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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby mattattam on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:57 am

Alright The Bison King I just realized something and I feel silly for this :oops: :oops: :oops:

I thought Rollaland was the only territory of Ifnal. I didnt realize you split the country like that. Perhaps that's some feedback in and of itself to make Rollaland more color orientated with the rest of Ifnal.

Disregard everything I said about making rollaland neutral 5. It doesn't need to be nuetral at all and I think it was perfectly fine as a bonus of 4 in its original state that you had it in. Sorry if you spent much extra time on this. Thanks for listening all the same. I was wondering why you orriginally said making all of the territories nuetral would be to much lol. :oops:
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:41 am

I'd like to see some numbers on the map because I think the small map, and some places on the large map, are too tight to fit numbers. The map must accommodate most of the name plus the numbers.

I think if you fiddle with the names and borders you can make it happen. This should help as well:

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=48259
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:54 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I'd like to see some numbers on the map because I think the small map, and some places on the large map, are too tight to fit numbers. The map must accommodate most of the name plus the numbers.

I think if you fiddle with the names and borders you can make it happen. This should help as well:

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=48259
Yes, I have already mentioned that some of the territs are way too small. You have plenty of room, so just do some redrawing, and make them larger. This one detail is the only bad thing about this map. Otherwise, it is absolutely gorgeous. :D
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:36 pm

Yeah some fiddling was required but I stuck the troop counters in .

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=114460

A few area's get a bit cramped in the small one, but the large has plenty of breathing space.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:59 pm

Image

Ok, the administrators were requesting that I ad some more dynamic to the game play, so this is what I have to offer.

6 potential rail bonuses. These would work in the same fashion as the Indian Empire map. As in, there are not any rail station territories (Those little circles at the end of the tracks are NOT territories) instead the bonus is acquired by controlling all territories along the path of the tracks. I kind of high balled it on the amount of rail bonuses. I think it might be wise to cut 1 or 2 out, but maybe not. I really need to test it more to say for sure.

I kept the rail bonuses purposefully small, since several of them build of preexisting bonuses.

One of the things that I am happy about is that this ads greater significance to the Caprinthian territories, Which usually remain relatively inactivity until mid or end game on account of it being a hard bonus to hold. That being said having 2 rail bonuses run through it runs the threat of it becoming too easy to hold so I think that one of them should be removed.

Also the +5 In the far North might be too high what do you think?

BTW this obviously is NOT what the final graphics will look like and is just a draft to show you what is going on in my head.

Any way, there is a lot here to think about and tweak so please give me your feedback. The main things I am interested in hearing is whether the bonuses are to high or low, if there are too many of them, or if the map needs them at all.

I look forward to your comments, and hopefully this map will move into the game play workshop soon!
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:58 pm

What if a territory on either end of the rail could use the rail to move troops and attack the end station, similar to the use of rails in the late 19th and early 20th century?

The numbers are a good addition and I see that the only major problems you have are the micronations, like Azuran, Illania and Alus. The islands are unrecognizable with numbers, but perhaps those could be moved off the island, similar to what I did on Italian Unification. I'd highly recommend redrawing the micronation borders or doing away with them altogether.

The small map is overly cramped, perhaps with a little photoshopping you could expand the size of the land and shrink the sea some. I don't know how you're going to fit he rails on there as well.

I'd also like to see some sort of resources or factories, rails are a good start though.

I'd also like to suggest that maybe, given the graphical feel of the map, that industrial era might not be the best theme for this map. Maps like Research and Conquer carry the industrial theme much better, with a steampunk sort of feel to the graphics. This map speaks more like tribal or ancient empires to me. A land with a more mythical quality than coal and iron... plus the sail ship, versus steamers, helps to drive this feel. Perhaps you ought to take it in that direction?
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:20 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:What if a territory on either end of the rail could use the rail to move troops and attack the end station, similar to the use of rails in the late 19th and early 20th century?

The numbers are a good addition and I see that the only major problems you have are the micronations, like Azuran, Illania and Alus. The islands are unrecognizable with numbers, but perhaps those could be moved off the island, similar to what I did on Italian Unification. I'd highly recommend redrawing the micronation borders or doing away with them altogether.

The small map is overly cramped, perhaps with a little photoshopping you could expand the size of the land and shrink the sea some. I don't know how you're going to fit he rails on there as well.

I'd also like to see some sort of resources or factories, rails are a good start though.

I'd also like to suggest that maybe, given the graphical feel of the map, that industrial era might not be the best theme for this map. Maps like Research and Conquer carry the industrial theme much better, with a steampunk sort of feel to the graphics. This map speaks more like tribal or ancient empires to me. A land with a more mythical quality than coal and iron... plus the sail ship, versus steamers, helps to drive this feel. Perhaps you ought to take it in that direction?
Nice eye IH,
I agree with that assessment. The soft pastel watercolor, does not lend itself very well to an industrial theme.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:47 pm

I dig, instead of rail road tracks, Trade routes. Maybe a little reminiscent of Roman roads in places. I like the idea of the idea of interconectability with the ends of the roads. I might ad in a few stops in a few places like Iskul and Crygnotica (under "+5").

If I am understanding he correctly...

The Rail "Road or route" Bonuses work in this fashion:

To obtain the bonus you must hold all territories along the path of the rail "road"

Any territory along the path of the road with a circle on it can attack any other territory along the path of the route with a circle on it.

I need to find a way of condensing that for the final.

I like this rule a lot. There is only one problem I have with it. I want Dalmus to still be able to act as a barrier. What's the point of having a barrier between two bonuses if you can just go right past it?

However that is a problem that is easily fixed by just redrawing the path with a break with it, and have a little note about it. I'll do a new draft soon, it'll make sense. So really I am quite content with this.

However, I am still convinced that there are too many road bonuses and that one or two from the west side should be removed. I'm thinking either one of the ones that runs through Caprinthia, or the far North path (The one along Solonabirsk and Skyatica worth +5).
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby mattattam on Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:02 am

I like what IH said. Having the ends attack each other is a nice add on to the rails or routes I should say.

I think you should remove the +5 route in the north and move the +2 rail that runs from [Arleus - Denmarn] run from [Denmarn - Northern Frontier] instead. That way you have a rail in every country and it doesn't take up as much space as the +5 rail. Also it wont get in the way of the names of the territories up north.

Lastly I think your +1 route [Hellengar - Theraland] is too low of a bonus. It runs through 5 territories at the moment. I think you should make this +2 and I don't think it should run through Iskul. 4 territories is enough and if you don't have it go through Iskul it won't block out the name of the Tuskaroja territory.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:04 pm

I want Dalmus to still be able to act as a barrier. What's the point of having a barrier between two bonuses if you can just go right past it?

However that is a problem that is easily fixed by just redrawing the path with a break with it, and have a little note about it. I'll do a new draft soon, it'll make sense. So really I am quite content with this.


Scratch that I was being an idiot. Here is a better solution. Each territory with a circle on it can only attack the next territory along the path with a circle on it. Also I'll change the circle to be representative of a fort or castle.

I think you should remove the +5 route in the north and move the +2 rail that runs from [Arleus - Denmarn] run from [Denmarn - Northern Frontier] instead. That way you have a rail in every country and it doesn't take up as much space as the +5 rail. Also it wont get in the way of the names of the territories up north.


That's pretty good but instead of ending it at Denmarn I think it might be better to end it in Northern Caprinthia. I'll probably drop it down to +3 or +4 If I do that.

Lastly I think your +1 route [Hellengar - Theraland] is too low of a bonus. It runs through 5 territories at the moment. I think you should make this +2 and I don't think it should run through Iskul. 4 territories is enough and if you don't have it go through Iskul it won't block out the name of the Tuskaroja territory.


I agree that it should not run through Iskul. I disagree with it needing to be more than +1. My reason behind this is because if someone succeeds in taking the entire eastern half of the map (from Far West Tytheria, to Itherania) They can hold a +5, +2, +3, +3, +2 bonus for only 4 territories. +1 is enough. In fact I am also strongly considering removing the path from Thessisimess to Chunjaris, and haveing the remaining path (Chunjaris to Dalmus to Theraland, be dropped down to +1 as well.

Ok, I just had an idea, this is all very stream of consciousness so bear with me.

In the East: the norther pass should run from Hellengar to Tuskaroja to Itheria, to Theraland and should be worth +2. (I changed my mind that's a good idea because...)

The southern pass through the desert will only run from Chunjaris, to Dalmus, to Therraland, and be worth +1

I think this is a perfect compromise.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby mattattam on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:09 pm

I think you should make the changes so we can see it on the new map. Then I can give you better feedback. It's a lot of things to visualize at once.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:31 pm

Understood, I will when I get the chance. I probably won't have time till the weekend.

So if there are any idea's please speak up, It'll help me limit the number of drafts I have to redraw.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby mattattam on Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:36 pm

In the East: the norther pass should run from Hellengar to Tuskaroja to Itheria, to Theraland and should be worth +2. (I changed my mind that's a good idea because...)

The southern pass through the desert will only run from Chunjaris, to Dalmus, to Therraland, and be worth +1


I agree with both of these suggestions

That's pretty good but instead of ending it at Denmarn I think it might be better to end it in Northern Caprinthia. I'll probably drop it down to +3 or +4 If I do that.


I like this too. I think it should be a +3 bonus unless you want to add one more territory and make it +4
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby army of nobunaga on Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:29 pm

Im just going to toss thiss out there... I dont like "rails" on a "fantasy" map...
Why not make them dragon run hunting areas? or Magic Fae lines. Or make each point druid temples and if the run is connected it is a bonus.

Rails just dont fit the theme to me.

I do like the map though man.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:33 pm

instead of rail road tracks, Trade routes. Maybe a little reminiscent of Roman roads in places


About to play a game this very moment to test this out I'll let you know how it does.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:21 am

Now that's dedication lol ;)
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:27 pm

Update, The game last night went well. Actually it went really well, the rail bonuses turned out to be a real hit. We played with a relatively different version than the one I last posted. Some things were the same but the northern rail bonuses were totally different. The way we played was that any territory with a circle on it (station/city/fort/caste/druidic warp point, or whatever I'll get into that later) can attack any territory next to it (like and normal game) and the next territory along the path with a circle on it. This worked extremely well. It forced players to reinforce carefully, and to try to expand to meet this points for their own security. That being said I was also glad to see that it didn't command the way you had to play the game. Most player expanded in a very natural fashion and didn't feel forced to have to dogmatically fight over the rails. I didn't any way. Also the player who one started from the center (they started by taking and holding Livonia) which is pretty uncommon for any map, so I am real happy about that.

The only thing that didn't seem to work was making the islands start neutral. This made them really unappealing to take and no one really did, so I'll probably just start them as regular territories.

As for theme, I know some people are wanting dragons and dwarves and elfs and all that stuff. But the truth is that I'm just not into that kind of thing and have no real interest in writing "dwarven cave of wonders" on this map. When I original labeled this "New fantasy map" it only meant "fantasy" as in "Not Earth" or "Fictional" and kind of regret calling it that. And I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with being into that kind of stuff it's just not my bag.

I'm still really into calling them rail bonuses, because...

A) Trains are cool, I like trains.

B) It makes more sense, for trains to move faster.

But, I can sympathize with the claim that the maps aesthetic and color scheme does not really lend itself to a steam punk/industrial era. If enough people agree with this notion I am willing to pull it back and call the circles cities, or castles, and the paths roads, trade routes, or aqueducts. So trains Vs. roads Vs aqueducts: if you have an opinion voice it, this will effect the final product. Like I said though I'm still gunning for trains.

I'm going to work on the new draft this weekend and hopefully have it up (along with the updated design brief) by Sunday or Monday.

I've been putting a lot of work into this and I'm really hoping that this will move forward soon : )
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:46 pm

You might consider changing the title of the thread- get the work 'fantasy' out of there. I think it'll be an ongoing issue otherwise. EDIT: nm, you changed it as I posted-heh.

Visually, I don't like the look of the rails. They seem to clash with the soothing blends. But I think that can be fixed. You should keep the idea of trains, it's your world for goodness sake.

I like the thematic visuals otherwise, the ships in the water and the teasers that talk about Thysenal (although I think they could be sharpened up some, but again that's in the future).

Gameplay-wise, I like the addition of the rails and the bonus tweaking.

Anyway, I hope you're not feeling pressured by anyone to change the map from your original concept. It seems the rail idea is one that you like, but don't feel like you need to 'complicate' the gameplay just to satisfy people.

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Re: Thyseneal 1.1

Postby The Bison King on Sat May 01, 2010 11:40 pm

Image

Image

Forget Sunday or Monday, I got this shit done fast! So I guess I would call this version 1.1? I'm not really sure how it works.

Any way here's whats different.

Road bonuses obviously, hopefully they are clearly explained enough on the map.

I dropped the Tytherian bonus down to 4 because that road bonus sits entirely in. So once you take the whole bonus it's ultimately worth 6. Might be too much but maybe not. No one ever held the bonus last game.

I brought Ifnal back up to 4 because now the roads attack both Arleus and Ifnal it's harder to hold than it looks.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby The Bison King on Sat May 01, 2010 11:43 pm

I hope you're not feeling pressured by anyone to change the map from your original concept. It seems the rail idea is one that you like, but don't feel like you need to 'complicate' the gameplay just to satisfy people.


Thanks for the concern, but I am very pleased with how the roads turned out. It's not necessarily something I would have added on my own but I'm glad I did.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby army of nobunaga on Sun May 02, 2010 12:18 am

Im the minority here... And I hope you dont get mad. But you had one hellova map till you stuck a train in it.

seems like a gimmick to make a few ppl happy to me.

Its a little cheapened to me. You have a great map, great art, great bonus and region structure, and someone said add a fricking train so you did.

Id like to see some strippers in it.. can you add those?

anyway man. gl with the map
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby mattattam on Sun May 02, 2010 1:47 am

I do like the additions of the roads. :) It adds a different dynamic to the map that makes it more interesting.

My feedback on this version is I think there is too many road combinations. I feel how it is now puts more focus on the roads then on the countries. I think this could easily be resolved by taken away 1 or 2 of the road bonus's. Any 1 of the 3 in the southeast part would do. I think 6 road bonus's is enough. You may be able to get away with 7 though. Right now it's a bit much.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby The Bison King on Sun May 02, 2010 3:20 pm

Ok, I posted the new design brief.

army of nobunaga wrote:Im the minority here... And I hope you dont get mad. But you had one hellova map till you stuck a train in it.

seems like a gimmick to make a few ppl happy to me.

Its a little cheapened to me. You have a great map, great art, great bonus and region structure, and someone said add a fricking train so you did.

Id like to see some strippers in it.. can you add those?

anyway man. gl with the map


Thanks for the brutally honest input. The way I see it is this:

I'm glad that people like the original map, It's a good map, it doesn't need rail bonuses to be fun. However, I spent a great deal of time working out these road bonuses. They might look a bit complicated but I think once you start playing you'll find them pretty intuitive. They're good too, I'm sorry If not every one is into them. I can't make everyone happy and it seems that the more I try too the more I alienate people. If you guys want to hold a vote I would be more than happy to. I think that is a fair and democratic way to resolve this. Could someone please tell me how to hold a vote?.
Last edited by The Bison King on Sun May 02, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby natty dread on Sun May 02, 2010 3:24 pm

Could someone please tell me how to hold a vote?


Edit your first post. In the lower edge of the page is a tab that says "poll creation" click that and enter the poll title and options and other stuff.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby The Bison King on Sun May 02, 2010 3:38 pm

Thank you
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