Macedonia map [Gp, Gr, X, BETA, Qnchd.]

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Re: Macedonia v1.0

Postby n.n. on Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:07 pm

natty_dread wrote:Nice, but the latest version should be first... that way it's easy for people to find. If you put the oldest first, people will comment on the wrong version, simply because people are expecting to find the latest version first... You know, because that's how everyone else does it...


ok, done :)

Waiting for the bonuses/other ideas and arguments...
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby ifkas on Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:04 am

Freakin awesome map ! Thanks for making it nn !!! :)

I have no suggestions to add.. just perfect as it is for now ! good lookin macedonian map
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:44 am

As far as gameplay, the layout is good but the bonuses need to be adjusted. My own recommendations differ a little from fumandomuerte's (I've underlined the differences):

Skopje: 3
Bitola: 4
Veles: 4
Tetovo: 2
Ohrid: 3
Kumanovo: 2
Stip: 5
Berovo: 2
Strumica: 4
Lakes: 3

Bitola is large but it can be defended with just a three-territory perimeter; it shouldn't be worth the most. Veles and Stip are highly connected, central continents and as such should be worth more.
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby SWeko on Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:38 am

First of all, great map, and nice artwork too. (I am Macedonian, so I might be biased :))
I think that this map will be very fun too play, as it looks there will be balanced gameplay.

I agree that Bitola can be defended on 3 territs, but it does have 8 territories (9 if you count kavadarci for defending), so it won't be an easy continent to take, even if it's easy to defend afterwards. +4 is too small a bonus for that, but maybe +6 is a bit too large.
I agree that Veles and Stip are the central and practically undefendable continents, but +5 is again large bonus for a 5 territories contintent, even if it has to be defended on every one of them.

Skopje: 3
Bitola: 5
Veles: 4
Tetovo: 2
Ohrid: 3
Kumanovo: 2
Stip: 4
Berovo: 2
Strumica: 4
Lakes: 3
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby rtgs on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:38 pm

Jas kolku sto se razbiram Kocani i Kumanovo ne se vo ist region i mnogu tesko moze od kocani da dojdesh vo kriva palanka i kratovo, mnogu potesko od drugite planini koi se nacrtani na mapata.

od sosedite gore levo nedostiga kosovo.
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby skeletonboy on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:50 pm

rtgs wrote:Jas kolku sto se razbiram Kocani i Kumanovo ne se vo ist region i mnogu tesko moze od kocani da dojdesh vo kriva palanka i kratovo, mnogu potesko od drugite planini koi se nacrtani na mapata.

od sosedite gore levo nedostiga kosovo.


Is this serbian? Using a translator I got this.

I of course as far as Kocani and Kumanovo not in the same region and very hard of Kocani to dojdesh in Kriva Palanka and Kratovo, many other difficulties of the mountain which is drawn on map. Above left neighbors of a lack of Kosovo.
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby n.n. on Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:20 am

rtgs wrote:Jas kolku sto se razbiram Kocani i Kumanovo ne se vo ist region i mnogu tesko moze od kocani da dojdesh vo kriva palanka i kratovo, mnogu potesko od drugite planini koi se nacrtani na mapata.

od sosedite gore levo nedostiga kosovo.


Its Macedonian.

He is saying that Kocani and Kumanovo should not be in the same region and/or that at least there should be mountains surrounding it (on the north and north-west, my guess) because it is not naturally and directly connected to K. Palanka and Kratovo. Also there is a Kosovo border missing in the North-West.

My response to that is that this is a decision made in the process of map drawing and that i am open to suggestions on how to make it better and more consistent with the real geography.
One possible and consistent solution would be to join Kocani with the Berovo continent and add mountains Kocani/Kratovo and Kocani/K. Palanka borders, that would also mean removing the mountains between Kratovo and Probistip in order to make the new Kumanovo continent open on more than one territory. (Also, there is a existing road between Kratovo and Probistip and these towns are close enough, as a justification for removing the mountains between them)
To this solution i would agree if rtgs (as a Macedonian with the knowledge of terrain in question) agrees to it.
It would make the map even more consistent to Macedonian geography and infrastructure in my opinion.

Unfortunately, this would also mean another revision of bonuses but my best guess is that you guys do not mind as long as this means having a better final product, at least i hope so.

On the Kosovo question - i will eventually add it but it is with lower priority since it does not affect the gameplay.

Will be adding new version soon...
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby Pandemonium on Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:55 pm

Nice, nice discussions...

Almost all valid points.
I would agree with SWeko's last post, and RTGS makes sense too, but I don't know that particular region that well, so I leave it to the map-creator to decide.

PS the drawing around the map start to get pretty dense and if more are added, the maps minimalistic beauty will be lost...

PPS the latest version doesn't load on the first post on page 1 (imageshack error probably...)
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby n.n. on Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:37 pm

Most recent version with some of the proposed changes implemented (mostly from rtgs), posted in the first post also.

Kocani is now part of the Berovo continent.

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Re: Macedonia map

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:02 pm

I like the graphics otherwise, but those mountains will have to go... check out this thread on mountain making by RjBeals: viewtopic.php?f=466&t=78687

Also: why are some territory names in larger size than others? Are they capitals or something? If there's no reason relevant to gameplay then you should make them all the same size. It's kinda distracting.

Ah... now I see, they double as bonus area names. Still, I'd rather you'd find another way of distinguishing them from other territories. Maybe a coloured stroke on the text, or underline, italic, or something like that. But it'd look much better if they were the same size, in my opinion.
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby kristijan_mk on Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:13 am

I disagree with Berovo being a region. Now that Region should be named Kocani (since its much bigger, and natural center of the region)

@natty_dread

I don't agree with putting mountains like in the link. Those kind of mountains suits different style of graphics. On this kind of graphics, there mountains are fine.

btw how does the process of map making continues? We should wait for some kind of sign or something? :)
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:31 pm

It's probably not a good idea to name every bonus area after a territory inside it unless you have a very compelling reason to. A single continent-territory pair with the same name isn't so bad (there are a few of those in playable maps) but doing it to every continent could get confusing.

kristijan_mk wrote:btw how does the process of map making continues? We should wait for some kind of sign or something? :)


Well, once the gameplay's finished and it conforms to Foundry standards, there's a bit of behind-the-scenes bureaucracy and then the map gets a gameplay stamp. Then the topic gets moved to Graphics Workshop for all the art freaks to nitpick over it.
More or less.
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby iancanton on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:51 am

good start on this map!

this united nations map shows that macedonia's main road and railway goes directly from negotino to gevgelija, not through kavadarci. can u change gevgelija's border so it borders negotino? similarly, kicevo's only railway on the united nations map goes directly to gostivar. can u remove the mountains between kicevo and gostivar?

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/ma ... edonia.pdf

have u considered using 3 sets of start positions in the tetovo and kumanovo bonus zones (if there are 4 or more players, then the 3 sets of start positions are ignored and everything is random)? there are 5 small bonus zones on this map, so it's reasonably likely for someone to start with a +2 or +3 bonus if there are no start positions (11% chance for player 1 in 1v1, 30% chance for any player in 1v1v1).

to avoid doubt, my comments in this thread are as a foundry member, since evil dimwit will be stamping the map.

ian. :)
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby kristijan_mk on Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:37 pm

iancanton wrote:good start on this map!

this united nations map shows that macedonia's main road and railway goes directly from negotino to gevgelija, not through kavadarci. can u change gevgelija's border so it borders negotino? similarly, kicevo's only railway on the united nations map goes directly to gostivar. can u remove the mountains between kicevo and gostivar?

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/ma ... edonia.pdf


you have old map of Macedonian municipalities :)
new one can be seen here - http://travel2macedonia.com.mk/travel-t ... government
but regardless of maps... the highway doesn't pass nor through Kavadarci nor through Negotino. Both towns are around 15 km apart, so geographically there no big reason for changing the borders. there is no big reason not to change it, to be honest :)
On the other hand, I'm against removing the mountains between Gostivar and Kicevo. Basically if only one mountain exists on the map, this one would probably be the one :)

The trains are not the most important transport way in Macedonia since we have a small network of railroads. In real life if some army has to be transported, they will be either transported by road or in extremes (like germans at the end of WW2) they will make their own rails :) but that can't be implemented on the map :)


Evil DIMwit wrote:It's probably not a good idea to name every bonus area after a territory inside it unless you have a very compelling reason to. A single continent-territory pair with the same name isn't so bad (there are a few of those in playable maps) but doing it to every continent could get confusing.


The regions themselves are generally known by the major city i.e. Skopje region, Bitola region etc. Even smaller towns that are on the map are own regions in real life. There are some names that are used for statistical purposes, but naming regions by the major city is geographically correct
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:17 pm

kristijan_mk wrote:The regions themselves are generally known by the major city i.e. Skopje region, Bitola region etc. Even smaller towns that are on the map are own regions in real life. There are some names that are used for statistical purposes, but naming regions by the major city is geographically correct


As long as it's clear that the bonus region is distinct from the territory, then, it's fine.
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby iancanton on Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:57 pm

kristijan_mk wrote:
iancanton wrote:this united nations map shows that macedonia's main road and railway goes directly from negotino to gevgelija, not through kavadarci. can u change gevgelija's border so it borders negotino? similarly, kicevo's only railway on the united nations map goes directly to gostivar. can u remove the mountains between kicevo and gostivar?

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/ma ... edonia.pdf


you have old map of Macedonian municipalities :)
new one can be seen here - http://travel2macedonia.com.mk/travel-t ... government
but regardless of maps... the highway doesn't pass nor through Kavadarci nor through Negotino. Both towns are around 15 km apart, so geographically there no big reason for changing the borders. there is no big reason not to change it, to be honest :)

it certainly looks as if the railway passes through negotino, which is also very close to the route of the main highway.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... edonia.png
http://www.mkd.com.mk/regional/roadmap.htm

kristijan_mk wrote:On the other hand, I'm against removing the mountains between Gostivar and Kicevo. Basically if only one mountain exists on the map, this one would probably be the one :)

if the mountain there is so symbolic, then i agree that we ought to keep it!

kristijan, it's especially useful to have comments from macedonians like u, not only to correct mistakes, but also to help to develop the character of the map.

ian. :)
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby kristijan_mk on Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:19 pm

as for the road through Negotino, it's very close to the town, but it doesn't passes through it. But that is nitpicking from my side, so I'll leave to the author of the map to decide. As I said, i have nothing strong against connectiong Negotino with Gevgelija.

As for the mountain between Gostivar and Kicevo, just to be clear... there is a road there, but the road goes from 500m altitude in Gostivar to 1200 m, and back to 600 m in Kicevo. And all that in 30-40 km. And from what I've seen on the maps, if there some more difficulty to pass from one territory to other, then that is impassable on the map.
Macedonia is mountainous country, so if we follow the geography literally, there will be mountains everywhere and just one or two road between regions. I don't think that map will be much fun that way.
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby n.n. on Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:16 pm

Hi to all !

Sorry for not posting here for some time...

Here is the latest version (also posted in first page of the topic):
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Changes:
- Negotino is now bordering with Gevgelija
- Kosovo is removed from the bordering countries since it is not officialy an UN country (http://www.un.org/en/members/)

Thank you all for your comments, lets try to make this map happen !
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Re: Macedonia map

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:06 am

Everything seems to check out for the next step. Enjoy your shiny new
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:49 pm

Happy as a child !

So, here we are in the Graphics workshop, according to guidelines i should prepare a small version of the map and also try the map with the numbers (troops) included - am i correct?
Is there anything else i should do?

Thanks.
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby skeletonboy on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:02 pm

The straight lines are quite hard on the eyes, can you maybe curve the corners or something?
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:32 pm

Well, the lines are that way intentionally, it is the way map is originally drawn as a vector.
I could make them different in the way you are suggesting but it would break the look i was trying to achieve - kind of broken glass vector shaped look.
In my opinion it is not needed nor it would be beneficiary to maps design/look/feel to change or make the lines curved.
I AM willing to make changes to the map to make it better looking and to make it work in conquer (to be a conquer club map) but this particular request is not something i think should be done and i do not agree that it is a good thing aesthetically in this case.
It could be done though if the opinion of the many outweighs the opinion on the few (myself included).

edit: just wanted to say this - the map is completely vector shaped (and then of course exported to jpg) except the bitmap relief background which is the actual relief in the mapped region
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby skeletonboy on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:42 pm

I disagree with you but we would have to get more opinions. Maybe do a version with curves and put up a poll?
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby n.n. on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:52 pm

Maybe...

Anyone else wanting a curved lines version?
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Re: Macedonia map [Gp]

Postby natty dread on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:17 pm

Maybe. Do a version with curved lines so we can compare!
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