Baltic Crusades

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Re: Baltic Crusades [Update - 13 Oct.]

Postby swimmerdude99 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:24 am

Thank you for you replies nobodies and ender,

I can see now why it is nice, but perhaps it could be faded slightly, maybe half the opacity? (if that is the right word... not sure if it should be doubled or halfed.... but whatever would make the white haze be a little less bold).

I think where it tends to bother me are the regions in Visby, Gotland, Riga Ship (looks like it has more than any othter territs) and most of the East prussian places. I feel like what it is doing is making the text harder to read. Perhaps you could make the text thicker and leave the haze there and that would look better? Just something about the haze seems disorienting. However I think it looks really great on the territs in Terra Mariana, Duchy of Estonia, and Duchy of Pomeralia.

Can you see what I'm talking about at least? Not sure if I'm crazy or way OCD or something haha

Basically I think either the txt thickness (boldness) could be changed a little to be thicker and stand out more, or the haze should be slightly toned down, I think there is too much going on, and it clashes a little. (I really do love the map, otherwise I could care less :))
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby swimmerdude99 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:28 pm

Also, what kind of discussion has there been on the different nuetrals? I feel like there should only be 2 nuetrals maybe for the +1 bonuses?
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:03 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:Also, what kind of discussion has there been on the different nuetrals? I feel like there should only be 2 nuetrals maybe for the +1 bonuses?

There was an attempt at discussion regarding the bonuses back on page 52, but I don't know if we have ever discussed the neutral values.

Why would you want weaker neutrals for the +1 bonuses?
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby swimmerdude99 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:17 pm

ender516 wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:Also, what kind of discussion has there been on the different nuetrals? I feel like there should only be 2 nuetrals maybe for the +1 bonuses?

There was an attempt at discussion regarding the bonuses back on page 52, but I don't know if we have ever discussed the neutral values.

Why would you want weaker neutrals for the +1 bonuses?


I don't see them every being used or coming in handy. Honestly if you have to hold all the autos as well as the normal territs no one will ever take a country bonus really either... so that might be considered... I know these are rather big changes, but I think the ships need to have nuetrals lowered or no one will use them until the game is already over, taking away any tactical usage or avoidance of them, as is, killing a 3 to go somewhere that won't potentially become a bonus since it is worth so little to kill the nuetrals means, no one has to pay the cost of getting across those ships really. I also think since the castles are THREE times as valuable as a city or whatever, then who in their right mind would go through a 3 nuetral to get +1 auto? its worth it for the +3 auto, but not for the +1 imo.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:08 am

I guess it depends on how long you are willing to wait for a return on your investment.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:00 am

ender516 wrote:I guess it depends on how long you are willing to wait for a return on your investment.

But why would you ever go for them if there are castles on the map? Thats like saying someone offers me a job for 10$ an hour or 30$ an hour for the same work, hours etc. and I choose the 10$ an hour job...
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:59 am

Yes, but the castles are harder to hold, as they serve as river crossings, whereas the cities are embedded and thus easier to defend. You might never earn the troops from a castle you take, unless you can afford to keep it well fortified.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby puppydog85 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:34 pm

The castles are easy to get caught behind lines. Then all you can do is fort the men off of them onto the front lines. Usually that means they get eaten off in the attacking dice.

I really like the current setup. The neutral's are not too hard that they become irrelevant, but just hard enough that whoever goes first does not have an insurmountable advantage

(my experience on this map is limited to 3 1v1 sunny, no trench, esc games)
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:01 pm

I've been playing this mostly on Trench.

(I absolutely LOVE it, by the way. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE it!)

In the non-trench games the +1s don't get used much, but in the trench games they do.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:37 pm

That's good to hear. We should expect different strategies under different settings. If the map works in some way or other for each setting, then we have a winner.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby nicarus on Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:19 am

definitely like this map on trench, thanks for the map. :)
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby swimmerdude99 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:43 pm

Oh btw, I notice the territory "kuyavia" its troop count ends up slightly in the territory above it, is there a way to shift that a little? Minor thing, but wasn't sure if it would look better if shifted a tiny bit.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:03 am

I think if you shifted it down, it might start running into the label "Kuyavia", which I think would be worse. Perhaps the artist could move the border slightly?
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:06 am

Started a game on this map.
A few issues:

1. Map is too dark. Some borders are invisible and some territory colors indistinguishable due to the high level of saturation of the darker colors.

2. The buildings all look the same. Castles look like towns, towns look like cities, cities look like castles, etc..

3. It's a color-blind person's worst nightmare. Some of the zones are so close that I literally cannot tell which is which. The worst part is that the bonus situation entirely depends on your ability to have perfect color-vision. The key does not give any explanation beyond telling you what color=what bonus.

I like this map and think the overall layout is very interesting but if the color and building situation doesn't improve drastically I won't end up playing this map. It's just entirely too much work for me to simply read the map. :(
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby puppydog85 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:46 pm

I will second the cities/towns issue.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:34 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Map is too dark.


i can fix this.

Funkyterrance wrote: Some borders are invisible and some territory colors indistinguishable due to the high level of saturation of the darker colors.


Which borders, which colors? More details you give to me, more i can do to give you a better map.

Funkyterrance wrote:The buildings all look the same. Castles look like towns, towns look like cities, cities look like castles, etc..


I can change them, i think.

Funkyterrance wrote:It's a color-blind person's worst nightmare. Some of the zones are so close that I literally cannot tell which is which. The worst part is that the bonus situation entirely depends on your ability to have perfect color-vision. The key does not give any explanation beyond telling you what color=what bonus.


Again, which colors? all them...what is hard for you to see/distinguish?

I will work on an update as soon as I receive more details about the colorblind issue.

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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:30 am

I don't see the problem with the buildings. If you can look at the legend and not see the difference between a castle (blocky, probably four sided), a Hanseatic city (two or three large peaked roofs), and a town (three steeples), then I don't know what to tell you. Plus, the castles have one of two shields on them.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:37 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Map is too dark.


i can fix this.

Funkyterrance wrote: Some borders are invisible and some territory colors indistinguishable due to the high level of saturation of the darker colors.


Which borders, which colors? More details you give to me, more i can do to give you a better map.

Funkyterrance wrote:The buildings all look the same. Castles look like towns, towns look like cities, cities look like castles, etc..


I can change them, i think.

Funkyterrance wrote:It's a color-blind person's worst nightmare. Some of the zones are so close that I literally cannot tell which is which. The worst part is that the bonus situation entirely depends on your ability to have perfect color-vision. The key does not give any explanation beyond telling you what color=what bonus.


Again, which colors? all them...what is hard for you to see/distinguish?

I will work on an update as soon as I receive more details about the colorblind issue.


I have no problem giving more information. I just figured I would let me troubles be known and if you were interested in making changes, I would give more details. ;) Some people don't care what others think of their maps.

Ok, borders that are invisible:

Between Prussia, Pomesania, Marienburg. Only way I can make out the borders is if I turn all the lights out in my house and put my face very close to screen. I think this is just a result of the map being incredibly dark.

Color blind issues:

Western half of Prussia, Courland, Teutonic Order, Ducky of Samogitia, Bishop of Osef all look the same on the map and even more so on the key.
Duchy of Pomeralia and Papal Legatus look exactly the same color to me.

All of these issues could possibly be helped dramatically by simply lightening up the entire map a lot. Also, it's always nice to have the legend show where bonuses are without having to depend on color. A number of maps are set up like this and if I have a hard time seeing the colors I can at least have the legend to fall back on.

I am wondering why was the color scheme of the map changed from the version earlier in this thread? The early version the castles were very obvious to look at and the colors were easy to see as well and very attractive. The map was also very lighter and easier to read. Right now it looks like that American Civil War map which I played once and gave up since it's like looking for my car keys on the lawn at midnight.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:49 am

ender516 wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:Oh btw, I notice the territory "kuyavia" its troop count ends up slightly in the territory above it, is there a way to shift that a little? Minor thing, but wasn't sure if it would look better if shifted a tiny bit.
I think if you shifted it down, it might start running into the label "Kuyavia", which I think would be worse. Perhaps the artist could move the border slightly?


I will move the border on the small as soon as we take a decision for the large version. ;)

Funkyterrance wrote:Between Prussia, Pomesania, Marienburg. Only way I can make out the borders is if I turn all the lights out in my house and put my face very close to screen. I think this is just a result of the map being incredibly dark.


I suspect you have strange monitor settings...or (no offence O:) ) a very bad eyesight. I can distinguish the borders easily, all those you listed. Anyway the latest version is lighter than the previous one, so let me know how it looks for you.

Funkyterrance wrote:Western half of Prussia, Courland, Teutonic Order, Ducky of Samogitia, Bishop of Osef all look the same on the map and even more so on the key.
Duchy of Pomeralia and Papal Legatus look exactly the same color to me.


There are so many different forms of colorblind that it's hard to create something that is perfect for anyone. In any case I changed a bit also the colors.
Pomeralia is now white, the dark green zone is lighter, the same for courland. I changed a bit also papal legatus and sword of brethen. The legend is not updated so you can see the color difference. Again let me know if this one is better.

Click image to enlarge.
image


I post also two colorblind test for the new version:

show: colorblind test


P.s. I've also made less bold the territories font and I've decreased glow opacity on names...for some of them i changed also the color of the glow.

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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:19 am

I hope you managed all those changes without changing any coordinates, thenobodies80, or I might have to reach through the interwebs and strangle you. ;) Have a Happy New Year!
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:58 am

tnb80. can i ask what CB software you use and what gamma setting you have on it please.
Reason: i get quite different images with the visicheck i use at 240 gamma recommended.
Given that FT said he had difficulty with the key...why would you decrease glow opacity on names.
i have to admit that the bottom right legend is quite hard to read even for me. :)
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Pyrhhus on Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:22 pm

I dig the map but have one minor request. Could it be explicitly stated that cities and towns are needed for the land bonuses?

I know it's sorta inferred when you say castles aren't needed, and it becomes obvious if Gotland starts non-neutral, but I feel like needing extra stuff besides just the land territories is the exception rather than the rule, and thus worth noting.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:22 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image



This image looks a million times brighter than the map you play when you start a game.
I actually have very good vision, just colorblind. ;)

The colors on the legend are still very similar to me though on this version. The map is pretty much readable though. And to answer your earlier question, from what I understand I'm protanopic and partially deuteranopic.
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby swimmerdude99 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:23 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image



This looks PHENOMENAL!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Baltic Crusades [Beta]

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:26 pm

I agree it's much better, I can see the borders and the castles are distinguishable now. I still feel it could be quite a bit lighter though as a lot of the legend colors still look similar and the map still has a "shady" look that makes it not as visible as it could be for comfortable gameplay.
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Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

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