Baltic Crusades

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:18 pm

theBastard wrote:so there will be no manual-deploy armies except Duchies bonuses, religion bonuse and maybe Hanseatic bonus (if hold Visby).

about territories, could we do compromise :) ? some regions will be from start neutral and some divided between players?


Correct. There would be the autodeploy bonuses, which are key as they show how strong the castles and towns are. And then if a player controlled a region or religion group, they would have men to manually deploy.

I took bridges from castles/towns and add them to territories. now it looks more balanced. now all Castles have around twoo territories, only Dunaburg, Kolberg and Vilnius only one.
should be good for now, I wouldn't worry about it until the map hits the gameplay workshop.

I have one question, I wrote it in "Questions & Answers but I did not received exactly answer: is possible to do that for example Castle is possible attack only from Hansa town, but I must also have Town and only than I can attack Castle from Hansa town?
I don't completely understand your question... Are you asking if Castles can only attack towns and not be attacked by anything? That would be a one-way attack and is possible.

EDIT: btw, I play yours 13 colonies. nice map, also gameplay (I like killer neutrals idea), but unfortunately I´ve started very bad :D . only one notise: here also players stack men.


It depends on what type of game you're playing... In escalating and sometimes no spoils, stack is the preferred strategy. With Escalating, around round 7 or 8 all hell breaks loose. With no spoils, is about stacking and waiting for the right moments. Flat Rate is a bit better for fast paced action.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:24 am

than, maybe we can add more auto-deploy. or +4 for Castles and +2 for Hansa towns and Towns is good? what do you think about manualy-deploy "Hansa bonus" if player holds Visby he gain +1 for each Hansa town. it will be maybe too much and complicated. but my idea was to show power of Hanseatic league, which was not only trade league but also with politic influence.

I do not understand exactly Spoils or game types...

about my question: it is only example, ofcourse anything could attack the Castles. I try to explain it better.
so, you hold "blockhouse" which I can attack only by "bombarder". I hold "bombarder" but I must hold also "radar" which navigate "bombarder", so only when I hold combination of these two I can attack "blockhouse".
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:35 am

You mean autodeploy +4 for castles and autodeploy +2 for towns/hansa towns? I think that's a bit steep. Maybe auto deploy 2 for castles and autodeploy 1 for towns/hansa towns... and for the Visby bonus, yeah, that would have to be manual deployed. Are you planning on having Visby start with a neutral? i think you need to.

As for your question... What you are talking about is a "Conditional Border" and is not possible with the latest version of XML for maps. So short answer, no.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:35 am

Industrial Helix wrote:You mean autodeploy +4 for castles and autodeploy +2 for towns/hansa towns? I think that's a bit steep. Maybe auto deploy 2 for castles and autodeploy 1 for towns/hansa towns... and for the Visby bonus, yeah, that would have to be manual deployed. Are you planning on having Visby start with a neutral? i think you need to.


hm, will this not be few auto-deploy? it will need long time when players can start attack. what do you think about my suggestion to do compromise about holding of territories from start? you can sort all of them (except neutral Castles, Hansa towns, Towns) between players, I could do some neutral and some sort between players.

look at situation at the start: each player will have 1 Castle (with 2 armies), 1 Hansa town (1 army), 1 Town (1 army) and several territories (each 2 armies). how much armies will be in neutral territories - 2? if in the first turn player send reinforce from Castle to any his territory he will have only 3 armies there. so maybe for Castles +4, Hansa towns +2 (and manual-deploy +1 Visby bonus) and Towns +2 (and manual-deploy +1 religion bonus) is not so sttep. do not forget that there will be no manual-deploy armies long time (to the time when player conquered any Duchy or gain Visby/religion bonus)... but ofcourse I have no experiences, so I must hear you :D
I also thought about reinforce and I think there must be Unlimited reinforce in game, or?

Visby is already set as neutral.

Industrial Helix wrote:As for your question... What you are talking about is a "Conditional Border" and is not possible with the latest version of XML for maps. So short answer, no.


ou, damned. why mods changed this? I think it could be interesting thing... thanks.

after 2-3 days I will be away, so please, what is needed to finished map and wait for mods resolution to move it?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby natty dread on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:44 am

ou, damned. why mods changed this? I think it could be interesting thing...


I think you misunderstood... it has never been available.

what is needed to finished map and wait for mods resolution to move it?


patience...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:52 pm

natty_dread wrote:I think you misunderstood... it has never been available.


Helix wrote in the last version, therefore I thought it was able. btw, this should be realy new important game enriching...

natty_dread wrote:patience...


yes, yes I know. only I will maybe for one week be able to working on map and I will be lucky to have it completed before I leave...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:18 pm

Well, first off let me tell you that this map is nowhere near finished. Once it hits the gameplay workshop it will undergo evaluation by a lot of players and there will be a lot of refining. Then it will go to the graphics workshop and people will nitpick about hte stuff that bugs them and the little things that need to be fixed. Then XML, presuming you have it done by the time you reach the final forge, will take roughly two weeks before its approved for Beta. You've got a long way to go yet.

I agree, conditional borders would be an awesome addition to the XML, but as it stands we just don't have it and I have no idea how to go about getting it.

Personally, I think +4 auto deploy for castles would be enough, especially if the regular territories are only 2. I guess it depends if the castles start at 3 or 2 or whatever. If its 3, then that makes for a total of 7 the first round, which against 2 is good enough to make at least one sucessful attack. But lik eyou said, you want to keep the game about the strength of castles and towns, strictly having autodeploy is a great way to do this. By giving players manual deployment options, it allows for more freedom on the map and devalues the castles and towns.

As for the territories, I think 2 starting men per territory belonging to random players is the way to go, instead of 2 neutrals on regular territories.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:38 pm

yes I know it is long way to completly finished the map. but for now we can only speak about balance and so on...

yes for the first rund it will be 7, but not in at the one place. these 7 auto-deploy will be sort to three positions -castle, hansa town, town. so player will start with maximum at the one place with 3/4 in castle...

I can find balance between manual-deploy and auto-deploy, because I see that playes looks freedom. I´m afraid that auto-deploy as base will do game slow and players will must think more strategic. but on the other side - this was my idea - to do map/game more strategic...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:13 pm

Sounds good... you need somewhere that "there is no territory bonus outside of regional bonuses" or something to that effect.

Did you decide if you want the regular territories as neutrals or random deployment? (I'm heavily in favor of Random Deployment)
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:18 pm

what exactly mean "random deployment? you mean all territories sort between players from the start? if you favor this way I´m o.k. with this. maybe some territoreis could stay neutral - we will see hwo looks balance.

sorrry for mistakes I´m a liitle drunk :lol:
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:32 pm

Yeah, What I mean by "Random Deployment" is that the territories sort between players from the start, but you can make them only have two men on them instead of three.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:47 am

and will we/I add starting positions for players (sort territories) now or wait when mods will move map to next foundry?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:25 am

OK, make sure that you are updating your first page with the latest image first.

You can list the previous images in a spoiler tag [spoiler*] images [/spoiler*] just removed the stars. Make sure that you include all your information about starting positions and auto-deploy on the first page as well.

In the mean time, let's refine the graphics and gameplay, of which I will post about when i get the chance. You should change your title to say something like "Baltic Crusades - Gameplay Comments please p. 8"

Always include what page the latest version is on in the title.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:10 am

Yeah, Helix has a point. You've done a good job until recently keeping the first post updated with the most recent maps. Although, I think the last version of the map is on page 7, for clarification.

Industrial Helix wrote:Sounds good... you need somewhere that "there is no territory bonus outside of regional bonuses" or something to that effect.


This map just keeps getting nice ideas that make it more unique, it makes me feel all tingly :)

I think that the Open Deployment for most of the territories seems good, at a value of 2 like Helix suggested. Leave the 'extra' castles and towns neutral, obviously, along with Visby. Perhaps a few other spots where an advantageous drop might imbalance things.

However, I think that maybe you should make the bonus for territory count just really high, like +1 for every 15 or something ridiculous, with a minimum of 1, so that a player who gets kicked off of his autodeploy spots doesn't end up with zero troops per turn. It's very rare for a player to become 'dead' due to zero reinforcements in other games, and it's always a little heartbreaking when it happens. In this map, it could become more common.

Then again, maybe that will just add to the map's unique qualities and isn't such a bad thing.

Anyway, keep up the good work and make sure to post it to the front page so that others can see it.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:11 am

Zero deploy can't happen. You always get at least 1 troop to deploy.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:32 am

Oh well, nevermind then, that's a relief. I guess I earned the Chicken Little Award for that last post :oops:
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby MrBenn on Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:10 pm

theBastard wrote:Map Name: The Baltic Crusades
Link to Thread: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=107186
Mapmaker(s): theBastard
Map Size: 75 Territories, Castles and towns are starting positions.
Your aims/design style: To capture the spirit of the medieval period and the Baltic Crusades, notably the siege of castles and towns.
Uniqueness: There aren't any Baltic area maps yet created on CC, though one in the foundry. It focuses on the Medieval period which isn't uncommon but most historical maps on CC have a very western centric focus, this map will draw attention to the lesser known Baltic Crusades. The map features Castles and Towns and gives players a strategy experience set in the medieval period, drawing attention to the importance of trade between towns and castles, as well as long term siege. The map will also capture the essence of the religious conflict and the conversions of peoples.
Relevant Experience: Just learning but learning fast. (thanks to Industrial Helix)


Industrial Helix wrote:Just so you know, you're going to have to have an amount of castles/towns that is divisible by 8. That way everyone starts equally. So you're going to have to edit your towns... I counted 29, so add three or remove 5 or make 5 start neutral all the time.

As others have said, you can put the towns into starting positions and code them as neutrals so that they do get divided evenly.
I think the discussion definitely belongs in the gameplay workshop now....

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:06 pm

Whoo-hoo! Gameplay workshop!

Now its time for more in depth gameplay analysis.

First off, i think you should list which castles and towns will be neutral. Probably on he first page as well to keep things nice and neat.

In reference to the religious bonus, by pair do you mean two Christian Symbols or two Pagan Symbols or One Pagan Symbol and One Christian Symbol?

I think the penalty of the religious bonus is too harsh, no men would suffice.

Do the regional bonuses include the castles and towns? If so, you need to state this somewhere.

Is Dago part of a bonus region? Same for Gotland, B of Cammin and a few others...

For the record, when you get to XML, I think things should take the Battle of Iraq format and read "Castle of Danzig" or "Province of Steratz"
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:03 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Whoo-hoo! Gameplay workshop!

Now its time for more in depth gameplay analysis.


yes, yes we are in! damned I will be away probably for two - three days...

Industrial Helix wrote:First off, i think you should list which castles and towns will be neutral. Probably on he first page as well to keep things nice and neat.


I will up date first page soon.

Industrial Helix wrote:In reference to the religious bonus, by pair do you mean two Christian Symbols or two Pagan Symbols or One Pagan Symbol and One Christian Symbol?

I think the penalty of the religious bonus is too harsh, no men would suffice.


one Christian + one Pagan is a pair and bonus. hm, I like when game has any penalties...

Industrial Helix wrote:Do the regional bonuses include the castles and towns? If so, you need to state this somewhere.


yes, therefore are castles, towns coloured with the same colour as territories.

Industrial Helix wrote:Is Dago part of a bonus region? Same for Gotland, B of Cammin and a few others...


all light brown territories are neutral.

Industrial Helix wrote:For the record, when you get to XML, I think things should take the Battle of Iraq format and read "Castle of Danzig" or "Province of Steratz"


why? it is explained in legend what is castle and what is town. and I´m afraid there is not enough place for so long names.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:08 pm

why? it is explained in legend what is castle and what is town. and I´m afraid there is not enough place for so long names.


I mean just in the little pull down menu when you move troops around, ect. Not the actual map.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:14 am

yes, good idea. it could helps players for better orientation...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:48 pm

Helix, or somebody who knows help me, I group layers "CTRL + E". is possible to divide them back?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:22 am

theBastard wrote:Helix, or somebody who knows help me, I group layers "CTRL + E". is possible to divide them back?


It depend on when you do it. You should have a little window that records your last 20 actions, (file menu WINDOW-> History) giving you the ability to undo. However, if you save and close and then reopen, it's not possible.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:52 pm

nevermind, it was question for Reconquista map, and I did the new version...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Commander9 on Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:00 am

This looks very promising. This specific place are one of my favourites in history (I'm biased because I'm from there), so I really hope to see this through. Good luck and keep up the good work!
But... It was so artistically done.
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