Baltic Crusades

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:17 pm

MarshalNey wrote:All new maps, however, must be made with 8-player gameplay in mind.


I did not know this. o.k, no problem I will go by yours advices.

MarshalNey wrote:My recommendation would be to make Gniezno, Memelburg, Narva and Rhein start as neutral 6 (or more).

Gniezno, Memelburg and Rhein I picked because it spaces the castles out relatively evenly (1 country in between).

Narva I picked because it's sort of isolated and easier to defend at the edge of the map up there.


yes, this sounds fine.

MarshalNey wrote:Similarly, for the Hanseatic towns and other towns I would "un-neutral" 2 of them each, so that 8 start open for players and 2 would be neutral.


Visby must be 100% neutral, so one more...

MarshalNey wrote:By the way, in my previous post I was saying that the Hanseatic towns are nice, I like them and keep them in!


thanks :)
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:00 pm

starting positions for 8 players. each has one castle, one Hansa town and one town. Visby is neutral because its extra bonus and Stettin - the opossite corner of map against Narva.

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:41 pm

There's something I want to suggest as I don't really like the starting point/conquer maps so much. On the Third Crusade map Kabanellas coded a starting point for each player at 6 armies across the map and then lef tthe rest of the map to deploy randomly at 3 armies per territory. What if you Coded Castles at 6, Hanseatic towns at 5 and towns at 4, each autodeploy's +1. The rest is open to random deployment, and if you want to really spice things up the regular territories can start at 2.

Then people won't do the whole sit and stack method and the game will be much more fluid and about conquering territories and taking towns and castles. Plus, you'll have to worry less about equal spacing between the castles, towns and hanseatic towns.

Also... i don't like how the bridges lead into castles... seems kind of strange to me. I'd prefer the bridges to link just the territories.

And speaking of the bridges... do the double clickon the layer and add some dropshadow.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:24 pm

I agree with Helix on this one, I also like open deployment games more than the conquer-the-neutrals maps, there's more strategy involved rather than just mere patience and stacking.

Third Crusade is a good example of an open-deployment map, and it's an extremely popular map right now (for good reason imo).

However, maps like Feudal War are also popular, so the map will probably work either way you decide to go with it.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:27 pm

Thumbs up for non-conquer-the-gray-men gameplay.


--Andy
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:10 am

Industrial Helix wrote:There's something I want to suggest as I don't really like the starting point/conquer maps so much.


now I see that non-conquer maps are more popular. but if I change auto-deploy to manuly-deploy all my idea is gone... it need to find any balance between auto-deploy and manualy-deploy.
also castles will lost their regional importance, and as MarshalNay wrote: "Really, all of the auto-deploys will make the gameplay fairly different to my mind, and it's perfect for the single-territory 'stronghold' theme of medieval conquest, particularly in the relatively sparsely populated Baltic states."

Industrial Helix wrote: On the Third Crusade map Kabanellas coded a starting point for each player at 6 armies across the map and then lef tthe rest of the map to deploy randomly at 3 armies per territory. What if you Coded Castles at 6, Hanseatic towns at 5 and towns at 4, each autodeploy's +1. The rest is open to random deployment, and if you want to really spice things up the regular territories can start at 2.


o.k. what about to code more auto-deploy as now: Castles +6, Hansa towns + 3 (and bonus +1 if you hold Visby), Towns +3. come on and look how the start would looks: you have from start one Castle (6 armies), one Hansa town (3 armies) and one Town (3 armies). you have also 3 manualy-deploy armies from start. so if you deploy them to Castle you will have in 9 armies, so you can in one turn capture 1/2 or 1/3 of any Duchy. and yes we can add manualy-deploy armies for each Castle +2, Hansa town +1, Town +1 - than you can deploy to Castle 7 armies (3 you have from start, 2 for Castle, 1 for Hansa town, 1 for Town). so something similar as you wrote but contrariwise (auto-deploy will be still more important).

and we can code that territories belonging to player´s starting positions will be not neutral but player holds them. it is logical - when you hold Castle/Hansa town/Town you rule its region. so now there will be realy few neutral regions.

also do not forgot that there are much manualy-deploy bonuses for Duchies which are not large (they are mostly consist with 3-4 regions), also religion manualy-deploy bonus.

about regular territories, Helix, you think to do them neutral with 2?

Industrial Helix wrote:Also... i don't like how the bridges lead into castles... seems kind of strange to me. I'd prefer the bridges to link just the territories.

And speaking of the bridges... do the double clickon the layer and add some dropshadow.


I add bridges into castles because castles were buil to protect important river/mountain crosses. maybe I coud add bridges to territory and do small territory around castle (not as separate but belonging to castle)...

good idea with shadows.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:39 am

For the bridges, as long as you've got a reason I'm cool with it.

So yeah, going back to the deployment... You can make the castles, towns and hanseatic towns autodeploy and still start at different numbers and still have random deployment. That's perfectly fine. But like you said... those numbers might be a little high as castles would then be able to blitz the nearest area and would give the first player an advantage. So there are two options... 1) Lower the numbers on the castles or 2) (My preferred option) get rid of manual deployment 3 and make this map totally reliant on autodeploys.

Getting rid of the manual 3 would make castles and towns so much more valuable, especially in the beginning rounds, and raise the importance of the auto-deploy significantly. Only when a player controls a region, is he going to start getting manual troops... symbolic of recruiting or a draft.

For the rest of the areas you have labeled as neutral, make them random deployment (as in any player can get them) but only 2 men per territory. It's small numbers but it opens up the option of a player gaining strength from the land and will make the activity outside the castles and towns less static. Players won't be able to sit, wait and stack if the territories are all their enemies and not neutrals.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:26 pm

I absolutely agree with you, to do map auto-deployed and only for Duchies will be manual-deploy armies. the problem was that I´ve read that these 3 manual-deploy armies from start are needed.

about bridges, should they be as they are or would I have make what I wrote (small area around castles - but this coud confused players because after this will not castle looks as in legend). but when I look at the map, players which will have Castles with bridges will have bg advantance - they could from start attack two territories (one in witch castle lie and second connected with bridge). I will add bridges to territories than.

Industrial Helix wrote:For the rest of the areas you have labeled as neutral, make them random deployment (as in any player can get them) but only 2 men per territory. It's small numbers but it opens up the option of a player gaining strength from the land and will make the activity outside the castles and towns less static. Players won't be able to sit, wait and stack if the territories are all their enemies and not neutrals.


sorry me, but this I not exactly understand. all territories (except starting positions) will be neutral?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:04 pm

The 3 manual deploy armies are not required.

For the bridges, you can even it out by making sure everyone has a castle with a bridge or making it so that the bridges don't go to the castles. You're call, but you got to make it even.

And for the last bit, no it would mean that the territories that are not castle/towns would be any player, not neutral, and start at two.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:44 pm

so there will be no manual-deploy armies except Duchies bonuses, religion bonuse and maybe Hanseatic bonus (if hold Visby).

about territories, could we do compromise :) ? some regions will be from start neutral and some divided between players?

I took bridges from castles/towns and add them to territories. now it looks more balanced. now all Castles have around twoo territories, only Dunaburg, Kolberg and Vilnius only one.

I also deleted land routes from Castles, now are connected only Hansa towns - so now player from Castle can not soon attack Hansa town, and it is also candid because Hansa towns connected by sea routes are also not interrupted (except necessary islands).

I have one question, I wrote it in "Questions & Answers but I did not received exactly answer: is possible to do that for example Castle is possible attack only from Hansa town, but I must also have Town and only than I can attack Castle from Hansa town?

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image


EDIT: btw, I play yours 13 colonies. nice map, also gameplay (I like killer neutrals idea), but unfortunately I´ve started very bad :D . only one notise: here also players stack men.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:18 pm

theBastard wrote:so there will be no manual-deploy armies except Duchies bonuses, religion bonuse and maybe Hanseatic bonus (if hold Visby).

about territories, could we do compromise :) ? some regions will be from start neutral and some divided between players?


Correct. There would be the autodeploy bonuses, which are key as they show how strong the castles and towns are. And then if a player controlled a region or religion group, they would have men to manually deploy.

I took bridges from castles/towns and add them to territories. now it looks more balanced. now all Castles have around twoo territories, only Dunaburg, Kolberg and Vilnius only one.
should be good for now, I wouldn't worry about it until the map hits the gameplay workshop.

I have one question, I wrote it in "Questions & Answers but I did not received exactly answer: is possible to do that for example Castle is possible attack only from Hansa town, but I must also have Town and only than I can attack Castle from Hansa town?
I don't completely understand your question... Are you asking if Castles can only attack towns and not be attacked by anything? That would be a one-way attack and is possible.

EDIT: btw, I play yours 13 colonies. nice map, also gameplay (I like killer neutrals idea), but unfortunately I´ve started very bad :D . only one notise: here also players stack men.


It depends on what type of game you're playing... In escalating and sometimes no spoils, stack is the preferred strategy. With Escalating, around round 7 or 8 all hell breaks loose. With no spoils, is about stacking and waiting for the right moments. Flat Rate is a bit better for fast paced action.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:24 am

than, maybe we can add more auto-deploy. or +4 for Castles and +2 for Hansa towns and Towns is good? what do you think about manualy-deploy "Hansa bonus" if player holds Visby he gain +1 for each Hansa town. it will be maybe too much and complicated. but my idea was to show power of Hanseatic league, which was not only trade league but also with politic influence.

I do not understand exactly Spoils or game types...

about my question: it is only example, ofcourse anything could attack the Castles. I try to explain it better.
so, you hold "blockhouse" which I can attack only by "bombarder". I hold "bombarder" but I must hold also "radar" which navigate "bombarder", so only when I hold combination of these two I can attack "blockhouse".
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:35 am

You mean autodeploy +4 for castles and autodeploy +2 for towns/hansa towns? I think that's a bit steep. Maybe auto deploy 2 for castles and autodeploy 1 for towns/hansa towns... and for the Visby bonus, yeah, that would have to be manual deployed. Are you planning on having Visby start with a neutral? i think you need to.

As for your question... What you are talking about is a "Conditional Border" and is not possible with the latest version of XML for maps. So short answer, no.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:35 am

Industrial Helix wrote:You mean autodeploy +4 for castles and autodeploy +2 for towns/hansa towns? I think that's a bit steep. Maybe auto deploy 2 for castles and autodeploy 1 for towns/hansa towns... and for the Visby bonus, yeah, that would have to be manual deployed. Are you planning on having Visby start with a neutral? i think you need to.


hm, will this not be few auto-deploy? it will need long time when players can start attack. what do you think about my suggestion to do compromise about holding of territories from start? you can sort all of them (except neutral Castles, Hansa towns, Towns) between players, I could do some neutral and some sort between players.

look at situation at the start: each player will have 1 Castle (with 2 armies), 1 Hansa town (1 army), 1 Town (1 army) and several territories (each 2 armies). how much armies will be in neutral territories - 2? if in the first turn player send reinforce from Castle to any his territory he will have only 3 armies there. so maybe for Castles +4, Hansa towns +2 (and manual-deploy +1 Visby bonus) and Towns +2 (and manual-deploy +1 religion bonus) is not so sttep. do not forget that there will be no manual-deploy armies long time (to the time when player conquered any Duchy or gain Visby/religion bonus)... but ofcourse I have no experiences, so I must hear you :D
I also thought about reinforce and I think there must be Unlimited reinforce in game, or?

Visby is already set as neutral.

Industrial Helix wrote:As for your question... What you are talking about is a "Conditional Border" and is not possible with the latest version of XML for maps. So short answer, no.


ou, damned. why mods changed this? I think it could be interesting thing... thanks.

after 2-3 days I will be away, so please, what is needed to finished map and wait for mods resolution to move it?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby natty dread on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:44 am

ou, damned. why mods changed this? I think it could be interesting thing...


I think you misunderstood... it has never been available.

what is needed to finished map and wait for mods resolution to move it?


patience...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:52 pm

natty_dread wrote:I think you misunderstood... it has never been available.


Helix wrote in the last version, therefore I thought it was able. btw, this should be realy new important game enriching...

natty_dread wrote:patience...


yes, yes I know. only I will maybe for one week be able to working on map and I will be lucky to have it completed before I leave...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:18 pm

Well, first off let me tell you that this map is nowhere near finished. Once it hits the gameplay workshop it will undergo evaluation by a lot of players and there will be a lot of refining. Then it will go to the graphics workshop and people will nitpick about hte stuff that bugs them and the little things that need to be fixed. Then XML, presuming you have it done by the time you reach the final forge, will take roughly two weeks before its approved for Beta. You've got a long way to go yet.

I agree, conditional borders would be an awesome addition to the XML, but as it stands we just don't have it and I have no idea how to go about getting it.

Personally, I think +4 auto deploy for castles would be enough, especially if the regular territories are only 2. I guess it depends if the castles start at 3 or 2 or whatever. If its 3, then that makes for a total of 7 the first round, which against 2 is good enough to make at least one sucessful attack. But lik eyou said, you want to keep the game about the strength of castles and towns, strictly having autodeploy is a great way to do this. By giving players manual deployment options, it allows for more freedom on the map and devalues the castles and towns.

As for the territories, I think 2 starting men per territory belonging to random players is the way to go, instead of 2 neutrals on regular territories.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:38 pm

yes I know it is long way to completly finished the map. but for now we can only speak about balance and so on...

yes for the first rund it will be 7, but not in at the one place. these 7 auto-deploy will be sort to three positions -castle, hansa town, town. so player will start with maximum at the one place with 3/4 in castle...

I can find balance between manual-deploy and auto-deploy, because I see that playes looks freedom. I´m afraid that auto-deploy as base will do game slow and players will must think more strategic. but on the other side - this was my idea - to do map/game more strategic...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:13 pm

Sounds good... you need somewhere that "there is no territory bonus outside of regional bonuses" or something to that effect.

Did you decide if you want the regular territories as neutrals or random deployment? (I'm heavily in favor of Random Deployment)
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:18 pm

what exactly mean "random deployment? you mean all territories sort between players from the start? if you favor this way I´m o.k. with this. maybe some territoreis could stay neutral - we will see hwo looks balance.

sorrry for mistakes I´m a liitle drunk :lol:
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:32 pm

Yeah, What I mean by "Random Deployment" is that the territories sort between players from the start, but you can make them only have two men on them instead of three.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:47 am

and will we/I add starting positions for players (sort territories) now or wait when mods will move map to next foundry?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:25 am

OK, make sure that you are updating your first page with the latest image first.

You can list the previous images in a spoiler tag [spoiler*] images [/spoiler*] just removed the stars. Make sure that you include all your information about starting positions and auto-deploy on the first page as well.

In the mean time, let's refine the graphics and gameplay, of which I will post about when i get the chance. You should change your title to say something like "Baltic Crusades - Gameplay Comments please p. 8"

Always include what page the latest version is on in the title.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:10 am

Yeah, Helix has a point. You've done a good job until recently keeping the first post updated with the most recent maps. Although, I think the last version of the map is on page 7, for clarification.

Industrial Helix wrote:Sounds good... you need somewhere that "there is no territory bonus outside of regional bonuses" or something to that effect.


This map just keeps getting nice ideas that make it more unique, it makes me feel all tingly :)

I think that the Open Deployment for most of the territories seems good, at a value of 2 like Helix suggested. Leave the 'extra' castles and towns neutral, obviously, along with Visby. Perhaps a few other spots where an advantageous drop might imbalance things.

However, I think that maybe you should make the bonus for territory count just really high, like +1 for every 15 or something ridiculous, with a minimum of 1, so that a player who gets kicked off of his autodeploy spots doesn't end up with zero troops per turn. It's very rare for a player to become 'dead' due to zero reinforcements in other games, and it's always a little heartbreaking when it happens. In this map, it could become more common.

Then again, maybe that will just add to the map's unique qualities and isn't such a bad thing.

Anyway, keep up the good work and make sure to post it to the front page so that others can see it.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:11 am

Zero deploy can't happen. You always get at least 1 troop to deploy.
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