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Postby zorba_ca on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:39 am

But anywho, what I meant was I didn't want a territory in Athens that isn't already a border to become a border. Meaning, Tinos already borders with Kyklades and Euboea already borders with Thessaly and Locris, so i'd want to make one of them the link to Xios. Skyros doesn't border any other continents. So, hypothetically, if you were playing and you were trying to hold Athens, you would need to fortify Corinth, Boetia, Euboea and Tinos. I wouldn't want to make it harder still to control and connect Skyros to another continent, cause then you'd had to split your armies even more to control Athens.


Now I understand. I guess, then, that Xios to Euboea is the best to cut down on the circular nature of the map. With that link a player can go from Sterea Ellada (or Peloponesos) to Asia Minor much more reasonably.
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Bonuses

Postby zorba_ca on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:42 am

As for the bonuses...I agree with Marv.

After adjusting them this time I would let the map play and then re-evaluate after about 100 games on it.

Maybe Lack (or Troy) has a way of identifying how often a certain continent was held and you can use that information at a later date to re-adjust if it becomes apparent that one continent is much easier to hold.
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Postby Black Jack on Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:11 am

Again, I would appreciate 42 countries... territories like Troy, Lydia and Makedonia could be splitted easily, and some islands could be used too. Are you sure you want your map a smaller one?


I favor this as a 42 territory map... 6 more to go :D

a. Troy - excellent suggestion... Troy and Phryia

b. Lydia - divided into Mysia and Lydia

c. Makedonia - the 3-finger hand in southern Macedonia was known as Chalcidice

d. The 3 islands, between Troy and Thasos, could be combined into 1 territory.

e. On the left edge of the map... I would add in Magna Graecia. Split this into 2 territories.
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Postby Mr. K on Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:16 am

I dont like 42 territories. That means neutral territories when you play 4 player. How about 40 territories? I could make that happen much easier, and no neutral territories.
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Postby Marvaddin on Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:27 am

Well, unless you have 60 countries (or multiples), you will always have neutral armies in some games.

I used the game finder, and standard games of 4 and 6 players have both 11 pages (a similar number of games). Do you prefer 4 players? The most popular is 3 players (18 pages :shock: ), can you believe?

Anyway, I think there are no problems with some neutral countries. Like deadbeat armies, a good player can take some advantage of their position. 2 neutral countries trouble you that much?
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Postby Mr. K on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:25 pm

40 means there wont be neutral countries for 4,5 or 6 players. 42 means no neutral countries for 3 and 6 players. Right now 36 means no neutral countries for 3,4,5 or 6 territories. Personally I like 4 player best. I'll look more into it later i suppose.
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Postby zorba_ca on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:37 pm

40 means there wont be neutral countries for 4,5 or 6 players. 42 means no neutral countries for 3 and 6 players. Right now 36 means no neutral countries for 3,4,5 or 6 territories. Personally I like 4 player best. I'll look more into it later i suppose.


You might want to check your math there, Mr. K.

40 means that there will be:
3 players = 1 neutral country
4 players = 0 neutral countries
5 players = 0 neutral countries
6 players = 4 neutral countries

36 means that there will be:
3 players = 0 neutral countries
4 players = 0 neutral countries
5 players = 1 neutral country
6 players = 0 neutral countries

Must be the spring sun in those delicate penguin eyes. :D
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Postby Hoff on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:40 pm

I think that the more territories the better. It can be hard to fit them in but i agree with marv that you should have atleast 42. Neural territories arnt a big deal. They dont really matter. Try for as many territories as you can without making the map look confusing. Definitely do not go for less.
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Postby thegrimsleeper on Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:08 pm

I think people place way too much stock in the "magic 42." I've said it before: If you want to play on the Classic map, do it. If you want to play on a different map, don't bitch about the fact that there are more or less countries than you're used to.

36 is a fine number of countries. You'll only have a neutral country in one scenario, and what's the disadvantage? It'll take you longer to get more than 3 armies per turn.

This is your map. Do it your way.
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Postby rocksolid on Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

thegrimsleeper wrote:This is your map. Do it your way.


Hear, hear.
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Postby zorba_ca on Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:37 pm

Well said, Grim!
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Postby Mr. K on Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:34 pm

zorba_ca wrote:
40 means there wont be neutral countries for 4,5 or 6 players. 42 means no neutral countries for 3 and 6 players. Right now 36 means no neutral countries for 3,4,5 or 6 territories. Personally I like 4 player best. I'll look more into it later i suppose.


You might want to check your math there, Mr. K.

40 means that there will be:
3 players = 1 neutral country
4 players = 0 neutral countries
5 players = 0 neutral countries
6 players = 4 neutral countries

36 means that there will be:
3 players = 0 neutral countries
4 players = 0 neutral countries
5 players = 1 neutral country
6 players = 0 neutral countries

Must be the spring sun in those delicate penguin eyes. :D


Haha, my bad, haven't slept in a while. You'd think an engineering student would have his arithmatic down by now.
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Postby freakshow on Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:49 pm

Yeah I would just ignore that Marvaddin guy he tend to be kinda bitchy when he doesn't get his way.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:56 pm

Now...Marv can hit some sensitive nerves. But he speaks his mind and doesn't care who knows it. Many of his suggestions (and not just for this map) are well thought out and placed. He does have an eye for playablity and appeal of the map. Even though his suggestions are his own opinions, most of them tend to be rather sound.

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Postby Marvaddin on Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:56 pm

Thanks, Andy. You can give some good opinions too... :D
Well, I think I helped many maps to become better... You dont need do it my way, those are suggestions for my experience here in the Foundry (I did my own map too, you know).
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Postby Mr. K on Wed May 03, 2006 1:27 pm

Image

I bumped up the number of territories to 40. Unless someone gives me a really really good reason to put it up to 42, i'm not going to. I haven't been convinced by the reasons given so far, so keep the reasons coming if you've got more.

I changed the bonuses up a little to deal with the new territories. If someone wants to tell me i'm wrong and give me better suggestions, by all means do it. I'm not very good with determining the bonuses so i'd love to have some more input.
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Postby areyouincahoots on Wed May 03, 2006 1:28 pm

dark
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Postby Mr. K on Wed May 03, 2006 1:31 pm

Thanks for your in-depth analysis of the map.
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Postby areyouincahoots on Wed May 03, 2006 1:32 pm

I can't analyze it because I can't see it...oy...no one understands. :(
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Postby Mr. K on Wed May 03, 2006 1:38 pm

Image

Heres a much lighter version. If people like it better I suppose I can put it up to a vote before submitting it.
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Postby Fieryo on Wed May 03, 2006 1:44 pm

i like the lighter version. if syerea ellada is worth 5 like peloponesos i think you should make thessaly into two (perhaps three to make it a round 42), its a bug country and it would balance out the bonus. granted im not Marv, its just a suggestion.
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Postby areyouincahoots on Wed May 03, 2006 1:58 pm

It seems like the bonuses are off...now, I may be counting wrong, so feel free to correct me, but if Asia Minor has 9 countries and boarders 3 continents...and Athens has 7 countries and boarders 3 continents...wouldn't it make sense for either Asia Minor to be worth more, or for there to be more ways into Athens? I guess Athens just seems too easy to hold...and Asia Minor not worth enough...

I'd suggest another route (or two) into Athens, another route into Asia Minor, and more points for Asia Minor...
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Postby Mr. K on Wed May 03, 2006 2:32 pm

There are 4 ways into Athens. Corinth, Boeotia, Euboea, and Tinos. Still I could be wrong in my bonuses, i'm not good at it at all so keep the suggestions coming.
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Postby Hoff on Wed May 03, 2006 4:02 pm

I think its took bright, it hurts my eyes. I think the previous shade was fine.
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Postby onbekende on Wed May 03, 2006 4:07 pm

I agree, the shade of the first one had on the side is good.
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