am

And easy solution would be to make Strumica and Tetovo a fair bit darker or lighter. (In the case of Strumica, it must be darker, since lighter would be same as Skopje).

But, you know, there are those thick lines separating the bonus areas. So perhaps we shouldn't pay so much attention to the colours...

You know, actually, that colour-blind version looks quite nice. I wouldn't mind if the actual map had colours like that... it would fit the style IMO.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun May 30, 2010 2:46 am

Another thing you can try that might sort of negate the colorblindness thing some is instead of a legend listing is to do a mini map in your own style. porken suggested it before, it got glazed over with the extra graphics he added.... but the idea has some merit.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Sun May 30, 2010 2:52 am

RedBaron0 wrote:Another thing you can try that might sort of negate the colorblindness thing some is instead of a legend listing is to do a mini map in your own style. porken suggested it before, it got glazed over with the extra graphics he added.... but the idea has some merit.


A minimap wouldn't really be necessary here, nor would it fit the style of the map, IMO. The colourblindness is mostly a non-issue, since bonus zone names are identified by the bolded territories which share the same name.

What we've been trying to do here is seeing that no two adjacent colours are too similar for the colourblind. While there are thick black borders separating the bonus zones, I'm afraid the similar colours next to each other could still cause some confusion...
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby porkenbeans on Sun May 30, 2010 3:40 pm

Sorry nat,
but you are dead wrong. A mini-map is indeed needed here. Not only for the colorblind issue, but for the sake of overall clarity itself. Who wants to keep looking back and forth from the map to those little boxes to determine whats what ? It is needless confusion, when a mini-map gets the job done perfectly, with but a glance. ;)
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Sun May 30, 2010 4:00 pm

porkenbeans wrote:Sorry nat,
but you are dead wrong. A mini-map is indeed needed here. Not only for the colorblind issue, but for the sake of overall clarity itself. Who wants to keep looking back and forth from the map to those little boxes to determine whats what ? It is needless confusion, when a mini-map gets the job done perfectly, with but a glance. ;)


You're still missing the point here: the colours aren't the only identifier. Each bonus area is named by it's capital territory, and the capital territory has it's name in bold.

In most maps I like minimaps. This one doesn't need it IMO.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby ender516 on Sun May 30, 2010 8:58 pm

I'm going to side with natty on the mini-map issue, but I wonder if pork doesn't have a point (that perhaps he wasn't trying to make ;) ): maybe the bonus values could be placed directly on the map itself, in a manner similar to the Third Crusade. Voila, no more glancing back and forth.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby porkenbeans on Sun May 30, 2010 11:05 pm

ender516 wrote:I'm going to side with natty on the mini-map issue, but I wonder if pork doesn't have a point (that perhaps he wasn't trying to make ;) ): maybe the bonus values could be placed directly on the map itself, in a manner similar to the Third Crusade. Voila, no more glancing back and forth.
Anything that would allow the viewer to quickly and easily, visually establish the bonus values, and their correlation to each other, would make this map much better to understand, regardless of any color blind issues.

If you only had two or three bonus areas, then the little boxes would work fine. But with nine bonus areas it is difficult to look at the map and visualize the strength and weakness of the bonus areas, in relation to one another. This IS my point that YOU are failing to understand natty. Ender gets my point, if not my solution. A mini-map IS a solution, as is ender's plan. One of these, or another plan is needed. AND THAT IS MY POINT. :D
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:34 am

Colour-wise, I'd suggest the only thing that needs to be done is to make Strumica perhaps a little darker and redder - similar to the red of the shield in the top corner but not quite as strong

That aside, there are only two things which I can see:

1. The tiny bit of grey within each mountain grates with me... I know it's supposed to look like snow, but I think it would look cleaner without it ;-)

2. The order of bonuses in the legend would be better if it followed a logical order from looking at the map. I'd suggest amending the order as follows:
    Tetovo | Skopje
    Ohrid | Kumonova
    Veles | Stip
    Bitola | Berova
    _____ | Strumica
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby ender516 on Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:38 pm

Now for a bit of point, counter-point:
MrBenn wrote:Colour-wise, I'd suggest the only thing that needs to be done is to make Strumica perhaps a little darker and redder - similar to the red of the shield in the top corner but not quite as strong

I think I said before that a purplish colour might be the best way to help the red-green colour-blind, but I think the heavy zone boundaries are enough to make things clear.
MrBenn wrote:That aside, there are only two things which I can see:

1. The tiny bit of grey within each mountain grates with me... I know it's supposed to look like snow, but I think it would look cleaner without it ;-)

Personally, I like the grey (or white, which is how it comes across to me). Without it, the mountains might just look like traces on an oscilloscope or a heart monitor.
MrBenn wrote:2. The order of bonuses in the legend would be better if it followed a logical order from looking at the map. I'd suggest amending the order as follows:
    Tetovo | Skopje
    Ohrid | Kumonova
    Veles | Stip
    Bitola | Berova
    _____ | Strumica

I'm not sure why MrBenn wants to bounce back and forth across the map like this, although on a second reading, I guess he is trying to go down the map while he goes down a column of the legend. I am more inclined to read across the map, so I would put
Code: Select all
Tetovo     Skopje
Kumanovo   Berovo
Ohrid      Veles
Stip       Strumica
           Bitola

or possibly
Code: Select all
Tetovo     Skopje
Kumanovo   Berovo
Veles      Stip
Ohrid      Bitola
           Strumica

depending on whether you see Ohrid as part of the middle row of zones or part of the bottom row of zones. Of course, the rows of zones that I see on the map don't fit as rows of names in the legend, and I don't know if shrinking the text there to put more names on one row would be a good idea, so I think we need more opinions and possibly more ideas here.
I do look forward to playing this map. :)
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:01 pm

It would really be best for me to get some conclusive suggestions on which most of posters here agree...
However, i will try tomorrow to compile the suggestions in a new version.

I will try to apply different colors for the "continents" (for the color blind issue) and maybe some of the other suggestions. Removing the white color from the mountains is really not something i would like to do - mostly because of the reason ender516 already explained.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:01 pm

The exact order of the legend doesn't really matter - the important thing is that there is some logic behind it that correlates in some way to the order of territories on the map.

With regards the colour, the red of the shield is noticeably different from the other region colours on the colourblind version of the map:
Image
I'm not pushing for a change, just suggesting that if a change is to be made, it would be easier to make that region darker, rather than doing lots of swapping around.

I really don;t think this map has got long to go now ;-)
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby ender516 on Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:11 pm

MrBenn's point about the colour of the shield is a good one. I had not noticed how distinct it was before.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby Orange-Idaho-Dog on Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:07 pm

The colors to me, though I'm not color blind, look fine. The bold borders are a rather nice feature on this map, both for the casual player and the colorblind.

The mountains I barely noticed, the only thing I've read that I personally think needs tweaked, is the order of the legend. Otherwise, this map looks ready to go 8-)

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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:12 am

Agree with MrBenn, try to make Strumica a bit darker.
In any case names and borders are very visible,i don't think that there could be colorblind problems once you've set an order for the legend.
Personally I have no problem if you leave the snow on the mountains, but it would be interesting to compare the two versions. :)
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:47 am

Hi,
here is the latest version - 2.1 (06.06.2010)

Changes:
- strumica color - bit darker
- tetovo color - bit lighter
- reordered bonus list

Large:
Image

Small:
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:17 pm

This is one of my favorite new maps in production, so I'm excited to see it keep progressing!

The new legend order is fine. You could also probably do a left to right order...with the two columns being:

Tetvov ___ Kumanovo
Ohrid ___ Stip
Skopje ___ Strumica
Veles ___ Berovo
Bitola

Though the left 5 may not fit in the allotted space, but the geographics of the map do have a 'left' and 'right' look to it, with an imaginary center line.


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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:31 am

The graphics stamp is around the corner, time to stick this thread!

Try to find the best layout for the legend, then the map is ready for the FF ;)
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby Orange-Idaho-Dog on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:40 am

Tetovo --- Kumanovo
Ohrid --- Stip
Skopje --- Strumica
Veles --- Berovo
Bitola

Hmm.. I came up with this by looking at the map and realized it's exactly the same as Andy suggested. This fits the maps left/right feel, imo.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:46 am

During the last update, it looks like you've played aroubnd with some grunge layers, and done something strange in the Tetovo area - it looks like there's a line where something's been erased??

I've compared the two latest images and I can see you've made lots of small adjustments. The latest version looks good (with the exception of the minor tiny niggle I just mentioned). It might be worth trying an alternative legend arrangement. You could always stagger the second list a bit, if you have 5 on the left and 4 on the right (the tops don;t necessarily need to line up).
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby ender516 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:21 pm

Orange-Idaho-Dog wrote:Tetovo --- Kumanovo
Ohrid --- Stip
Skopje --- Strumica
Veles --- Berovo
Bitola

Hmm.. I came up with this by looking at the map and realized it's exactly the same as Andy suggested. This fits the maps left/right feel, imo.

At first, I found this order baffling. I didn't get it when Andy suggested it, but I thought, what the hey. But to find that someone else saw it that way too was a little disturbing. I finally see that you guys seem to be reading the zones as four vertical strips, and then stacking those into the two columns of the legend. It still seems awkward to me, since the shape of the map does not suggest verticality to me, so I just read across, then down, like English text.

The whole issue of the ordering of the legend would disappear if a mini-map were used. I know this was raised and discussed previously, and I even sided partially with the 'no mini-map" faction, but the more I see people trying to figure out how to lay out the columns of text so that they correspond with the map, the more I think that the one-to-one correspondence of a mini-map is the way to go, or possibly my other previous suggestion of putting the bonus values directly on the main map.
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